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Thread: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

  1. #1
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    Default Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    So I have been ever since I was about twelve years old wanted to build a boat and sail around the world. Now I am twenty and l am getting more serious about my options, I really wanted to build a George Buehler Otter 50 or one of the ducks. (I have looked at others NAís and even talked to some of them.) I think his boats are the best for what I am wanting, namly the Otter. To the best of my knowledge plans are no longer available, but I have the plans in his book that include the a smaller example form his VAGABOND series. Long story short I can figure everything I need between those prints the pictures and information on his site, would it be wrong of me to build the boat in this manner sense there is no other way to get the plans? Part of me says that he would be positive about someone learning how he did, but pissed about the plans being sorta stolen from him. I mean for the love of god he even lays out how thick to make the frames and planks on his site. Am I overthinking this, and making a moral and ethics issue of something that is not either?

    Before it comes up, no I donít have any sailing experience but will be attending sailing school before I build such a boat. (I see a dinghy in my future though, two birds one stone.) Lastly I am digging through the forums and archives on various things, like 70/30 copper nickel hull plating, preventing galvanic corrosion between bronze and stainless steel and galvanized chain, anchors, rigging, fiberglassing the inside of a wood boat hull then applying spray foam to prevent condensation from encouraging rot/osmosis, and lastly a plank plywood hybrid hull. (Planks would be epoxied onto the plywood and through bolt both to the frames, then lay a thin transparent glass epoxy or just a epoxy layer applied over it to prevent warping.)

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Welcome aboard!
    Try to find out who has the rights to his plans and contact them.
    Building a dinghy is a good idea. Try to crew daysailing and cruising. I suggest you don't get too creative on the build, stick to the designer's plan, modify it later if you choose. I thought of making changes to my boat when I bought her, but realized that she'd been sailing 40 years, things were as they are for good reason.
    Keep us posted.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Definitely welcome aboard! You've obviously put some thought into looking at designs, but before you get your heart set on one configuration you might try offering yourself a crew for some deliveries in the Gulf area. That could give you a chance to see what you do/don't like about some features you've seen in your research.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Thank you for the welcome John Sandusky,
    The only thing I was going to change was add about two feet to the pilot house to allow for a sea berth/seating/dining area while under way. I could squeeze it in as is, but would be putting that 2 ft to very good use. As for day sailing it is hard right now to do that given I am a solid days drive from the coast and in school, once my next ten weeks are done I do plan on trying to find a yacht delivery or the like to crew on. REALLY want to partake in a overnight sail out of the sight of land if I get a chance before I build as a test drive of offshore sailing. Aside from walking the docks, is there a website or someplace I could look for crew wanted ads?

    ~Kain Kelly

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    May I suggest that a 50ft boat is a very very big project for a first timer. Even using inferior construction techniques it could easily take 20,000 hours to build, rig, and outfit. That is 10 years full time.

    Many 30 footers are more than capable offshore, and would cost 1/4 as much to build and take 1/4 as much time. Then when you learn a whole bunch about how you would do things differently the second time around, you aren't sitting there looking at a 1/4 complete 50 footer.

    Check out this thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...34-Venus-Ketch

    Wiz built a 34' boat quicker than most anybody could and sailed far and wide. There is a lot to learn there.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Thank you for your welcome, you don't know the half of it I look into steel then wood, foam core, steel again, solid carbon, a wood steel hybrid, got a chance to pic a NA brain then it was foam glass/kevlar, then aluminum, then for the last time steel now it is wood again after pricing out steel/aluminum hulls after blasting, material, welding expense, etc, etc, I can truthfully say that I believe wood boat building is the way to go for me.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    I am aware, 30-45 was my original size range. I have also thought about that, I could make the longest single post on here of ways I have theorized how to cut the build time and costs down, everything from CNC and batch lay ups, to dangling beer in front of my "glug glug" type friends in trades. (Cabinetry, electrical work, body men and the like.)

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by KainKelly View Post
    As for day sailing it is hard right now to do that given I am a solid days drive from the coast and in school . . .
    I lived in Atlanta - if you're in Gilmer, Shreveport Yacht Club, on Cross Lake, has (or had) an active club racing scene. At every yacht club with racing, there is always, always a skipper who needs crew - no experience required. Just add yourself on their website or put up a notice on the bulletin board at the club.
    You may not be interested in doing any racing later on, but the experience will be invaluable. Plus you'll get to meet a lot of like minded folks - which is otherwise very unlikely in your area.

    Good luck!
    Dave

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Thank you very much, I can make that drive easy. I will get on looking into it.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Has anyone ever used epoxy granite as ballast for a keel before?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    A 50ft boat! Don't know how to sail.
    Thats a lot of boat to build, and a lot of boat to sail - and maintain and kit out and so on.

    If you coldmold it as you describe, you shouldn't need frames. Just go a third and fourth layer.
    I recommend you complete the dinghy first.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    I was thinking the same thing, I just don't want to get to far from the plans. My thinking was I could build a hull with three water tight layers. (Or six depending on what you want to count structurally wise.) While getting away with a bit cheaper and easier to work planks and the benefits of marine ply.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Check out the film in this, it shows a boat being built somewhat as you describe. http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-AND-has-money
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Of the plans in his book Buehler said there was enough info there to build them, but that if you bought plans then you get a larger size set of plans plus his advice as needed... which seems to suggest he was reasonably relaxed about the whole issue of rights to build. He was also pretty keen on very big boats in his more recent years, but keep in mind that by the time he started building and sailing big he already had a lot of experience building and sailing small boats. A small Buehler design will take you less time and a fraction of the money, yet will still take you around the world.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Have you considered ferro-cement for your hull material/technique?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quite a world of difference between a motor boat and a sail boat. Otter 50 is still on Buehler's web site. http://georgebuehler.com/otter.html Perhaps the estate has the big set.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Enjoy the dream boat (the one you have not built yet). Try to pay for the plans, it's not going to be a lot of money and its the right thing to do.

    Don't worry about paying for them now, unless you want them as a statement of intent and something to dream over.

    Think about a semester at sea. Get on crewfinder and get out there. Life is long, you'll learn a lot if you get on the water and you'll be a better builder and sailor.

    Start living little bits of the dream now, and grow with it.
    Yachting, the only sport where you get to be a mechanic, electrician, plumber and carpenter

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by KainKelly View Post
    So I have been ever since I was about twelve years old wanted to build a boat and sail around the world. Now I am twenty and l am getting more serious about my options, I really wanted to build a George Buehler Otter 50 or one of the ducks. (I have looked at others NA’s and even talked to some of them.) I think his boats are the best for what I am wanting, namly the Otter. To the best of my knowledge plans are no longer available, but I have the plans in his book that include the a smaller example form his VAGABOND series. Long story short I can figure everything I need between those prints the pictures and information on his site, would it be wrong of me to build the boat in this manner sense there is no other way to get the plans? Part of me says that he would be positive about someone learning how he did, but pissed about the plans being sorta stolen from him. I mean for the love of god he even lays out how thick to make the frames and planks on his site. Am I overthinking this, and making a moral and ethics issue of something that is not either?

    Before it comes up, no I don’t have any sailing experience but will be attending sailing school before I build such a boat. (I see a dinghy in my future though, two birds one stone.) Lastly I am digging through the forums and archives on various things, like 70/30 copper nickel hull plating, preventing galvanic corrosion between bronze and stainless steel and galvanized chain, anchors, rigging, fiberglassing the inside of a wood boat hull then applying spray foam to prevent condensation from encouraging rot/osmosis, and lastly a plank plywood hybrid hull. (Planks would be epoxied onto the plywood and through bolt both to the frames, then lay a thin transparent glass epoxy or just a epoxy layer applied over it to prevent warping.)
    Please build a model. Go sail with friends to see if you like it!

    there is absolutely no real reason to build a boat to sail when 1000s of great unbelievable boats ready to picked up for a song. Thinking about boat design is like playing chess. There is alway another game to play. I knows of several great ones ready to circumnavigate that can be had for the price of 75 gallons of epoxy.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 09-14-2018 at 08:40 AM.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    I have seen that before, really a hell of a piece of craftsmanship. I was surprised to see them used tounge and groove for the planning I would have thought that would be a easy place for rot to develop, I guess all that epoxy stops rot right there....

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    Of the plans in his book Buehler said there was enough info there to build them, but that if you bought plans then you get a larger size set of plans plus his advice as needed... which seems to suggest he was reasonably relaxed about the whole issue of rights to build. He was also pretty keen on very big boats in his more recent years, but keep in mind that by the time he started building and sailing big he already had a lot of experience building and sailing small boats. A small Buehler design will take you less time and a fraction of the money, yet will still take you around the world.
    Yes he did, I am looking through his book and site at something smaller that I can put a pilot house on to. Still really like the otter.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Scheuer View Post
    Have you considered ferro-cement for your hull material/technique?
    Yes, I have looked into it and I don't trust it. To many bad opinions of it.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Please build a model. Go sail with friends to see if you like it!

    there is absolutely no real reason to build a boat to sail when 1000s of great unbelievable boats ready to picked up for a song. Thinking about boat design is like playing chess. There is alway another game to play. I knows of several great ones ready to circumnavigate that can be had for the price of 75 gallons of epoxy.
    I wonít go a cc over 50 gallons! Seriously, which boats? Throw up some pics for reference. I really think it would help.

    You know me. Cats who ainít from the waterfront donít really know what itís like there, you know?

    Peace,
    Robert

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Yes but I wasn't sure if I wanted a motor or a sailboat for a while.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    I am working on that as we speak.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    I won’t go a cc over 50 gallons! Seriously, which boats? Throw up some pics for reference. I really think it would help.

    You know me. Cats who ain’t from the waterfront don’t really know what it’s like there, you know?

    Peace,
    Robert
    The only boat I have seen that cheap looked like the bow was violently molested by a chain saw.

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by KainKelly View Post
    The only boat I have seen that cheap looked like the bow was violently molested by a chain saw.
    Which is why I asked Ted to post some pics of what he means. Iíve been to where he lives a bunch of times, and there are wooden boats EVERYWHERE.
    Now, Ted is gregarious and friendly and knows EVERYONE, so Iím sure he could post some pics of boats for sale that will make you change your mind about building.
    Plenty of work to be done to make a boat ďyour ownĒ, but enough boat to get done with it.

    Build a dinghy, and then, later, when you swallow the anchor, build a beach cruiser.

    If you want to go sail around the marble, go right now.

    Otherwise youíll wake up next week and be old. It happens.

    Peace,
    Robert

    P.S. Iíd lean toward Juno, Olga, or Archimedes (the latter two have pilothouses) from his catalogue. He was a funny guy. He called me a weirdo, once. He was right about a lot of stuff. Hehe.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    "I knows of several great ones ready to circumnavigate that can be had for the price of 75 gallons of epoxy." I'd go with "able to circumnavigate" instead of " ready to circumnavigate" but that's a quibble...fact is there are hundreds available close to the mark.

    "I wonít go a cc over 50 gallons! Seriously, which boats? Throw up some pics for reference. I really think it would help.
    You know me. Cats who ainít from the waterfront donít really know what itís like there, you know?"

    Sorry...gonna require the full 75 (shall we call it an even $12000?) ...but a 5 minute look at my local craigslist brought up 6 possibles. Here's the one I'd look at first, having some experience with this design.


    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/boa...693007330.html

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    [QUOTE=MoePorter;5674295]"I knows of several great ones ready to circumnavigate that can be had for the price of 75 gallons of epoxy." I'd go with "able to circumnavigate" instead of " ready to circumnavigate" but that's a quibble...fact is there are hundreds available close to the mark.

    "I won’t go a cc over 50 gallons! Seriously, which boats? Throw up some pics for reference. I really think it would help.
    You know me. Cats who ain’t from the waterfront don’t really know what it’s like there, you know?"

    Sorry...gonna require the full 75 (shall we call it an even $12000?) ...but a 5 minute look at my local craigslist brought up 6 possibles. Here's the one I'd look at first, having some experience with this design.


    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/boa...693007330.html[/QUOTE

    I had a chance at a boat about the same size this far in land. At about 3K it was a hell of a deal, sadly it sold before I could find a truck with enough umph to move it.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by MoePorter View Post
    "I knows of several great ones ready to circumnavigate that can be had for the price of 75 gallons of epoxy." I'd go with "able to circumnavigate" instead of " ready to circumnavigate" but that's a quibble...fact is there are hundreds available close to the mark.

    "I won’t go a cc over 50 gallons! Seriously, which boats? Throw up some pics for reference. I really think it would help.
    You know me. Cats who ain’t from the waterfront don’t really know what it’s like there, you know?"

    Sorry...gonna require the full 75 (shall we call it an even $12000?) ...but a 5 minute look at my local craigslist brought up 6 possibles. Here's the one I'd look at first, having some experience with this design.


    https://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/boa...693007330.html

    I am not at all in the market, and the 50 gallons was a joke.

    Point was the boats exist. You ain’t building no Buehler nothing with only $12,000, unless you harvest all the wood yourself. And don’t put no stuff in it.

    Peace,
    Robert

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Enjoy the fantasy while it lasts. George Bueler made a living specializing in fueling "backyard boatbuilding dreams." I'm not saying to quit dreaming. No, keep dreaming. Just don't waste time and money starting anything until you've done a lot more time studying the subject. You're looking at a huge learning curve, a life-long one actually. It can be wonderfully fulfilling but you have to learn how to play your instrument before you can start playing jazz, if you follow my drift.

    Perhaps the first thing to consider is how you are going to fund the dreams you're having right now. That's a good place to start. You'll find picking up a small fiberglass boat (i.e. 20-30 ft) and sailing that until you've "learned the ropes" just as much fun and a lot less expense. I'm sure that once you learn more about sailing and boatbuilding, you'll be amazed at how many better options there are than trying to build a big cruising boat on the cheap. Just remember J.P. Morgan's famous answer to the question, "How much does a boat like this cost?" He said, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Cleek View Post
    Enjoy the fantasy while it lasts. George Bueler made a living specializing in fueling "backyard boatbuilding dreams." I'm not saying to quit dreaming. No, keep dreaming. Just don't waste time and money starting anything until you've done a lot more time studying the subject. You're looking at a huge learning curve, a life-long one actually. It can be wonderfully fulfilling but you have to learn how to play your instrument before you can start playing jazz, if you follow my drift.

    Perhaps the first thing to consider is how you are going to fund the dreams you're having right now. That's a good place to start. You'll find picking up a small fiberglass boat (i.e. 20-30 ft) and sailing that until you've "learned the ropes" just as much fun and a lot less expense. I'm sure that once you learn more about sailing and boatbuilding, you'll be amazed at how many better options there are than trying to build a big cruising boat on the cheap. Just remember J.P. Morgan's famous answer to the question, "How much does a boat like this cost?" He said, "If you have to ask, you can't afford it."
    I have been studying hacking and cyber security since I was 11. I am in school for it now.
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  32. #32
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Someone here had plans for a 30-35ft pilot house sailboat, I think it was from Albert strange but I don't see it anywhere.

    Edit:
    I found them they are in steel not wood sadly.
    Last edited by KainKelly; 09-14-2018 at 06:14 PM.

  33. #33
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Does anyone else see himself in Mr. Kelly? I was once ready to climb Everest, but settled on Mt. Mansfield right here in Vermont (could not see myself adding to the litter). Get the experience everyone is urging you to acquire to be sure you want to build own and operate a 50 foot sailboat. Something entirely different may strike your fancy along the way. As for the building methods you have been thinking about I would recommend more study of methods and materials. BTW, what is your current field of study?

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldad View Post
    Does anyone else see himself in Mr. Kelly? I was once ready to climb Everest, but settled on Mt. Mansfield right here in Vermont (could not see myself adding to the litter). Get the experience everyone is urging you to acquire to be sure you want to build own and operate a 50 foot sailboat. Something entirely different may strike your fancy along the way. As for the building methods you have been thinking about I would recommend more study of methods and materials. BTW, what is your current field of study?
    Yes, sailing school dingy, buy a boat in need of TLC, then build lastly.

    I am studying cyber security, but right now it is just IT basics. (Cables, hardware, networking, an the like.)

    ~Kain Kelly

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Seeking thoughts on ethics....

    Unfortunately Mr. Buehler pass away last year. I bought his book too. I sent an email to him for the Grizzly Bear project, but two days later I received a mail from his account that He is dead.

    I sent another mails to buy the plans but same mail sent automatically .

    I was dealing with Grizzly bear . All designs sems to easy to built but attractive part of this design is rig. İt is designed properly. I request from him in first mail that redesign that main sail as gaff . The orginal one was bermudan.

    The location of the mast allows big jib with boom and this is a big advantage for sailing. With gaff mainsail , the rig defined as "perfect " especially offshore sailing according to me.

    I do not know how I can reach the grizzly bear projects. Acoording to me this plan is one of the best easiy to built and seaworthy plan.

    Maybe near future , his plans start to sale by his parents.

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