Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 123 ... LastLast
Results 36 to 70 of 178

Thread: Always have a life preserver

  1. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,916

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    And you often see folks wearing dry suits, mostly in skiffs.
    What is good practice and what you see people doing are often not the same thing.

    Edit to say: but maybe your post was not meant sarcastically--that's how I read it, realized I might be wrong about that.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  2. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Actually, no. I'm not confusing anything. A drysuit with fleece underneath was exactly what I had in mind. That's what "dress for immersion" means:



    SOURCE

    Otherwise, as you say, even a PFD could well prove to be useless other than for body recovery. Especially since cold shock, besides the involuntary inhalation, can also trigger an instant cardiac arrest because rapid vasoconstriction forces the heart to suddenly work much harder to force blood through the body.

    I have a fair amount of cool to cold water swimming experience, and have a great respect for cold water.

    Tom
    Ah, sorry Tom. I misunderstood. We are in agreement then, and you seem to know more about it than I, since I prefer NOT to go swimming in cold water! I do think that a shore excursion in a Zodiac might not require the dry suit, but I would also expect the crew to operate the boat somewhat cautiously and with an eye to the dangers of cold water.

  3. #38
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Juneau, Alaska
    Posts
    4,576

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    What is good practice and what you see people doing are often not the same thing.

    Edit to say: but maybe your post was not meant sarcastically--that's how I read it, realized I might be wrong about that.

    Tom
    Wasn’t being sarcastic.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  4. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Victoria BC Canada
    Posts
    263

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Itís been several years since this happened but Iíve not shared it.

    I was on a small boat cruise in Prince William Sound for my 50th. An old boat several of you know. 3 crew and the captain. About 14 passengers. Kayaks and a Zodiac on the roof. A large salon for visiting and eating.

    Putter some place nice, go kayaking, eat a nice meal, putter, get ferried to shore and hike, putter, glacier, etc. The sun never set which was very cool.

    We pull into a nice cove and they lower the Zodiac. We are going to see a glacier. No life preservers to so I figure we are going about 35 yards to shore. Nope. The
    preservers were stored in the engine room to keep them dry. You had to request one because the engine room was off limits. I still regret not asking for one for me and my gal. It occurred to me but I didn't. I knew better.

    Off we go. Fleece, raingear, boots. 15 minutes later we are struggling up a river, a big outboard wide open. Big pieces of ice at the outlet.

    The glacier is beautiful. We hike, etc.

    Getting late. Sun is low. Getting cold. Back on the Zodiac. Captain at the tiller. About 8 people per side. Big outboard wide open. Flying down the river.

    About 35 yards before it open out to a bay, we hit a flat piece of ice. Its about 15 feet across. We catch about half of it. The Zodiac flies into the air. Fully 45 degrees. The folks on the upper tube bounce and fall towards us on the lower tube. They look like they are directly overhead. Our butts slide to the water and we lean forward but there is nothing to grab on the floor. The captain flies foward. No one has a firm purchase on anything. And we are still moving foward. Itís unclear for a moment which way things will settle.

    The port side digs in a little, the upper rail folks begin to land on the deck. I think that made the difference. The boat slaps down, right side up. The people on the upper rail end up on the floorboard and our knees....all in a tangle towards the front. . Embarrased, the captain waits a moment to see if we are losing air, we regain our positions, then we continue.

    It was not discussed afterwards. We were about 50 yards from shore and 35 yards from the bay. As wide as the river was, and as fast as it was running, and as cold as the glacial runnoff was....it could have been very bad. I still wonder if we could have made it to shore with or without a preserver. With a preserver there was a chance to exit the river mouth, get out of the current, and make for shore.

    The captain did jokingly refer to it as the euthanasia tour and said all out names were written into the log book in pencil just in case. Alaska is a fun place. Iím looking forward to visiting again.
    So many things wrong here.
    Thanks for posting bluedog.

    Firstly, you should have been told what to expect in the pre-trip safety briefing.
    If one person had clued in that PFD's would be prudent, others would have followed.
    The Captain was negligent, irresponsible and wrong.
    I wish you'd name the company as a public service announcement.
    Did the Captain wear the kill-switch landyard while operating the Zodiac?
    Another heads-up to poor Captaining protocol.
    And pencil entries in the log book, illegal.

    This company should not be operating commercially.

    What brought this to mind after so many years bluedog?

  5. #40
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,421

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Actually no. I think you are confusing cold shock with hypothermia. Cold shock is an involuntary physical response to sudden cold water immersion that forces you to take a breath. At which point it's game over unless you have supplemental floatation to bring you to the surface where you might have a chance. Short of a dry suit I don't think there is any amount of clothing that could reliably prevent cold shock.
    There's plenty of doctors on ice- and wild-swimming forums who write articles about the fact that training for cold water shock is quite practical and effective, and there's lots of videos of ice swimmers popping into the water.

    One interesting titbit is that yes, nothing short of a drysuit really helps - even a wetsuit doesn't prevent the initial shock. But the immersion does not necessarily lead to shock and death.



    So if one was really, really serious about taking all steps to improve safety, wouldn't one read the recommendations about how to avoid cold water shock and do the simple and easy training? It does seem odd that so much MOB advocacy centres on just wearing PFDs and so little is said about practising being in and getting out of the water.

    I find it rather concerning that 10-16% of drowning victims were wearing a PFD. So we raise consciousness about an issue that has something like a 1 in 380,000 chance of killing you in a year, but ignore the 10% chance that the recommended cure won't work.

    I just watched a rather amusing video promoting PFD use, which actually shows that some would call quite dangerous behaviour and has the slogan "wear a lifejacket. Don't risk your life". That seems like a typical unproductive exaggeration of the dangers of boating, and of the PFD's efficacy.

    Ironically, in the background is a famous surfing and swimming beach. On a good day there would be thousands of people in the surf there. None of them would wear a PFD, but apparently that's OK because they aren't on boats.
    Last edited by Chris249; 09-15-2018 at 04:08 PM.

  6. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,916

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Ah, sorry Tom. I misunderstood. We are in agreement then, and you seem to know more about it than I, since I prefer NOT to go swimming in cold water! I do think that a shore excursion in a Zodiac might not require the dry suit, but I would also expect the crew to operate the boat somewhat cautiously and with an eye to the dangers of cold water.
    Well, you raised a good point and I think I over-reacted a bit. I came fairly close to dying once when I was young and stupid(er)--17, I think--due to cold shock, and have never thought the same about cold water since then. Luckily my head did not go under that time. I'm much more cautious now.

    I agree that in conditions where you're unlikely to capsize, a drysuit may be overkill, but it does sound like the Zodiac crew was quite irresponsible here. My evolving rule in cold water sailing is to wear my drysuit when I feel the need to reef. Or better yet, sail in warmer water!

    The funny thing is, cold water swimming isn't so bad. But you train up to it very slowly, with things like icy cold showers and baths, sleeping with the windows open and heat off in winter, etc. and then start with short swims. You can build up to quite a tolerance for cold if you immerse gradually, even wearing just a swim suit. But that cold shock reaction is no joke.

    Quote Originally Posted by jspd1 View Post
    Wasn’t being sarcastic.
    I thought that might be the case after re-reading your post. Sorry for the misinterpretation.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  7. #42
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    3,808

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Ian is correct that the Captain in this instance is not doing the job right. The life jackets/PFD's must be available, and should be worn when in the skiff or RHIB, or even when on deck of the Mothership. The Captain and crew are required by law to give a Passenger Safety Briefing which describes the proper use and availability of Life Saving Apparatus.
    Experiments have shown that a Standard...key hole life jacket can extend survival in cold water by about 40 minutes. These are pretty uncomfortable, but most PFD's will provide similar protection, because the design somewhat compensates for the diminished insulation.

  8. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,916

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by gilberj View Post
    Experiments have shown that a Standard...key hole life jacket can extend survival in cold water by about 40 minutes.
    However, not if the wearer dies instantly upon immersion due to cold shock.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  9. #44
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    23,327

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    UK version.

    About five years ago I was in a dinghy with a friend, a well known writer, in her dinghy, rowing out to her well known boat, which she was very kindly lending to my sons and I, Mirelle having gone in the divorce when their mother found a chap who suited her better, for familiarisation.

    Our little local river seems to claim a life most years, and has claimed several friends, but because they drown from dinghies they don’t make it into the “yachting deaths” figures.

    My friend is the daughter of a yacht broker. We have both sailed all our lives, from early childhood, so there was well over a century of experience in that dinghy. What there was not was a lifejacket, a bailer, buoyancy, lanyards on the rowlocks, warm clothing, a torch or an anchor.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  10. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    15,740

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    I can hardly bear the suspense Andrew. How does the story unfold from there?

  11. #46
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    3,808

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    ACB...I have been similarly negligent, despite knowing better. I sooth my guilt just a little knowing I am far less likely to become a casualty than most people, like you I have been messing around in boats, for over 60 years, and still have most of my marbles and most of my abilities.........

  12. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    16,081

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Ironically, in the background is a famous surfing and swimming beach. On a good day there would be thousands of people in the surf there. None of them would wear a PFD, but apparently that's OK because they aren't on boats.
    Are there lifeguards at that beach?

    My friend is the daughter of a yacht broker. We have both sailed all our lives, from early childhood, so there was well over a century of experience in that dinghy. What there was not was a lifejacket, a bailer, buoyancy, lanyards on the rowlocks, warm clothing, a torch or an anchor.
    Many of us are guilty of complacency at least some of the time. I know I am.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  13. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,421

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Are there lifeguards at that beach?
    Sometimes, in the most crowded area. Not where there are normally significant numbers of surfers. Nor is there usually a lifesaver during much of the week, during winter, or where many keen swimmers swim, or where quite a few people swim at the far end of the beach, miles away.


  14. #49
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Dorset UK
    Posts
    78

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Our local coastguard & lifeboat team were out yesterday after two men were spotted in Weymouth Bay UK 2.5 miles offshore. Their small fishing boat sank suddenly, they had been in the water for 2 hours clinging to a fuel tank. Only one had a life jacket. They were very lucky to be spotted by a passing yacht & luckily the water is currently 20 deg C.

    I windsurf this place a lot & am often several miles out to sea, with a wetsuit & buoyancy aid in the water its nigh on impossible to be seen even from a boat if the water is slightly rough. The area is frequented by swimmers crossing the bay & I often don't see them when I'm windsurfing until they are damn close and at 20-30mph that gets a bit scary. There is one guy who swims with hi-viz Buoy & I can see him half a mile away.

    After meeting the Lifeboat guys on an open day a few weeks ago they said get a GPS EPIRB for sure. The single best device they reckon, instant ping & a heli will be on its way in mins. I will be buying one at the boatshow this week & carry it on me at anytime on the water, boating or windsurfing.

    The RNLI (Lifeboats in the UK) guys are volunteers in the UK supported by voluntary funding!
    http://www.weymouthlifeboat.org.uk/# there is a link to yesterday shout.
    Last edited by cptsideways; 09-16-2018 at 03:54 AM.

  15. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,421

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Sounds pretty typical - a bunch of people (the swimmers) are perfectly happy in the water. A couple of people go out in a small powerboat, capsize, and there's a near tragedy. Arguably the problem is not being in the water without a PFD, as the swimmers prove, but being in a small capsizable powerboat in waters it should not be in.

    Down here in Oz the vast majority of boating related drowning deaths are related to small open powerboats and capsizes, yet there are moves to make those of us who go out in ocean-going craft wear PFDs at all times despite the risk being extremely low.

    I note from UK stats that 36% of drowning victims in 2017 (last year of available figures) were suicides or victims of crime. Such people cannot realistically be taken into account for the oft-quoted statistics of 85-90% of drowning victims being without PFDs. Nor can the 3 cyclists who drowned, the 10 motorists, those who drown in bathtubs, etc. There may be some double counting, but it appear that there are many people who should not realistically be counted in stats about people drowning without PFDs. After all, the 36% of Brits who drowned through suicide or crime are not in the same situation as a yachtsman cruising around a local bay in 5 knots of wind.

  16. #51
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    15,740

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Are there lifeguards at that beach?



    Many of us are guilty of complacency at least some of the time. I know I am.

    Kevin
    Go ahead, call me complacent. I don't really care.

  17. #52
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    2,286

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    What got me thinking about this was hearing the final recording of*Andrew McAuley who died during an attempt to cross from Australia to New Zealand. I don't know if the water is cold off the NZ coast but he sounded hypothermic. I was trying to figure out his situation. Apparently his kayak had flotation since they recovered it. And as I would hope. Maybe he had to exit for some reason and couldn't get back in? Maybe it was flooded or the sea was too rough? And I think he said "I'm going down."

    I was trying to understand why he couldn't reboard, and why his life preserver wasn't keeping him afloat and my mind wandered back to that trip.

    Thanks for the interesting discussion.

  18. #53
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    16,081

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Sometimes, in the most crowded area.
    The question was: Does that include the," most famous swimming and surfing area," you referenced in the earlier post?

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  19. #54
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Victoria BC Canada
    Posts
    263

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    What got me thinking about this was hearing the final recording of*Andrew McAuley who died during an attempt to cross from Australia to New Zealand. I don't know if the water is cold off the NZ coast but he sounded hypothermic. I was trying to figure out his situation. Apparently his kayak had flotation since they recovered it. And as I would hope. Maybe he had to exit for some reason and couldn't get back in? Maybe it was flooded or the sea was too rough? And I think he said "I'm going down."

    I was trying to understand why he couldn't reboard, and why his life preserver wasn't keeping him afloat and my mind wandered back to that trip.

    Thanks for the interesting discussion.
    Thanks bd.

    Reboarding a kayak is not easy in calm water, I've been trained to do it.
    It's a lot easier with a paddle float... in calm water.

    Not all PFD's (Personal Floatation Device) are created equal.
    Inflatables typically have 35 pounds of buoyancy while most PFD vests have the required 14 pounds.
    Many inflatables will keep your mouth out of the water when unconscious.
    Not all inflatables inflate when triggered.

    Fair winds

  20. #55
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,421

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    The question was: Does that include the," most famous swimming and surfing area," you referenced in the earlier post?

    Kevin
    As I said, there are sometimes lifeguards in some parts of the area. In other parts of that famous swimming and surfing area there are no lifeguards and are quite popular with swimmers and surfers, who don't have to wear lifejackets.

  21. #56
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,421

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    What got me thinking about this was hearing the final recording of*Andrew McAuley who died during an attempt to cross from Australia to New Zealand. I don't know if the water is cold off the NZ coast but he sounded hypothermic. I was trying to figure out his situation. Apparently his kayak had flotation since they recovered it. And as I would hope. Maybe he had to exit for some reason and couldn't get back in? Maybe it was flooded or the sea was too rough? And I think he said "I'm going down."

    I was trying to understand why he couldn't reboard, and why his life preserver wasn't keeping him afloat and my mind wandered back to that trip.

    Thanks for the interesting discussion.
    If I recall correctly, the lightweight ss rods holding the cockpit cover had failed, leaving him fully exposed while sleeping. Secondly, he had to get into the water to get to the hatches where he kept some supplies. Thirdly, it was (I think) around 45 degrees south so quite cold. So, if I recall correctly, he had to go swimming and re-board, had no shelter to warm up in, and was in a gale in cold water.

  22. #57
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,421

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    While looking for stats I noted that in Australia, about 15% of those who drowned while boating had taken illegal drugs. bout 15% were too drunk to drive. Of those cases where medical information is available, about 25% had a medical condition that was a factor in the drowning.

    One of the problems with this major report was that it made the headline claim that about 8% of victims were not wearing PFDs, which is misleading since in 46% of case there was no information about whether one was worn or not. In a further 11.4% of cases, the victims were on watercraft where PFDs are not used, like body boards and surfboards. Thirty five percent of other victims were not wearing a PFD. So actually, 20% of people who drowned from boats were wearing PFDs. Given the small number of people who wore PFDs at the time, their significance as a saviour may be overblown.

    I'm not arguing that if the average person goes overboard, wearing a PFD won't help. However, some of the headline stats are misleading since the non-users they refer to include a significant proportion of suicides, drunks, people who are off their skull, and people who had other relevant health problems.

    Secondly, the study confirmed that there is a ten-year average of just 1.6 drowning deaths per annum among the 380,000 people who sail yachts in Australia each year, including many that could not have been prevented by a PFD. Given that there's a chance of about one in 380,000 per year that an average Australian yachty will drown, the other contributing factors and the vastly higher probability of dying through other causes, not wearing a PFD all the time looks to be quite reasonable. There may be many other ways to improve one's chances, and many other areas of greater risk to look at first.

  23. #58
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    East Quogue,NY
    Posts
    16,081

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    As I said, there are sometimes lifeguards in some parts of the area. In other parts of that famous swimming and surfing area there are no lifeguards and are quite popular with swimmers and surfers, who don't have to wear lifejackets.


    0f course there are life guarded beaches and also those without. Of corse the guards dont work 24/7. I get it.

    I'm asking about the part of the famous area in the background of the ad for lifejacket wear that you cite; in that specific area, are there lifeguards?

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  24. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,452

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Always a debatable topic. I usually wear a flotation jacket-bouyancy aid while using my yak, but only if its cold, otherwise it is on the rear deck with the paddle float. Only once worn a lifejacket while on board a yacht, but was also wearing a full on hooded immersion suit, as i was prepared to be going over the side with a half inflated dinghy...luckily that was not needed.
    I have swam in ice-melt rivers which gave me the respect for cold water shock and how the body can just start to be non responsive to brain commands due to cold, a lifejacket in that situation would just make your body easier to recover as you died of hypothermia if not dressed right.
    I will carry a PFD if the dinghy trips are beyond my swim range, which gets smaller every year. I have fished a few bodies out, none wearing lifejackets, dunno whether it would have saved them or not, lots of outside factors than just a person in the water. Self responsibility at the end of the day.
    Have to agree with the above conclusion about that charter skipper, that would not wash here, complacency.

  25. #60
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    23,327

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I can hardly bear the suspense Andrew. How does the story unfold from there?
    Nothing happened. I’m here to tell the (non) tale!
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  26. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Victoria BC Canada
    Posts
    263

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    If I recall correctly, the lightweight ss rods holding the cockpit cover had failed, leaving him fully exposed while sleeping. Secondly, he had to get into the water to get to the hatches where he kept some supplies. Thirdly, it was (I think) around 45 degrees south so quite cold. So, if I recall correctly, he had to go swimming and re-board, had no shelter to warm up in, and was in a gale in cold water.
    Having a spray-skirt (cockpit cover) fail in rough seas is bad, very bad.
    Water enters the bilge (down-flooding) and the free-surface effect can easily lead to a roll-over.
    A difficult reboarding is then followed by another free-surface knockdown.
    It can be a futile, exhausting endeavour.
    People die this way every year.

  27. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    BC Coast
    Posts
    3,808

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    The simple fact that we have survived, despite our alleged negligence by not wearing life jackets or PFD's is not really a reason for not bothering to consider this important. Certainly people with more skill, operating vessels/on the water are massively less likely to become one of those statistics. The fact that some people train and can swim for extended periods in cold water, has little to do with those thousands who cannot.
    Nearly every critical investigation into marine accidents involving people in the water has made a strong comment about life jackets. Two in recent years in Canada, investigated by the TSB, Leviathan II and Catatonic both highlight persons not wearing lifejackets as contributing to fatalities and added trauma.
    I nearly always now wear an inflatable lifejacket when messing around in boats, partly to set an example to those (most people) who have less experience and skills on the water. I don't think anyone is recommending everyone be suitably LJ attired on a cruising yacht at anchor or a boat where it is large enough to be fully enclosed and operated entirely from within.
    Seat Belts in motor vehicles are mandatory in most places these days. I see life jackets in a pretty similar light. Now that there are a number of relatively comfortable casual lifejackets and PFD's available ( our ancestors had nothing until those awful cork things were developed, then those kapok filled double pillows....absolutely unwearable as far as working wear), I do not think there is a good argument for not wearing them now
    I have 2 inflatable PFD's and 4 additional PFD's in several sizes on my boat. We sail outside....on deck. I now wear a LJ virtually all the time, and encourage/require all others on board to wear them except in the lightest-wind/ calm seas/warmest conditions.
    Please don't rag me too much if you see me about on the water without a PFD. It still happens, though not often.
    Last edited by gilberj; 09-17-2018 at 11:48 AM.

  28. #63
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Northern Europe
    Posts
    9,452

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Must add, if im on the mother ship and underway, i would most likely be wearing a harness, rather that, than wearing a lifejacket, being in the water watching your boat sail over the horizon.........

  29. #64
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    15,740

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Nothing happened. I’m here to tell the (non) tale!
    Actually, that's what I thought. My comment was a little tongue in cheek, and I wonder if your post was too. I think it's pretty normal for people to dinghy out to their boat without a full survival pack. And I hope not to see a day where the kit you describe becomes mandatory. I do don a life jacket, yes I still prefer to call it that, a PFD sounds more like a jet ski, if I'm dinghying alone at night in winter after a few drinks.

  30. #65
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,421

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    0f course there are life guarded beaches and also those without. Of corse the guards dont work 24/7. I get it.

    I'm asking about the part of the famous area in the background of the ad for lifejacket wear that you cite; in that specific area, are there lifeguards?

    Kevin


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
    After checking the video, it appears that the answer is no, there are no lifeguards in the part of the famous swimming area that can be seen in the background of the video. I can't see what difference it make to the point, which is that the video says that people who are NOT in the water should wear a PFD, while ignoring the fact that in that area there are regularly plenty of people who ARE in the water and do not wear PFDs.

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    1,137

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    The root cause of the op's incident is negligent operation of the zodiac. No one seems interested in discussing that aspect. The required safety equipment is an ancillary issue that may or may not have saved any lives. the operation of the boat is the first thing that should have been addressed.
    Last edited by navydog; 09-17-2018 at 08:23 PM.

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    2,921

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    The root cause of the op's incident is negligent operation of the zodiac. No one seems interested in discussing that aspect. The required safety equipment is an ancillary issue that may or may not have saved any lives. the operation of the boat is the first thing that should have been addressed.
    Good point. I believe that the OP did intend it as a cautionary tale about wearing PFDs, but the story is more relevant as a cautionary tale about the casual approach to safety by the crew of the unnamed vessel, starting with why the incident with the Zodiac occurred in the first place. And honestly I'm less concerned with the incident itself than by the subsequent avoidance of the issue. It may be that the crew addressed the incident among themselves and have now incorporated additional instruction on operating the shore boat in icy waters into crew training exercises and safety briefings, but the immediate reaction - to make a joke out of it - is not encouraging.

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK
    Posts
    23,327

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Actually, that's what I thought. My comment was a little tongue in cheek, and I wonder if your post was too. I think it's pretty normal for people to dinghy out to their boat without a full survival pack. And I hope not to see a day where the kit you describe becomes mandatory. I do don a life jacket, yes I still prefer to call it that, a PFD sounds more like a jet ski, if I'm dinghying alone at night in winter after a few drinks.
    No, my post was not tongue in cheek. I think it's unwise to use a dinghy without the precautions that I listed - lifejacket(s), a bailer, buoyancy, lanyards on the rowlocks, warm clothing, a torch and an anchor. I wouldn't call those a "full survival pack" - just ordinary common sense.

    It's many years since I owned a lifejacket (as opposed to a buoyancy aid) which did not include an integral harness.
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Deepest Darkest Wales
    Posts
    19,841

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    Used to be called "horse sense", Not too many of them around either.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,421

    Default Re: Always have a life preserver

    With respect (honestly) what's the worst that can happen if you lose a lanyard-less rowlock, in a narrow calm waterway? And how often does one anchor when rowing to a yacht?Obviously there are waterways where these things are important, but in many areas such items and others such as warm clothes are not normally needed.

    I come from one of two countries where cyclists must wear helmets. What's the relevance? Well, although the topic is hotly debated there is evidence that once helmets were required, the extra hassle and the heightened perception of danger caused many people to stop cycling. There's lots of evidence that the drop in numbers marginalised cyclists and therefore increased the accident rate of those who stayed cycling, and also that the drop-off in cycling lead to many deaths through lack of exercise.

    To some this may seem like a long bow to draw, but to some who have experienced it, it's not. Similarly, in recent years Australian ocean racing has gone even further in requiring more safety gear on yachts - and our casualty rate continues to climb and fleets have dwindled in comparison to those in other countries. Since about one-third of rescues in some ocean races have come from fellow competitors, a fall in competitor numbers will probably increase the risk to the remaining racers.

    These, along with the long-accepted fact that humans will often take more risks once one danger is removed, show that there is often a revenge factor in the use of safety gear. That, along with the dodgy stats that officials churn out with respect to PFD use and the fact that (for yachties anyway) drowning is an extremely unlikely event, may lead one to think that calls for universal PFD use are dubious.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •