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Thread: Dynel and peel -ply

  1. #1
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    Default Dynel and peel -ply

    Just done my whole deck yesterday. When I came out this morning I could see sorta white freckles thtrough peel-ply and when peeled back these were resin starved areas. The weave of dynel has not filled totally ( damn hard to tell when you have enough goop on) .
    my plan to fix this is to squeegee another coat of epoxy and re- peelply it.
    does anyone know if this works ??
    if I just coat it I’d be up for sanding.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I've never used dynel but I expect that you will have to cut or grind those areas out and and fill them with fresh cloth and epoxy. Starved areas usually have just enough epoxy left in the cloth to prevent penetration through to the substrate.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    When you saturated the cloth, did it become transparent? If it did, then you got enough goop on. I never use peel ply on Dynell because I do not want to fill the weave, I want the texture to sho and act as a non skid surface. Also mimics the look of a canvas deck that way. I wonder if you trapped some air bubbles under your peel ply. What did you use for peel ply?

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I used proper peel-ply from cloth supplier. I laid the Dynel on dry and poured the resin on and spread it with a squeegee. Obviously some of the resin will pass through into the ply and I’m wondering if on subsequent passes with the squeegee it traps air between the resin soaked ply and the saturated cloth? I had my resin on the warmer so it was thin.
    I’ve got a couple of sole panels that I’ve previously coated and had the same problem which are presently having the above experiment carried out on. I’ll let you know my findings.
    Ive heard about the canvas mimic trick but am wary of exposing the cloth when the paint wears through. I’m dyneling to avoid the ply checking. Yes good quality ply. But it is Occume.
    i thought peel ply was permeable so that air/epoxy could pass??
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 11-04-2019 at 10:05 PM.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I just read a page on CLC site that states “we estimate an additional 15-20% of epoxy over wetting out the cloth only” .
    So it looks like wet out then add more. I think “rolling” on the peel ply (versus laying it straight on flat) would allow the air to escape too ????

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    How pervasive is the freckling? One option for correcting this might be injection. I've used a syringe with a fairly sharp tip to correct small voids in FG. I drilled very small, shallow holes first and then inserted the tip. Overfill the freckle with resin and it may go away. I got the syringes from West Marine.

  7. #7
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    Default

    Dunno. I used peel ply on my decks and had mixed results. A couple of epoxy starved spots I sanded back and applied new cloth. A lot of bubbles where the peel ply lifted, but the cloth was saturated. All invisible now.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Thanks Guys. I just had a thought that may be the main cause of my undoing. When pushing the epoxy around it would become aerated and so lead to not wetting out thoroughly. Doing about 6m2 led to a certain amount of rushing.
    I think injecting all the weave in my case would be a quick road to insanity, in this case.
    I don’t like the thought of sanding it off. Even though it should be what happens!

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    16 grit in your angle grinder. Job done.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    You might still be able to get a chemical bond, depending on your brand. Worth having a go with a heavy roller on the light spots before even thinking about ripping it off.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I’ve come to the realisation that I stuffed it so its coming off. Already set Ian, too late for the roller. It’d bother me no end if the paint started bubbling after.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I have to say I have never liked laying cloth dry (glass or Dynel). I like to roll on a good coat of epoxy and then lay the cloth into it, rolling it gently until the resin wets through and the cloth goes transparent. Adding more on top if necessary - but if the base coat is good and heavy you rarely have to do that.

    The only downside to a wet lay (other than it can be a bit messy if you are not well organized) is that if you are a bit heavy handed with the roller, the cloth (specially glass) starts to fluff up. Stippling with a brush with the hairs cut short actually works better. But in my experience you never get a dry result.

    Cheers -- George
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    You’re the second person ( which I would say is experienced) that has said they prefer laying cloth into the goop. I’ve a mind to give it a go. Thanks George. BTW I have some sole panels to try it on in the next few days.
    I was reading a Gougeon article where they say cloth can be removed by using a heat gun. Gotta beat sanding it.
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 11-05-2019 at 08:04 PM.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    You’re the second person ( which I would say is experienced) that has said they prefer laying cloth into the goop. I’ve a mind to give it a go. Thanks George
    I was reading a Gougeon article where they say cloth can be removed by using a heat gun. Gotta beat sanding it.
    I have never used peel ply. I normally use the defender product xynole, as opposed to dynel, but I have always assumed they are similar. I have better luck laying xynole on dry and wetting it through. I have better luck laying fiberglass onto a wetted out surface. But have read enough of these threads to think that what works best is likely based on some rather fine, and unspecified, details as to each person's procedure. Too many experienced people have said not to wet it out, and too many experienced people have said to wet it out. The only way I figured out what works best for me is through trial and error.

    As to the using a heat gun to remove the cloth, it might work. I have never had has much luck as most people in using a heat gun to get rid of epoxy. It seems to heat up too much and loosen glue I don't want loosened. So I approach that technique with caution (although I do it at times). Again, there are folks on this forum who talk of using a heat gun to clean up epoxy all the time.

    I think a lot of the epoxy advice is based on personal preferences and personal techniques.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Heat gun will definitely work to remove the glass/dynel. Run a thin scraper under the sheet as you go. The hot scraper helps.

    When sheathing, I always make sure the glass is saturated and any bubbles are gone before I lay on the peel ply. If you did that and still got bubbles, it seems likely that you got some outgassing. This happens if you do the sheathing in the sun or if you do it early on, on a warm day. Outgassing can create quite large bubbles.

    I don't think there's any advantage in wetting out the surface before laying glass/dynel except that it makes it a bit easier/quicker to wet out the glass. In straightforward areas, this is good but in more complex areas, it can be a problem as the glass sticks to the surface and can be harder to pull and slide into corners etc. One method that can work well, is to have the glass rolled up and you then wet out the surface as you go, unrolling the glass a bit at a time. But whether you've wet out the surface first or not, once the material is saturated, it stays that way. The only way I know whereby the glass can be drained of resin is by outgassing. Once I've laid peel ply over the glass, I keep checking it and rolling over it until I'm sure all bubbles and creases are gone. Even so, if it's in the sun, I know I'll still get some bubbles.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Bubbles often develop when the glue soaks into the substrate displacing the air that's already there, especially at checks, cracks, seams and fastener holes. It pays to seal with one or two coats first, even on nice new work.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I’m formulating a plan. Stay tuned , if you can bear the suspense! A few days time

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post
    Bubbles often develop when the glue soaks into the substrate displacing the air that's already there, especially at checks, cracks, seams and fastener holes. It pays to seal with one or two coats first, even on nice new work.
    Yes, so it does. I always fill any cavities first. I should have mentioned that! I don't coat plain wood or plywood before sheathing though.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Give the wet method a go next time. I usually put plastic bags on my feet so i can walk around on larger decks. Ply can suck back a bit of resin, so i always go for the roller and resin first, just need to be organised when doing areas and have the cloth pre cut etc. Better luck next time.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    As well as laying the cloth wet, I also always lay it in the second epoxy coating, not the first. This avoids most gassing out and air bubble problems.

    Cheers -- George
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    A C Grayling

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    When I get back to it I plan on giving the heat gun treatment a test to remove failed attempt. Otherwise it’s sanding. Hopefully that’ll leave enough goop in the underlying ply that outgassing won’t be a problem, but I’ll do it in late afternoon anyway. My next attempts will be on new sole panels, to see if I can do this wet, and then onto the deck. My only foreseeable problem is lining up the cloth as I unroll it so that it goes down flat. Cut it a little bigger to cover that perhaps. If I roll it onto a stick square hopefully it’ll go backdown the right way? Yes I like the idea of two coats. On the sole panels (about 350x600mm ) I want to try overlapping two bits then slice through it to make a butt join, if successful I’ll do it on the deck. Reason being that even though peelply flushes out the step in cloth there is still a definite speed-bump because of two layers. I don’t want to sand a groove for the join. If need be I’ll fill and feather it out if the butts don’t work.
    thanks to all for your input and ideas.
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 11-07-2019 at 06:16 PM.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Use PVC pipe to roll the glass onto.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    When I get back to it I plan on giving the heat gun treatment a test to remove failed attempt. Otherwise it’s sanding. Hopefully that’ll leave enough goop in the underlying ply that outgassing won’t be a problem, but I’ll do it in late afternoon anyway. My next attempts will be on new sole panels, to see if I can do this wet, and then onto the deck. My only foreseeable problem is lining up the cloth as I unroll it so that it goes down flat. Cut it a little bigger to cover that perhaps. If I roll it onto a stick square hopefully it’ll go backdown the right way? Yes I like the idea of two coats. On the sole panels (about 350x600mm ) I want to try overlapping two bits then slice through it to make a butt join, if successful I’ll do it on the deck. Reason being that even though peelply flushes out the step in cloth there is still a definite speed-bump because of two layers. I don’t want to sand a groove for the join. If need be I’ll fill and feather it out if the butts don’t work.
    thanks to all for your input and ideas.
    All I can say is that if I was that concerned about the detail Id have never got my deck done. A bit of filler goes a long way. Its a deck, not a dining table after all. Non skid hides a lot of sins too. My new deck would probably embarrass a professional, but I dont think you could spot the cloth overlaps. I dont understand why you feel you need to remove the whole lot, rather than just repair the trouble spot. But good luck!

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I like to do the best job I can and I feel I can do better. The problem is in several places over the whole deck. If some of us strive to do the best we can is that a problem. Only to me. So I’m gonna fix it. I came here looking for advice not the usual criticism. I’ll accept the positive good luck wishes though. Out.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Some good info in this link-even if titled Vacuum Bagging


    https://atlcomposites.com.au/icart/p...Peel%20Ply.pdf
    Last edited by Andrew Donald; 11-08-2019 at 04:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    I like to do the best job I can and I feel I can do better. The problem is in several places over the whole deck. If some of us strive to do the best we can is that a problem. Only to me. So I’m gonna fix it. I came here looking for advice not the usual criticism. I’ll accept the positive good luck wishes though. Out.
    No criticism intended at all! Good on you for setting your sights high. I was just saying I have to be happy, or am happy, with my own less than perfect results. Make it good as I can and move on. I admire those who do much better. I guess I was trying to say, there's no shame in a less than perfect job when we are doing our best to keep our boats alive. If our work achieves some improvement, that's good.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Bad advice is worse than no advice at all. Dynel is no harder to put on than other cloths. Pulling it off will be much harder than you apparently expect. Resistance to peeling is one of the strong suits of Dynel. I have always put on cloth dry and spread epoxy through the cloth with a squeegee. If peel ply is used, it should be rolled over until epoxy comes through as that shows that the epoxy is saturating the cloth. It's not rocket science and grinders have no place in making it right.
    Tom L

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    Interesting. So if, like me, you were unfamiliar with using fibreglass, (or dynel) but went ahead and rebuilt and glassed your deck anyway, and found a few "dry" spots and some funny bits where the glass is good but the peel ply raised a bubble of epoxy, what would you do? Your advice seems to be that peeling off and starting again is a fool's errand, and grinding back and spot repairing is bad. Doesn't seem to leave many options.

    (Sorry Andrew, probably not where you hoped this thread would go, but maybe we will.learn something)

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I take all advice on board , some with a tablespoon! Of salt. We’ll see in a couple of days

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Interesting. So if, like me, you were unfamiliar with using fibreglass, (or dynel) but went ahead and rebuilt and glassed your deck anyway, and found a few "dry" spots and some funny bits where the glass is good but the peel ply raised a bubble of epoxy, what would you do? Your advice seems to be that peeling off and starting again is a fool's errand, and grinding back and spot repairing is bad. Doesn't seem to leave many options.

    (Sorry Andrew, probably not where you hoped this thread would go, but maybe we will.learn something)

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    Phil,

    The point about Xynole is that the cloth, when well glued, is very hard to peel and that is one of Xynole's better qualities. Much, much harder to peel than any other material I've ever run into. When cured, peeling will pull off some of the base wood along with bits of cloth, even if you get it to come off without heat. Best thing for me is to fit it on dry and well attached around the edges. Then spread epoxy, either by pouring in spots over the cloth or by rolling. Either will allow epoxy to be evenly spread out with a squeegee. That last part is one of the most critical ones, EVENLY, no thick or thick areas. If using peel ply, that comes next and is important for not having to sand later but not important for a good sheath surface.

    Many don't get the best type of squeegee, but that is important as well. The best is a rubber type made by Thalco which is available in any custom length you want. Sounds a lot more expensive than the cheap plastic ones but I'm still using two pieces of about 4" and 6" that I bought over 20 years ago and they have a long way to go. It's flexible enough to conform to mildly undulating surfaces. Clean with whatever you use after finishing. If you forget and wait too long, just sand off the tapered edge and keep on going.

    Laying on cloth of any kind is not difficult, except for maybe overhead, but like anything in boatbuilding, either do it right or spend a lot of wasted effort and time redoing it later.

    Never had any big trouble like you may be having, but I would likely try a heat gun and squeegee to rework the voids or over filled spots. Like other thermoplastics, epoxy will melt and reset time and again with heat, but don't overdo the heat. Either add some epoxy to voids or take some away from over filled spots. Neither of these will happen when layed on properly with the right tools and method.
    Last edited by Tom Lathrop; 11-09-2019 at 01:08 PM.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Without photos it's hard to know what's the best way to repair this but you said it looks freckled so assuming that the spots are quite small I expect that the easiest and least expensive repair would be to use a brad point bit with a depth controlling collar and just shallow drill out each of the spots and fill them with neat epoxy. It would probably take 2 applications, 3 in some spots. What do you think?



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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    I estimate the area of deck to be 5 or 6 square metres and the trouble spots are randomly located maybe 1/3 or 1/2 that area. Some of the freckled areas extend for maybe 2 square feet.
    I’m not at the build location (1 3/4 hrs drive ) but plan going there today.
    This is a new build of Oughtred’s GreySeal. 22’ ply deck.
    Grinding/sanding out the crap areas is not on because that doesn’t appeal to my OCD.
    Gib, I can see the logic in your method but I worry about damaging the cloth, let alone there are perhaps a couple of thousand of these freckles, some just one mesh hole of the cloth others several.They really are randomly spread. I want to remove the whole lot and do it again
    I’ll see if I can get pictures that show what I’m on about later today or tomorrow.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    ….. On the sole panels (about 350x600mm ) I want to try overlapping two bits then slice through it to make a butt join, if successful I’ll do it on the deck. Reason being that even though peelply flushes out the step in cloth there is still a definite speed-bump because of two layers. I don’t want to sand a groove for the join. If need be I’ll fill and feather it out if the butts don’t work...
    I put a new ply, dynel and epoxy deck on a 5.5x2m Port Phillip pilot boat. It's been out on a mooring now for 10 plus years now with no sign of blistering or lifting.

    I butted the joints by overlapping the dry cloth about 2cm and applying the epoxy (cheapo Bunnings plastic trowels). When the still green epoxy had lost most of its tackiness I laid a steel ruler over the centre of the joint as a guide and cut though using an Olfa cutter (as beloved by quilters) These cutters are the bees knees for cutting any cloth wet or dry, they roll whilst cutting so there is no drag of the fibre. The soft dynel/epoxy strip peeled away easily after which I rolled the joint down using hard nylon rollers. In fact I went over the whole deck with the rollers pressing hard to get the weave down and minimise the total epoxy load...there were no visible dry spots and the joints were smooth. A thin layer of filler loaded epoxy was squeegeed over the entire deck before the first coat had gone off, no peel ply required!.

    The end result: The dynel/epoxy skin is about 0.8mm thick, the ply is 9mm.

    _1851.jpg

    The tools:

    _1854.jpg

    _1857.jpg

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    OCD or a tendency thereto would make amatuer boatbuilding or maintenance difficult. So many things we have to learn as we go along. And many of them take years of practice to get good at. But most times we don't get years of practice. We build a deck once, and then have to move on and learn about spar making or whatever. Good luck with the removal.

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    Default Re: Dynel and peel -ply

    It'll come up OK with a putty knife (or wider) and a heat gun. Wear thick gloves. It will be much easier with a helper manning the heat.

    When I wanted the glass to provide complete coverage on a 34 foot hull I applied every other piece then once the resin was cured I feathered the edges for 2 inches then laid on the in between pieces with 2 inch overlaps and eventually faired the surface. This produced scarf joints at the laps. Telling you this Paul because you mentioned OCD.

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