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Thread: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

  1. #176
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Isn't it amazing how some folks have such accurate knowledge of what would have happened had the Democrats nominated somebody else? For some of us, alternate history is fiction; not for these guys.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  2. #177
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    All I care about is next month's election. That's the thing to concentrate on, not 2016.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    That bit of sophistry seriously misstate my views. I'm giving you an F on it. If that's the way you're going to argue, there's not much point in telling you what I think.
    John,

    I may be a bit slow on the uptake and probably misunderstood your point. I think this comment got stuck in my head:

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Why is it necessary for the Democrats to abase themselves for selecting the imperfect candidate who got more votes?
    Which I read as a claim that voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes. Which makes no sense. But on re-reading, it seems like you are saying, it is the party DELEGATES who selected her because she got more votes. Which I completely agree with. The delegates did the right thing, going with the popular vote in favor of Clinton. So I think we are in agreement there?

    Perhaps my comments about strategy for 2020 are getting mixed up in the heated rhetoric in this thread. I am not "blaming" anyone. 2016 is over. I am suggesting that, since we tried a moderate candidate and it failed spectacularly, it makes more sense to embrace a progressive candidate and progressive platform for 2020. Repeating a failed strategy makes little sense.

    There has been some notable success among Democratic Socialist candidates at state and local levels, as I posted earlier. Yet the party is wary of following up. Why? As you have said repeatedly, you will vote for ANY Democrat. I myself DID vote for Clinton, despite my strong preference for Sanders, and my belief that primary voters had chosen the weaker candidate. So the party could run a progressive candidate, not lose their base, and pick up millions of young voters.

    That's my point on this thread. My only point.

    But instead of doing that, I see Democrats here doubling down on the failed strategy, and scolding progressives (who already have reason to mistrust the party, not just for their treatment of Sanders, but for the lip service they pay to progressive ideals), basically treating them like naughty children and blaming their own loss on them. See David G's meme for an example.

    I worry that mainstream Democrats now seem intent on alienating progressives rather than reaching out to them. But they already know that, given a candidate they don't feel represents them, some progressives and independents will stay home, or (worse) even vote for another Trump. Scolding people for sincere beliefs and values, I can assure you, will NOT bring them back into the fold.

    Do enough to condescend and scold progressives, and they may start a third party. Some of them, rightly or wrongly, will feel there is nothing to lose if the current party makes it clear they are not welcome, and their views not represented. By definition, progressives tend toward more extreme positions than centrists and moderates. Expecting the more extreme branch to do the necessary compromising for unity seems misguided if not downright silly.

    Again, the base will vote for ANY Democrat. Progressives and independents will not, as seen in 2016.

    The implication is stunningly clear. If you want unity, it's the mainstream Democrats who need to compromise. Embrace the future. Pick a candidate who appeals to the young.

    I'd be interested in your response to these ideas, if we can both set aside questions of blame and address pragmatic stategic issues.

    Tom
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  4. #179
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Isn't it amazing how some folks have such accurate knowledge of what would have happened had the Democrats nominated somebody else? For some of us, alternate history is fiction; not for these guys.
    If I am part of the "folks" you have in mind, you don't have a clue about what I think. If not, ignore this comment.

    Either way, I'd be interested to hear your reaction to my thoughts in post #191.

    Tom
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  5. #180
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    The perfect is the enemy of the good.
    More importantly, the "good enough" makes "the good" impossible.

    Tom
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  6. #181
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Good lord, what hypocrisy!

    You, Tom, and McMike support the proposition that "Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    . . . they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate. Trump will win a second term unless the Democratic Party exposes their flawed judgement and apologizes. You want votes, clean up the spilt milk."

    And you claim it's other people who are intent on placing blame? Not Mr. Self-Aware today, are you? In one breath you say, "the problem is with the Dem leadership" and in the next you claim others are "bunkering down behind an "It's your fault" attitude."'

    Is that supposed to make sense?

    In addition, you label people who would have been happy to vote for Bernie, had he been the nominee, "Dem machine supporters." Well, no, they are people who would have been happy to support your candidate had he been nominated. I don't give a fig about the machine, I just don't think Trump ought to be president. The way to achieve that is to elect someone else, not to keep moaning about the imperfections of the candidate or to keep "bunkering down behind an 'it's your fault attitude'" by berating those who opposed Trump.

    You seem to think Hillary and the DNC are to blame for Trump. The people to blame for Trump are those who voted for him, and those who didn't vote against him. The strategy of blaming your allies for the loss of the battle makes no sense at all.
    Well I sure didn't 'splain my viewpoint well - or maybe I'm misunderstanding? I sure have seen plenty of Bernie blaming here. However, the past is the past, except when you repeat the same mistake.

    Just what is the DNC doing differently this time around? What I see is the same old same old - support the more conservative candidate until "Oh dear, that prog won - now what do we do?" like they did in NY? Have they brought any progressive folks into the fold? Ellison was supposed to be - but he has plenty of issues + he immediately backed off & toed the party line when he got the 2nd slot.

    The DNC could be truly democratic (small "d") & support all candidates instead of showing favoritism - that'd be a big step.

    I never said HRC & the DNC are to blame for Trump. Idjuts voting for him & idjuts staying home & not voting are - but I believe the DNC played a role in the people staying home - as I said.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  7. #182
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Democrats will never get redemption until they end their self-flagellation over the 2016 presidential election.
    War is peace.
    Freedom is slavery.
    Ignorance is strength.
    Trump is doing beautifully.





  8. #183
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    It would also help if they accepted the fact that Hillary Clinton was an exceptionally well-qualified candidate, whose failure to win the election had more to do with decades of smears from the opposition than any shortcomings of her own. Crystal ball (or navel) gazing in search of alternate history aside, it is not at all clear that any Democrat candidate could have beat Turnip.

    What are you doing about it?




  9. #184
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    I voted for the best, most qualified presidential candidate. The election’s result is the responsibility of those who did not do so.
    War is peace.
    Freedom is slavery.
    Ignorance is strength.
    Trump is doing beautifully.





  10. #185
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    The perfect is the enemy of the good.
    I've been doing various bits of political organizing since high school... and this remains one of our most challenging truisms.

    I'd modify the comment above that idealism leads to bitterness in old age. Only if one fails to learn, adjust, and temper one's rigidity about ideological perfection.
    Last edited by David G; 10-09-2018 at 09:56 AM.
    David G
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  11. #186
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I voted for the best, most qualified presidential candidate. The election’s result is the responsibility of those who did not do so.
    As did I & I agree with this 100%. However, what factors caused people to not do this? That's what I & others have been commenting on.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  12. #187
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Montgomery View Post
    I voted for the best, most qualified presidential candidate. The election’s result is the responsibility of those who did not do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    As did I & I agree with this 100%. However, what factors caused people to not do this? That's what I & others have been commenting on.
    I am sure that many people voted for other reasons.

    I personally vote for people who share my values. Neither party seems to do so.
    Life is complex.

  13. #188
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    All I care about is next month's election. That's the thing to concentrate on, not 2016.

    Jeff C
    Once again...

    Jeff C

  14. #189
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I worry that mainstream Democrats now seem intent on alienating progressives rather than reaching out to them. But they already know that, given a candidate they don't feel represents them, some progressives and independents will stay home, or (worse) even vote for another Trump. Scolding people for sincere beliefs and values, I can assure you, will NOT bring them back into the fold.
    To progressives and moderates alike: what's more important than stopping Trump, and what he represents? The ship is sinking. Priorities.
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  15. #190
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post


    Which I read as a claim that voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes. Which makes no sense.
    Gee Willikers!

    I think you should re-read that assertion several times until you understand what a non-sensical pile of mush it is!'

    WOW!!!


    What part of 'The voters selected Clinton because they selected Clinton' makes no sense?
    Rattling the teacups.

  16. #191
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Again, the base will vote for ANY Democrat. Progressives and independents will not, as seen in 2016.

    The implication is stunningly clear. If you want unity, it's the mainstream Democrats who need to compromise. Embrace the future. Pick a candidate who appeals to the young.
    It seems to me that progressives should be part of the base. As you yourself voted for Clinton because you sure didn't want Trump.

    The people who need to be convinced are the ones between the two bases, no?

    Best,
    Chris
    "Where we would wish to reform we must not reproach." -Thomas Paine

  17. #192
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Gee Willikers!

    I think you should re-read that assertion several times until you understand what a non-sensical pile of mush it is!'

    WOW!!!


    What part of 'The voters selected Clinton because they selected Clinton' makes no sense?
    What are you even saying here?

    Tom
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  19. #194
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by CPF View Post
    It seems to me that progressives should be part of the base.
    Why? When's the last time the Democratic party ran a progressive candidate in a national election?

    It's this exact assumption--"Of course progressives are a part of our base"--that has got the Democratic party in trouble. 12% of voters who identify as Democrats or "lean" Democratic voted for Trump. That's 12% they were assuming they had, but didn't.

    If the Democrats want progressives to join them, they have to actually begin to offer them some representation. If the only choice they offer is "Vote for the lesser of two evils," that doesn't work so well. As in, Trump is President. Q.E.D. And it won't get young people to vote, either. It's a position that's demographically unsustainable, just like Republicans being hostile to non-white people who will soon be the majority.

    Tom
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  20. #195
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    What are you even saying here?

    Tom
    Which I read as a claim that voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes. Which makes no sense.
    I'm saying that Clinton got more votes, therefore the voters selected Clinton.

    Somehow you twist the incontrovertible FACT that Clinton got more votes into some sort of evidence that Clinton didn't get more votes.

    You really should snap to the fact that this is what we call electoral politics.

    Clinton got more votes, therefore she became the candidate.

    It really is that simple.
    Rattling the teacups.

  21. #196
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    To progressives and moderates alike: what's more important than stopping Trump, and what he represents? The ship is sinking. Priorities.
    That's why I'm suggesting throwing away the colander they used in 2016 and bailing with a bucket instead.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I'm saying that Clinton got more votes, therefore the voters selected Clinton.
    Nonsense. Yes, Clinton got more votes. The fact that she got more votes is not WHY she got more votes, as your "therefore" implies. People did not vote for her BECAUSE she got more votes. It's the other way around.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Somehow you twist the incontrovertible FACT that Clinton got more votes into some sort of evidence that Clinton didn't get more votes.
    Now you're just making stuff up, or complete failing to understand basic English. Of course she got more votes. I never said she didn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    You really should snap to the fact that this is what we call electoral politics.
    Except nothing about it is a "fact." It's your subjective interpretation of how we should do politics. You're embracing the rules that Republicans live by--win for the party at all costs. I'm not.

    Tom
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  23. #198
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    ...scolding progressives...basically treating them like naughty children...condescend and scold progressives...


    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Hyperbole.
    Not to progressives. To them, it's reality. It doesn't matter what moderate Democrats think about it. Progressive voters won't be making decisions based on what moderate voters think.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Obama was a once-in-a-generation candidate. And he was a moderate.
    Debatable:

    I think he campaigned as a progressive (Yes we can!)--at least the first time around--but governed as a moderate. And in so doing, disappointed a lot of the people who voted for him to some degree.

    Tom
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  24. #199
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Nonsense. Yes, Clinton got more votes. The fact that she got more votes is not WHY she got more votes, as your "therefore" implies. People did not vote for her BECAUSE she got more votes. It's the other way around.


    OK. Either way around, she got more votes.

    That's what we call 'electoral politics'.

    You should look it up sometime when you have a little time to kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Now you're just making stuff up, or complete failing to understand basic English. Of course she got more votes. I never said she didn't.


    Then what's the rumpus?

    Are you saying we should abandon democracy because Bernie was such a poor candidate?

    I mean, Jeeze Louise, he couldn't even beat Clinton!

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Except nothing about it is a "fact." It's your subjective interpretation of how we should do politics. You're embracing the rules that Republicans live by--win for the party at all costs. I'm not.

    Tom
    Uhhhh, no.

    A cold-hearted, completely objective analysis of the facts of the matter would reveal to you that Clinton won the nomination because she got more votes.

    You seem incapable of such an analysis.

    Shall I call you a waaahmbulance?

    The people who abandoned the Democratic Party candidate and voted for Trump because they got their widdle feewings hurt are nothing more than lazy, irresponsible morons.
    Rattling the teacups.

  25. #200
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Wow. Oz - you are so misinterpreting most everything - I'm shocked.

    What's being suggested is NOT that progressives take over the party or that Bernie got more votes or really even anything about 2016.

    What IS being said is that the Dem party needs to open the umbrella wider & support progressives as well as moderates. There are races other than the presidential one - from Senate all the way to local dog catcher. There's no room for a progressive in there anywhere?

    You & some others here are showing exactly what is wrong with today's Dem party - if you ain't middle of the road, we don't want to know nuthin' about you.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  26. #201
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    Wow. Oz - you are so misinterpreting most everything - I'm shocked.

    What's being suggested is NOT that progressives take over the party or that Bernie got more votes or really even anything about 2016.

    What IS being said is that the Dem party needs to open the umbrella wider & support progressives as well as moderates. There are races other than the presidential one - from Senate all the way to local dog catcher. There's no room for a progressive in there anywhere?

    You & some others here are showing exactly what is wrong with today's Dem party - if you ain't middle of the road, we don't want to know nuthin' about you.




    Personally, I think the Democratic Party should simply own the fact that they have become the right-of-center stalwart party, just as the Republican Party of old.

    That way, when the 'Republican' Party gets swallowed up in the Maw of Satan, we can form a decent left-of-center party, and get on about our lives.



    That said, I would like it VERY MUCH if the Berniacs would quit whining.


    Hillary Clinton GOT MORE VOTES THAN BERNIE.

    They can dance and moan and whine and blame the DNC for Trump; they can pretend Santa Claus will bring them another O'Bama; they can wheedle and stamp their little feet and hold their breaths until they turn blue and pass out, but HILLARY GOT MORE VOTES THAN BERNIE.

    That is electoral politics.

    If we progressives want a louder voice in US electoral politics, then we need to get up off our lazy, entitled, apathetic keesters and elect Democrats for the simple reason that 'Republicans' are criminals.

    The wretched, 'disaffected' morons who defected to Trump in 2016 are in effect accomplices to treason.

    At one time the Democratic Party was actually left-of-center, believe it or not. Progressives need to understand that the reason the Ds have moved rightward these 40 years and more is that the 'progressive' element ALLOWED IT TO DO SO.

    It's like getting fat. You put on a pound a month, and within 5 years you're a total slob.

    Turning the Democratic Party back onto the right path is like losing that 60 pounds.

    You DON'T go home and blow your brains out, you start to eat less and exercise more.



    You DON'T throw a childish tantrum and vote for Trump, you vote for Hillary and then hold her feet to the fire.

    Personally, I am sick unto death of being cast as some sort of 'conservative' because I can not tolerate the sort of childish, self-involved twaddle that the Berniacs use to destroy any chance we may have of getting rid of the greed-driven, racist, misogynist, white-male-supremacist monster the so-called 'Republican' Party has become.
    Rattling the teacups.

  27. #202
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Just heard on the radio that Michael Bloomberg just re-registered as a democrat.

    So, much for our dear leaders comment that democrats want to turn the country into Valenzuela.
    Tom

    "Leave the gun, take the cannolis"

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    John,

    I may be a bit slow on the uptake and probably misunderstood your point. I think this comment got stuck in my head:



    Which I read as a claim that voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes. Which makes no sense. But on re-reading, it seems like you are saying, it is the party DELEGATES who selected her because she got more votes. Which I completely agree with. The delegates did the right thing, going with the popular vote in favor of Clinton. So I think we are in agreement there?
    Of course your straw man argument makes no sense. That's why no one ever made it. However, I see that you are still pretending someone has made that argument on page 7 of this thread, so apparently you still find the straw man too useful to abandon. In so doing, you are not using discourse to discover truth, you are using it to comfort yourself that you need not answer the points your interlocutors are actually making, therefore can continue to regard them as poo-heads.

    I have no idea what "voters selected Clinton BECAUSE she got more votes" would mean, unless it means she got more delegate votes because she got more support in the primaries and caucuses, which is the clear meaning of what I and Oz have said on this thread. If you agree with that, what's with all the sound an fury of claiming we are wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Perhaps my comments about strategy for 2020 are getting mixed up in the heated rhetoric in this thread. I am not "blaming" anyone. 2016 is over. I am suggesting that, since we tried a moderate candidate and it failed spectacularly, it makes more sense to embrace a progressive candidate and progressive platform for 2020. Repeating a failed strategy makes little sense.

    There has been some notable success among Democratic Socialist candidates at state and local levels, as I posted earlier. Yet the party is wary of following up. Why? As you have said repeatedly, you will vote for ANY Democrat. I myself DID vote for Clinton, despite my strong preference for Sanders, and my belief that primary voters had chosen the weaker candidate. So the party could run a progressive candidate, not lose their base, and pick up millions of young voters.

    That's my point on this thread. My only point.

    But instead of doing that, I see Democrats here doubling down on the failed strategy, and scolding progressives (who already have reason to mistrust the party, not just for their treatment of Sanders, but for the lip service they pay to progressive ideals), basically treating them like naughty children and blaming their own loss on them. See David G's meme for an example.

    I worry that mainstream Democrats now seem intent on alienating progressives rather than reaching out to them. But they already know that, given a candidate they don't feel represents them, some progressives and independents will stay home, or (worse) even vote for another Trump. Scolding people for sincere beliefs and values, I can assure you, will NOT bring them back into the fold.

    Do enough to condescend and scold progressives, and they may start a third party. Some of them, rightly or wrongly, will feel there is nothing to lose if the current party makes it clear they are not welcome, and their views not represented. By definition, progressives tend toward more extreme positions than centrists and moderates. Expecting the more extreme branch to do the necessary compromising for unity seems misguided if not downright silly.

    Again, the base will vote for ANY Democrat. Progressives and independents will not, as seen in 2016.

    The implication is stunningly clear. If you want unity, it's the mainstream Democrats who need to compromise. Embrace the future. Pick a candidate who appeals to the young.

    I'd be interested in your response to these ideas, if we can both set aside questions of blame and address pragmatic stategic issues.

    Tom
    Do enough to scold and condescend to Democrats, and they will conclude you are not interested in defeating Trump. Most of the time, third party candidates do nothing but split the opposition vote and guarantee victory for people like Gov. LePage, who would be quite incapable of winning a majority on his own.

    Look, 2020 will not be a repeat of 2016. Emphasizing the discord of 2016 will not ensure success in 2020. This thread started with the resentment Berniacs feel against the Democratic Party, and it doesn't seem to have moved past it. If you want to see a more progressive candidate in 2020, the way forward is not re-litigating 2016. Nor is scolding people who would have been happy to vote for Bernie if he'd gained enough support in the primaries and caucuses to be the nominee.

    And if progressives won't vote for the most progressive candidate who has a chance of winning, they'll have to live with the fact that they will get someone like Trump as a consequence. As previously stated, I'd have been glad to vote for Bernie, I'd be delighted to vote for Warren, but if they don't make it, I'll vote for the best candidate who has a shot at winning. To do otherwise would be a dereliction of my duty as a citizen.

    As you've noted, progressives have had substantial success this year under the Democratic banner. Obviously, the party is happy to have such candidates if they can get enough support. But if they are to be a big-tent party, they are going to have to give other candidates a shot as well, and if those candidates get the most support in the primaries, they shouldn't jerk the rug out because they aren't progressive enough. Yet that seems to be what some of Bernie's supporters think should have happened in 2016, and because it didn't happen, we continue to get threads like this one, where they blame the Democrats for not picking the more progressive candidate, rather than the one who gained the most support in the primaries and caucuses. Is that what you mean by compromise? Because frankly, it looks like Bernie had a pretty good shot at the nomination, progressive values, not being a registered Democrat, and all, he just didn't win. He was an insurgent candidate. Insurgent candidates, by definition, are those who don't rely on the party, and if they can win without that, more power to them.

    Maybe we should have a better process for selecting candidates. Maybe we should have a better voting system than first-past-the-post. But we have the process we have, and it looks to me like the Democratic Party gives progressives their best chance of gaining power within that process. Given that this is the case, what precisely are you expecting of the Democrats? That they become the far-left party the Republicans claim they are, and abandon the big-tent approach that includes moderates?

  29. #204
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Nonsense. Yes, Clinton got more votes. The fact that she got more votes is not WHY she got more votes, as your "therefore" implies. People did not vote for her BECAUSE she got more votes. It's the other way around.
    This paragraph should be taken out and shot. It makes no sense.

  30. #205
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    That paragraph confused the hell out of me as well. It still confuses the hell out of me.
    War is peace.
    Freedom is slavery.
    Ignorance is strength.
    Trump is doing beautifully.





  31. #206
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Good sir! We are a civilized country! We do not line up and shoot paragraphs which are clearly stark, raving mad!
    You must be thinking of Canada.

  32. #207
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Now THAT is "so much winning".

    What are you doing about it?




  33. #208
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Well, OK, let's waterboard it first though, it might give up some useful intel.
    .

  34. #209
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    That said, I would like it VERY MUCH if the Berniacs would quit whining.


    Hillary Clinton GOT MORE VOTES THAN BERNIE.
    Again, Good For You. She lost, to Trump. I was right and you were wrong. You're still wrong. This thread wasn't about me initially, it was about all of the votes that were lost when the DNC decided to ordain Clinton. The effing hubris, and you're still carrying it on. You want votes? . . . the DNC had better understand, very carefully, my opinion in the OP. They want to lose again, keep it up, keep up acting like you and Two'y and Keith. Keep acting like the folks that will vote Democrat are so simple, so single minded, like most Republican voters, that they will swallow any line spoken to get a vote. They won't. It would be great if everybody would understand that the only way to beat Trump is to unify . . . but thinks just ain't that bad yet, they have to be won over. You wanna talk about the politics of fear? You guys spend a lot of time telling me why I should fear Trump, but very little time coming up with solutions other than telling me to do as I'm told for my own good.

    I gotta say, this thread as done more damage to my perception of the Democratic party than HC could have ever done. You guys think you've got all the answers, so much so, that you will lose it again in 2020. Effing stupid.

    SHE LOST!!!!!! I was right and you were wrong. Yet you and others here keep up the condescending BS. Guess what; that's how we lose again.

    Cheese and rice, how many times can Tom say it differently? You cant even hear a smart guy with his sh17 together without trying to make him look stupid. It's embarrassing to watch . . .
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

  35. #210
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    keep up acting like you and Two'y

    How am I acting? My initial statement was that you will attack and attack and attack and attack until people agree exactly with you, and at post #225 that assessment stands uncorrected. My counter-argument has been that 2016 was not simple, and many, many factors contributed to Hillary's loss, with the dynamic changing over the course of the year. We did not do the experiment where we ran Bernie in the general, and so we have no data on that outcome, it is pure speculation. Obama was a once-in-a-generation candidate, and neither Bernie or Hillary were up to that comparison. Trump was a once-in-a-generation freakazoid. Moving forward I agree that the most charismatic, unifying candidate will have the best chance, but we should be cautioned that a far left candidate, or a third party candidate, might be poisoned in the general as a communist.
    bccphalarope(dot)com

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