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Thread: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

  1. #1
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    Default 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    New member. First Entry.
    I’ve been following WB for decades and have a few wood boats, none of which should not go near the water. I recently acquired a 22’r, lap strake, all riveted, wine glass stern, not a plumb stem but very sweet work on it. I’m more familiar with motor boats but I had an idea of what a Whitehall and Wherry is. If this is a Whitehall, I can’t find one on line that is as long.

    There are three rowing stations with turned posts under the seats, a bow seat for the drummer and one in the stern for a tillersman. The transom is notched for the steering oar. There is also a rudder, broken off, and it looks like it was only the width of an oar blade.

    There is no centerboard of any kind.

    The mast is present with the remains of a furled sail and a “boom” maybe. Perhaps it is a spirit sail.

    It had been sitting outside in the dry eastern north/west for a long time. Remarkably, I can not find any rot or even spongy wood.

    Most interested in ideas for identification and restoration. I don’t know it’s age. The history I have gotten is interesting, belonged to fisherman out of Alaska and Seattle, inherited to Alaska and back to Washington state. Headed to Kootenay Lake in the future.

    Hum, looks like three photos are 90 out. I think I read something in the FAQs about them being adjusted automatically. I hope so.
    EF203E98-08D6-4310-BEB1-854662B6F76F.jpg C50895DC-B0AA-46C7-B6AC-696E609D634A.jpg B5312DA1-476E-432C-96D4-946F85111E11.jpg 18EA6E84-96F1-4B98-A7EC-E848CA8418E8.jpg
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    Last edited by Kootenay Boats; 09-27-2018 at 06:57 PM.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    She is in the style of a Whitehall, but you could say that a Whitehall, especially the carvel ones are a style of rowing skiff/wherry.
    That mast partner looks like an afterthought so she may not have been built to sail, hence the lack of CB.

    P.S. Welcome to the forum. Nice boat.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Hi Nick,
    Now I wonder if there are others like it with sail and no center board. Seems like I have seen plans for something like that. One would want to be careful with this boat in cold water.

    You can see a boom in one photo. I can not tell where it might have been set.

    Adding a photo of the sail, or what’s left of it. Looks like there is enough left for planing a new one. Also, a photo of what’s left of the ribs. They are mostly gone in the bilge. I suppose the gunwale (inner if I have that right) would need to be removed to replace the ribs. All are pretty shot.
    Much to learn. Attachment 23615Attachment 23616
    Bruce

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    I’d venture that she’s a gig.
    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Yeadon is right, of course.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    I’d venture that she’s a gig.
    A gig, eh? That could be. My uneducated guess is it may be a sprit. It looks a bit like the one here. You can see the sprit (or boom) in a photo of the boat next to the mast.

    Nick is probably right, the sail might be an after thought. The broken partner looks funky and asymmetrical and it lacks paint as the rest of the interior. Also, it looks like an attempt to fix it or strengthen it with plywood under.
    11E118FE-D0FE-4A68-BA38-C3C33CAF1987.jpeg419EC4B5-B7FC-4A99-AA99-D679D214F2B9.jpg78DDCDAD-1D56-4D79-8BA9-5E9CB526501F.jpg97543F66-8831-487D-877F-87C7ADBF65D5.jpg
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Maybe it is rigged like our Nordlandsboat with "Sneseil" That is a gaff rig, but without a boom, only a peak. Nordlandsboats does not have a centerboard either. The long keel is enough for sailing + some stones for ballast.

    Very interesting project, beautiful lines!

    Regards Fred


    Last edited by Fredostli; 09-28-2018 at 01:31 PM.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    She is an absolute jewel of a boat, beautiful lines & will go like the clappers under oars, Interesting that she has only three rowing seats, a Gig would usually have four single sweeps, but at 22ft long & with the long stern benches she is probably too short to get four sweep oars on without the rowers clouting each other with the oar handles. However with three rowing seats she would go well with triple sculls or set up as a Randan, (sweep fore & aft pair of sculls in the middle) She is well worth restoring properly & i am green with envy, please dont slather her in epoxy!
    Last edited by keith66; 09-28-2018 at 02:17 AM.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Looks to be a version of this boat, "Clipper Cornish Yawl for Clayton Lewis" by Pete Culler. Dimensions listed are; LOA 20', Beam 4'1", Depth 1'6", and sail area 51 sqft.

    Gig.jpg
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    ^The outfit details of the thwarts and mast partner suggest that is is that boat.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    I should have guessed she was a Pete culler design might have to build me one of those stretch her out to 26 ft & be perfect.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Kooteney ; I don't know if you can read the notations in the posted plan ,but floors are specified (I've got John Burks book ,but must use 2 magnifying glasses at once to read the notes ) . I would think you 'd want floors to tie the 2 sides together and support the sole . Mystic Seaport has the plans . Their entire Culler catalogue is now on line .https://store.mysticseaport.org/ship...nish-yawl.html

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Hi Kieth, I will have to study up in the “slang” but thank you for the kind words. Sadly, I had to leave her at a friends on the same day I picker er up. You have no worries about epoxy on wood. I know what happens. I will be looking forward to hearing about cleaning to Canadian standards so I can get her over that boarder. They don’t want foreign marine organisms.

    After that I need an order of operations for proper restoration, sanding, paint, caulking, gunwales, ribs, floors and decks. It just sounds like a lot of fun.

    Thanks to others for information as well. The Culler 20 looks right but 2’ short. Maybe the builder just added 2 for good measure.

    This boat looks like it was very well made a long time ago. The brass covering the fancy stem is a delight to look at. Who would do that? It’s a perfect fit. Someone knew what they were doing.
    Bruce
    Last edited by Kootenay Boats; 09-29-2018 at 12:29 AM.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Perkins View Post
    Kooteney ; I don't know if you can read the notations in the posted plan ,but floors are specified (I've got John Burks book ,but must use 2 magnifying glasses at once to read the notes ) . I would think you 'd want floors to tie the 2 sides together and support the sole . Mystic Seaport has the plans . Their entire Culler catalogue is now on line .https://store.mysticseaport.org/ship...nish-yawl.html
    I cannot see floors depicted in the drawing. The bottom boards sit down on the steamed timbers which cross the keel, tying the sides together. If you were to be worried about floors, insert extra timbers reaching out to the bilge in between the existing ribs. Be weary of raising the bottom boards on bearers as that may screw up the rowing geometry, which we must assume is correct as the designer intended.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    I wonder if in fact Clayton Lewis had anything to do with this craft?

    He was quite a fellow. His "home" on Point Reyes was amazing, very remote with no neighbors for miles, with the best access only by water, it is almost all gone or grown over now. He had purchased the property just months before the National Park had taken over the peninsula and although he lost the case to "own it" he was granted the right to live there in perpetuity. I used to sail across the bay and anchor in front of his home for days at a time. A short raid to the Oyster farm and life on the beach was pretty darn good.

    Clayton Scott Lewis (March 15, 1915 – September 15, 1995) was an American artist known primarily for his work as an envelope artist and jewelry designer.


    Life and career


    Clayton Lewis began his professional life as a furniture designer in the late 1940s with his firm, Claywood Designs, which led to coverage in magazines such as Progressive Architecture and Interiors. After a rare bone disease put him in the hospital, and with a young family to support, in 1950, he was hired as general manager of the Herman Miller Furniture Company’s Venice, California office. There he helped implement designs by Charles Eames, Ray Eames, Isamu Noguchi, and George Nelson.
    After a tenure at Herman Miller, he left his position and moved his family to Northern California, in 1953, to open up his own art studio. Following various shows and the subsequent breakup of his marriage in 1962, he moved first to Nevada City in 1963, and then to the Point Reyes Peninsula in 1964, where he designed a large collection of sculpture jewelry while working with Judy Perlman. After they disbanded their partnership of Perlman-Lewis in 1973, he continued working on his own as a sculptor, painter, and water colorist.
    Between 1980 and 1985, he produced over 1000 pieces of mail art, mostly sent to his mother in the final years of her life. The envelopes have been shown in one-man and group shows in San Francisco, Pasadena, and Paris, among other locations.
    His work can be found in the permanent collections of the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art; Metropolitan Museum, New York; Los Angeles County Museum of Art; California Historical Society, San Francisco; Musιe de La Poste, Paris, France; among others.
    For the last 31 years of his life he lived in a group of Coast Miwok Indian cottages at Lairds Landing, on Tomales Bay, fifty miles north of San Francisco. There he built a spacious sculpting and painting studio with a substantial foundry to work in. In order to help sustain himself, he worked as a carpenter, fisherman, and boat builder, as well as an artist.
    Clayton Lewis was born in Snoqualmie, Washington and died at his home at Laird’s Landing, Point Reyes National Seashore, California. He was raised in Snoqualmie before moving to Seattle in 1936 to study at the Cornish School for the Arts (later Cornish College of the Arts). Between 1937 and 1940 he lived in San Francisco, where he studied at the California School of Fine Arts (later the San Francisco Art Institute).
    Clayton Lewis was married to Virginia Harding Lewis from 1942-1962. They had four children, including the composer, Peter Scott Lewis.

    wikipedia



    Last edited by Canoeyawl; 09-29-2018 at 03:34 PM.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Hi Fred,
    I am road a lot these days. Sorry for the delay in response and thank you for the reference to your Sneseil. I watched a nice little video of one dancing about a bay. The keel on those looks to be a lot deeper that my little dream boat. I do not know much about sailing but I had a huge, short lived thankfully, adventure in a Hobbie Cat many years ago with wife and two 10 year olds. The kids were in the water hanging on for fun when I noticed a huge black wall coming in the sky and the water on the small lake started to churn. We managed to get the kids in, one slung around the mast. I managed to point the boat back toward the dock a couple hundreds away. It was a very fast run and we were all pretty excited, to say the least, probably scared! Somehow we dropped the sail, turned 90 degrees and slid right into a slip like we had done it a hundred times. More luck than skill. I’d like to think my ancestors are Vikings, ever since the 50’s moving with Curtis and Douglas when I was a kid. I had a muddy river then, no fiord. Kootenay Lake on the other hand, at 70 miles long, is pretty close to a fiord. No cod or whales but there is Big Bertha, a 300 (est) pound sturgeon. Rbs

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    mr. yawl,
    Well, this would be an incredible connection. I have been to Pt. Rayes. It’s been a while. And I have feasted on oysters, I think from Drakes Bay. I also had a flying good time on two of three hulls of a trimaran there. We rented horses from a near by stable to get out there. Not being a rider and after 8 hours in the saddle, my butt was sore for days.
    Unfortunately, I know little about the boat. I was told it was owned by two brothers who fished out of Seattle and Alaska. They were both killed in a fishing accident and it was inherited by a third brother who was in Fairbanks, Alaska, oddly enough, where I am from. I suppose the two brothers had it in Seattle or there about. When they died it went to Alaska. 18 years ago it went to eastern Washington and sat out most of the time. That’s where I found it.
    So, perhaps it did belong to Mr. Lewis. One of his kids might offer some history to the story. Crazier things have happened. As in, 20 years ago it was in the same town I was in. 20 years later it comes my way, 2500 miles away from where we both were. That’s a story.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Nick,
    Looks like a few floor boards maybe in the plan view. Also, maybe floors or long bolts to tie them. Hard to imagine through bolts but it looks like dashed lines, maybe three pairs.
    I hadn’t even though about floors. Thanks for the heads up. $50 for the plans. Tempting. What do you make of Culler’s 20 compared to the 22’ on hand?
    It looks very close. The stern seat side comes fwd all the way to the third rowing seat. That’s a little different. Also, a couple circled questions on the plans, the knotted line and the “floor” plank in the stern.
    F485EE7C-16FA-4EE7-96A2-98321E5F3E77.jpeg
    Exciting stuff.
    Next topic will be the 18’ clinker, motor dory. I need crew.
    Thanks a lot,
    Bruce

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kootenay Boats View Post
    Nick,
    Looks like a few floor boards maybe in the plan view. Also, maybe floors or long bolts to tie them. Hard to imagine through bolts but it looks like dashed lines, maybe three pairs.
    I hadn’t even though about floors. Thanks for the heads up. $50 for the plans. Tempting. What do you make of Culler’s 20 compared to the 22’ on hand?
    It looks very close. The stern seat side comes fwd all the way to the third rowing seat. That’s a little different. Also, a couple circled questions on the plans, the knotted line and the “floor” plank in the stern.
    F485EE7C-16FA-4EE7-96A2-98321E5F3E77.jpeg
    Exciting stuff.
    Next topic will be the 18’ clinker, motor dory. I need crew.
    Thanks a lot,
    Bruce
    Language problem. Buildings on land have floor boards. Boats have bottom or ballast boards, cabin or cockpit sole, and if structural cieling.
    The platform in the stern are the stern sheets. Te seats between the seat in the stern and the aftermost thwart are side benches.
    I cannot read the text, any chance of posting it at a larger scale? The rope circled is the snotter that supports the sprit.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    The note on the drawing says;

    Floors: Same stock as frame.
    1/2" x 7/8" ok flat. - Go as far as
    practical bending in ends.
    Reach out at least two plank.
    To turn of bilge for heavy use
    on beach.
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Beauty! . . . . hope the prognosis is favorable and that she rows and sails for many years to come.
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Nick,
    O.k. , I see I need to learn more about wood boat nomenclature. I think I was correct about “floors”, but not “floor boards”. What would support the longitudinal “boards” (bottom boards) one walks on for this boat?

    TR, below, offers what the note says, 1/2 x 7/8 flat. I don’t think that would support the bottom boards. Must be something else. What ever it is, or was, is completely missing or never there.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Wow,
    Deciphering the code. Thanks for that. You must have the plans. And, he calls them “floors”. It looks like only three of those are shown. Maybe more were actually used.

    If only 1/2 x 7/8 flat, would support the bottom boards? I don’t see anything for that. Most illustrations for “floors” I see are flat, (plank floor) but not all. At this site (https://www.boatbuilding.xyz/buildin...r-timbers.html) I see an I intriguing “spring floor”, it must be laminated. All very interesting stuff.
    Thank you very much,
    Rbs

  23. #23
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kootenay Boats View Post
    Nick,
    O.k. , I see I need to learn more about wood boat nomenclature. I think I was correct about “floors”, but not “floor boards”. What would support the longitudinal “boards” (bottom boards) one walks on for this boat?

    TR, below, offers what the note says, 1/2 x 7/8 flat. I don’t think that would support the bottom boards. Must be something else. What ever it is, or was, is completely missing or never there.
    Those bottom boards simply rest directly on the fame timbers and floors. Steam bent floors like those are common in clinker built beach boats in the UK, usually joggled over the lands. The drawing only depicts three to indicate that they are spaced in the middle of the frame timber spacing, but the text advised fit as many as you can before they break at the bend across the keel.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Hi George,
    So much to learn. This will be like learning Spanish or French just communicate. I look forward to sanding a bit to determine what wood spent so many years outside w/o rotting. I suppose the worse case scenario will be at the keel.

    There is a thin shoe under the keel. It either was lose or came lost in part when we loaded the funky old trailer it is on, onto my tiltbed. There was some lifting and twisting involved. Resolving these things during a restoration will be an education I look forward too.
    Bruce

  25. #25
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    I’ve been studying a bunch of photos of frames and floors. So, something akin to an “intermediate semi-frame” (up at lease two frames off the keel) as indicated but the dashed lines in the Culler dwg, is a floor too? O.k. The floors as explained to me by the shipwright long ago was on a heavy power boat, 30 or 40 feet maybe. So, they were probably 2 or 3 inches thick. He was working near the bow and nothing sat on top.
    On this light boat it looks like there is only an area between the seats, thwarts, for bottom boards that would sit flat enough to step on. Othewise the bilge is pretty narrow and sides very steep.
    So, nothing wrong I suppose in adding something a little heavier with a flat top for a bottom board wide enough to step on, realizing that anything makes the boat heavier. I’ll add a couple photo of what I found.
    Always interested in an education. Thanks for the information. I look forward to more.
    Bruce
    A4BEE368-CD66-453B-9229-6C3ECEB0E7AD.jpeg 65D52B53-26DC-40F8-B7D5-D20E1A565DC6.jpg 608E2E92-74A8-4F55-99FC-BB751651FA0B.jpeg

  26. #26
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kootenay Boats View Post
    I’ve been studying a bunch of photos of frames and floors. So, something akin to an “intermediate semi-frame” (up at lease two frames off the keel) as indicated but the dashed lines in the Culler dwg, is a floor too? O.k. The floors as explained to me by the shipwright long ago was on a heavy power boat, 30 or 40 feet maybe. So, they were probably 2 or 3 inches thick. He was working near the bow and nothing sat on top.
    On this light boat it looks like there is only an area between the seats, thwarts, for bottom boards that would sit flat enough to step on. Othewise the bilge is pretty narrow and sides very steep.
    So, nothing wrong I suppose in adding something a little heavier with a flat top for a bottom board wide enough to step on, realizing that anything makes the boat heavier. I’ll add a couple photo of what I found.
    Always interested in an education. Thanks for the information. I look forward to more.
    Bruce
    A4BEE368-CD66-453B-9229-6C3ECEB0E7AD.jpeg 65D52B53-26DC-40F8-B7D5-D20E1A565DC6.jpg 608E2E92-74A8-4F55-99FC-BB751651FA0B.jpeg
    Have a care.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I cannot see floors depicted in the drawing. The bottom boards sit down on the steamed timbers which cross the keel, tying the sides together. If you were to be worried about floors, insert extra timbers reaching out to the bilge in between the existing ribs. Be weary of raising the bottom boards on bearers as that may screw up the rowing geometry, which we must assume is correct as the designer intended.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #27
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    Default Re: 22’ x 4 1/2, what? Whitehall, Wherry, Skiff? Curious minds.

    To me she looks like a mighty good boat worth saving. Whoever designed her.
    Amateur living on the western coast of Finland

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