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Thread: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

  1. #1
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    Default Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    . . . they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate. Trump will win a second term unless the Democratic Party exposes their flawed judgement and apologizes. You want votes, clean up the spilt milk.
    Last edited by McMike; 10-07-2018 at 07:56 AM. Reason: Wording if/unless
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Perhaps the GOP continues to demonize Hillary because they have no one as qualified as she is, let-alone a qualified (god forbid) woman.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    . . . they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate. Trump will win a second term if the Democratic Party exposes their flawed judgement and apologizes. You want votes, clean up the spilt milk.
    I think most of them have already said they have.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    We get it. We got it. You're framing it, as you have framed it before. There are other ways to frame it, but you are not listening, as you didn't listen before. We went over it before, as you wish to do again. We get it. We got it.
    NO you don't get it. YOU were condescending when I warned you all during the primaries and now all you want to do forget what got us here. We're fooked because YOU and people like you don't get IT. Not so smart for a smart guy, are you?
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Perhaps the GOP continues to demonize Hillary because they have no one as qualified as she is, let-alone a qualified (god forbid) woman.
    They would demonize Jesus if he were running against a Republican, the Democrats need to operate within that reality or Trump will win again.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by S.V. Airlie View Post
    I think most of them have already said they have.
    No, they haven't.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    I am smart enough to see that you will argue and argue and argue until people agree to exactly your point of view. Going forward we don't need that mindset, they prey upon that mindset.
    Okay, fair point but still doesn't address that many Trump voters would have voted for Sanders or wouldn't have voted at all had Clinton not been a candidate. How does the Democratic Party gain back their trust? Certainly not by denial.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    . . . they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate. Trump will win a second term if the Democratic Party exposes their flawed judgement and apologizes. You want votes, clean up the spilt milk.
    https://www.usnews.com/news/economy/...-as-debt-rises
    US household net worth increased by $39 trillion from the depths of the recession in 2008 until the end of 2016. Most of it went to those in the top 10%. Based on that it looks like Obama was a horrible president as far as the bottom 90% are concerned.

    The Democrats might talk a good game, but they don't do much for the lower income voters.

    ($39 trillion is about the net worth of China. And it went to the US rich.)
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Perhaps the GOP continues to demonize Hillary because they have no one as qualified as she is, let-alone a qualified (god forbid) woman.
    Exactly. The fact that she is and was the most qualified is irrelevant to the right, that makes her a member of the elite, people who know something about their field and are therefore unaccecptable. The lack of external genitalia is the ultimate reason for disapproval.
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    https://www.usnews.com/news/economy/...-as-debt-rises
    US household net worth increased by $39 trillion from the depths of the recession in 2008 until the end of 2016. Most of it went to those in the top 10%. Based on that it looks like Obama was a horrible president as far as the bottom 90% are concerned.

    The Democrats might talk a good game, but they don't do much for the lower income voters.

    ($39 trillion is about the net worth of China. And it went to the US rich.)
    I agree, which is what HC stood for as well. The only defense I can muster for Obama is that he was a completely neutered POTUS due to Republicans forgoing the good of the country in order to destroy a president that was more a man than all of them combined. Obama was not a great president but by all measures, a far better president and leader than the entirety of the Republican party combined. So, yeah, you can talk sh17 about Obama, bottom line, the lack-luster result of his presidency is dwarfed by how literately shi77y the Republicans and Trump are.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    We had a choice, Trump or Clinton, as if anyone had to even think about that for a nanosecond.

    That fact that you "warned us" will never elect anyone else, it's over.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    I voted for HRC even though I thought the whole thing was rigged. However, it’s not fair to just blame her. We need new leadership. If we get the house back we need a different speaker, one that more resembles the new candidates that won the house, if we win the senate, Schumer has to go also. Clean house I say.
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    They would demonize Jesus if he were running against a Republican, the Democrats need to operate within that reality or Trump will win again.
    If the US electorate is willing to run with that you are totally and irredeemably screwed.
    Joseph de Maistre nailed it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    Maybe by Sanders showing a spine and bringing them back to the Dems. It is a problem that Independant Sanders tried a coup of the Democratic party.
    This tells me you still don't get it. They were never his to give back. His message was/is simply better. He has been on the right side of history on several key issues where, specifically, Clinton ranged from totally tone deaf to vilely complicit.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    If the US electorate is willing to run with that you are totally and irredeemably screwed.
    Joseph de Maistre nailed it.
    We need to fight on the field we've ended up on. Complaining that it was too muddy or there was too much cover is whining and not taking responsibility for and facing reality.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    We need to fight on the field we've ended up on. Complaining that it was too muddy or there was too much cover is whining and not taking responsibility for and facing reality.
    That is a given.
    Continuing the fight analogy, what weapons do you use against Dunning Kruger stupidity?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    No, I get it. I got it every other time that you've argued this. Ralph Nader, Bernie Sanders...
    Blame, blame, blame. Every other time, you've blamed. Why wasn't Obama overshadowed?
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    That is a given.
    Continuing the fight analogy, what weapons do you use against Dunning Kruger stupidity?
    That's a good question. Certainly not one we've used before, successfully or not.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by CK 17 View Post
    I voted for HRC even though I thought the whole thing was rigged. However, it’s not fair to just blame her. We need new leadership. If we get the house back we need a different speaker, one that more resembles the new candidates that won the house, if we win the senate, Schumer has to go also. Clean house I say.
    I agree 100%
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    . . . they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate. Trump will win a second term if the Democratic Party exposes their flawed judgement and apologizes. You want votes, clean up the spilt milk.

    I've saying that since before the 2008 election. Perfectly qualified. She'd be absolutely competent at running the country -- if less than charismatic.

    And almost certainly unelectable because she carries a lot of political baggage, right or wrongly earned. And because, for reasons I can't fathom, she evinces enormous antipathy in a lot of people across the political spectrum. That's a lot of ground you have to make up just to get to par.

    The fact she came as close as she did -- twice! -- is a credit to here political chops.

    I'm still convinced that the powers that be in the Democratic Party leaned hard on a lot of people to NOT run. It was extremely odd to me this last time around that until Bernie Sanders tossed his hat in the ring, she was essentially the only Democrat in the race. I find it difficult to believe that after 8 years of a highly popular Democratic President, that virtually nobody in the Party was interested in replacing Obama.
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    I agree, which is what HC stood for as well. The only defense I can muster for Obama is that he was a completely neutered POTUS due to Republicans forgoing the good of the country in order to destroy a president that was more a man than all of them combined. Obama was not a great president but by all measures, a far better president and leader than the entirety of the Republican party combined. So, yeah, you can talk sh17 about Obama, bottom line, the lack-luster result of his presidency is dwarfed by how literately shi77y the Republicans and Trump are.
    My suggestion was that the Democrats have promised those who are not rich something and have not produced. The cause does not matter.

    You might notice that the ACA required the poor to pay premiums and copays. I found that not only objectionable but also intentionally punishing to the poor. With all responsibility on the Democrats.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    And you aren't placing blame?
    Yes, now answer my question.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    So, you admonished me for placing blame, yet you do it yourself.

    I don't place blame on any one thing. It was a lot of little things, which were impossible to foresee.

    That is the difference.

    As for your question, I do not understand it, Obama being overshadowed.
    Whay wasn’t there a Sanders or Nader?
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    My suggestion was that the Democrats have promised those who are not rich something and have not produced. The cause does not matter.

    You might notice that the ACA required the poor to pay premiums and copays. I found that not only objectionable but also intentionally punishing to the poor. With all responsibility on the Democrats.
    Actually that was the Repugnicans who foisted the deal onto Obama.

    Almost everything wrong with your nation is wrong because of the Repugnicans. They're the ones lighting the fires and then calling the fire brigade to come put it out for them. Friggin' Nazis to a tee.
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    My suggestion was that the Democrats have promised those who are not rich something and have not produced. The cause does not matter.

    You might notice that the ACA required the poor to pay premiums and copays. I found that not only objectionable but also intentionally punishing to the poor. With all responsibility on the Democrats.
    You're also missing a fundamental point in that lots and lots (millions in fact) of the poor of the USA suddenly had actual health insurance meaning they could afford to do things like get life saving treatments, even if their out of pocket expenses were slightly increased.

    At least they didn't have to chose between death or bankruptcy.
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    I don't know. I don't think that it is an interesting question.

    Obama, and Trump, are highly unusual candidates.
    You’re being intentionally obtuse. Obama was a great candidate, he spoke to most people and made people believe. No one could hold a candle to him. Sanders did not steal votes, she coulden’t Win them.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    . . . they admit that Hillary Clinton was a huge mistake and a horrible candidate. Trump will win a second term if the Democratic Party exposes their flawed judgement and apologizes. You want votes, clean up the spilt milk.
    Exactly the attitude that gave us Trump. The fact is, Clinton won the nomination by getting more votes. If Sanders had got more votes, he would have been the candidate. And I don't think Hillary's supporters would have sat on their hands rather than vote against Trump.

    So, first Sanders didn't get enough votes to win the nomination, because there are parts of the Democratic coalition that preferred Clinton, then some of Sanders' supporters were too petulant to support the progressive candidate against one that was cartoonishly evil.

    Yeah, that's Hillary's fault.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    No, I just don't think that your mental rigidity is the way to move forward. We are both left, I just think that it is better to try to push left, rather than try to pull left and fail.
    My mental rigidity was proven correct. The democrats don’t need to push or pull, they need to lead.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    My mental rigidity was proven correct. The democrats don’t need to push or pull, they need to lead.
    I think the general point is that as soon as it became a choice between Trump and Clinton and not Trump and Sanders there was only one choice. The moral and civic abrogation was on the part of disgruntled Sanders supporters either sitting out the vote, or, worse still, voting for Trump.

    Such abrogation was pure idiocy, and blaming Clinton is a poor excuse for this failure on the part of these numbskulls and their actions that effectively delivered The Planet Earth presidenT trumP. Well plucking done! Good job!

    THIS is the reality of the battlefield my friend. Nothing else.

    Look up the history of the Australian's Greens not supporting the first Cap and Trade carbon exchange legislation in Australia - because it wasn't perfect enough - and how it lead to a leadership vacuum on the Left here and delivered us a slew of cretinous rabid right wing governments at both state and Federal levels in Australia.

    NOT voting for Clinton was the act of giving us all the truculent slob you have as POTUS now.

    Gough Whitlam, one of our greatest prime ministers once chastised his side of politics for the impotency of the ideologically pure.
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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Exactly the attitude that gave us Trump.
    Yup.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    My mental rigidity was proven correct. The democrats don’t need to push or pull, they need to lead.
    And you need to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    I think the general point is that as soon as it became a choice between Trump and Clinton and not Trump and Sanders there was only one choice. The moral and civic abrogation was on the part of disgruntled Sanders supporters either sitting out the vote, or, worse still, voting for Trump.

    Such abrogation was pure idiocy, and blaming Clinton is a poor excuse for this failure on the part of these numbskulls and their actions that effectively delivered The Planet Earth presidenT trumP. Well plucking done! Good job!

    THIS is the reality of the battlefield my friend. Nothing else.

    Look up the history of the Australian's Greens not supporting the first Cap and Trade carbon exchange legislation in Australia - because it wasn't perfect enough - and how it lead to a leadership vacuum on the Left here and delivered us a slew of cretinous rabid right wing governments at both state and Federal levels in Australia.

    NOT voting for Clinton was the act of giving us all the truculent slob you have as POTUS now.

    Gough Whitlam, one of our greatest prime ministers once chastised his side of politics for the impotency of the ideologically pure.

    Yup.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    I think the general point is that as soon as it became a choice between Trump and Clinton and not Trump and Sanders there was only one choice. The moral and civic abrogation was on the part of disgruntled Sanders supporters either sitting out the vote, or, worse still, voting for Trump.

    Such abrogation was pure idiocy, and blaming Clinton is a poor excuse for this failure on the part of these numbskulls and their actions that effectively delivered The Planet Earth presidenT trumP. Well plucking done! Good job!

    THIS is the reality of the battlefield my friend. Nothing else.

    Look up the history of the Australian's Greens not supporting the first Cap and Trade carbon exchange legislation in Australia - because it wasn't perfect enough - and how it lead to a leadership vacuum on the Left here and delivered us a slew of cretinous rabid right wing governments at both state and Federal levels in Australia.

    NOT voting for Clinton was the act of giving us all the truculent slob you have as POTUS now.

    Gough Whitlam, one of our greatest prime ministers once chastised his side of politics for the impotency of the ideologically pure.
    I voted for the scum Clinton for the reason you state. The more I talk to Trump voters, the more it comes out that they felt the same way about Trump, they held their nose for the less evil candidate. My only disagreement with them is that they judged the worst of the two poorly. Do you get what an idiotic argument it is to have about who was the worse candidate? If I have a hard time differentiating the scale of shi77y, and I'm relatively well informed, how the heck can the rest of the them decide. That's on the Democrats. If the Democracy part of this democratic republic is to survive, we need to figure out how to dissolve the cynicism. I've been spending that last 6 months guilting Millennials into registering to vote, for anyone, someone, just f43ing vote. The most prevalent thing I hear; my vote doesn't matter. That they only get to vote from a pool of folks that have been chosen for them. That is where Clintion is a huge source of a lack of trust. They see Trump as the Republicans giving the people a choice. Effed up, I know, but that's the reality and it is fully the DNC's and Clinton's fault. Until that is addressed by the DNC, they will find it very hard to field candidates.
    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    We have gone over this exact same argument before.

    The same accusations, and the same rebuttal.

    All that is missing is for someone to claim that Hillary voted for the Iraq war.
    She made this speech fully understanding the conventional thinking that Sanders expressed a day before, almost prophetically, I might add. She knew full well what she was voting for and where it would lead, if Sanders knew, she knew, she is clearly more intelligent than he and clearly had, at the time, vastly more experience with such decisions than he, being in the White House for 8 years. Keep making excuses and trying to paint people like me as fringe, that's the condescension I'm talking about. It's insulting.

    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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    Default Re: Democrats will never get redemption until . . .

    In the US this perverted idea of “blood and soil” over “constitutional principles” is the most radical and anti-democratic and anti-Conservative idea I have heard in my lifetime.

    ~C. Ross

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