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Thread: Do we still need that militia?

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by bluedog225 View Post
    Assuming your public policy goal is to reduce gun deaths, the test is generally what is the least regulation needed to achieve your goal. I thought handguns were responsible for many times more deaths. Therefore your proposal would be flawed.
    Aka not sensible. Can we have laws to try to keep guns out of the hands of felons. Yep.

    Also, what's an assault rifle? If I paint my grandfather's old Browning 270 black is it included?
    So you're not worried about trying to stop episodes such as the one where a person who was not a felon used longarms to kill 50 people? Allowing that sort of incident sounds pretty flawed, too.

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    I have to point out something that always seems to be missing from a Militia somehow prevailing against any branch of the Military.

    Doesn't a single simple Mortar WIN against any accumulation of any caliber of fire arm?

    Ignoring field cannons, armored personnel carriers, tanks, and then there are the gatlin guns on the Warthogs......

    just sayin'

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Doesn't a single simple Mortar WIN against any accumulation of any caliber of fire arm?

    Ignoring field cannons, armored personnel carriers, tanks, and then there are the gatlin guns on the Warthogs......

    I haven't served, but I think it does.

    That, then, begs the question: Why do armies have infantry at all, if they are effectively effete in the face of modern firepower?

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  4. #144
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    I have to point out something that always seems to be missing from a Militia somehow prevailing against any branch of the Military.

    Doesn't a single simple Mortar WIN against any accumulation of any caliber of fire arm?

    Ignoring field cannons, armored personnel carriers, tanks, and then there are the gatlin guns on the Warthogs......

    just sayin'
    A well armed and "well trained" rifle company is a force to be reckoned with. A mortar is only as good as the forward observer. And in various terrain, worthless. Not nearly as mobile as a grunt with a rifle.

    And at some point you need personnel on the ground.
    PaulF

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    thanks for the assessment, i'll keep it just the same though.
    The results of multiple attempts in Afghanistan over several centuries concur with your thoughts.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    target practice doesn’t make you part of a well regulated militia so don’t make facile allusions to that point.
    A well regulated militia practice's shooting a targets. To include every Military Service in the US.
    Last edited by BrianW; 09-11-2018 at 12:17 AM.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Alan does your militia do that thing where you crawl through the mud under barbed wire while your 'comrades' shoot live ammunition over your shoulders? that's like hardcore **** man. is your militia hardcore?
    We did that once, in Basic Training. While cool, it was hardly elemental in becoming a trained member of a militia/Military Service.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    alan, does anybody in your militia have a confederate battle flag bumper sticker or tattoo?

    honest question bro
    Well, up until a year or so ago, it was common. But then again, in my days, tattoos had to be hidden while wearing the uniform.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    1000 yards? You're hamburger, dude. "Pink mist" we call it.

    You're out ranged by a factor of 16x. 30mm high explosive - think "hand grenades ". At 600/min. And that's just the LITTLE stuff.

    Yeah, WOW, 1000 yards! Bring it, militia boy. LMAO

    Did the gunship defeat the North Vietnamese?
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Did the gunship defeat the North Vietnamese?
    Don't be silly. Neither the North Vietnamese army nor the Viet Cong were anything close to citizen militias.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  11. #151
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    So Alan, a serious question - which have conveniently ignored.
    Being able to hit a target is obviously important, but do you guys practice all the other stuff that a militia would have to engage in?
    That's a valid question. But, if you know what POG stands for, or Fobbit, you'll know that a huge percentage of the military doesn't do those things either.


    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Hard core first aid - the other dudes WILL be shooting back, and they train too.
    I've had multiple 'combat lifesaver courses' as a civilian. Courses required by the military, taught by civilians. It's not all that technical. Some tourniquet training, inserting a needle to relieve tension pneumothorax from a sucking chest wound, using blood clotting powders and dressing, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Communications - the other dudes have encrypted radios (so you can't hear them), and practice all that October whisky fox tango chit, so there is no confusion on the battlefield.
    I don't want to burst a bubble, but most 11B's don't have the clearance for secure radio stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Physical fitness. They are young, sans beerbelly, and work out. Maybe y'all are too.
    You're spot on with this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Logistics - one thing the US military excels at, getting stuff from where it is now, to where it needs to be, in huge quantities.
    For awhile... but where does that 'stuff' come from? The answer is from civilians. Can we spell sabatoge?

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Strategy, tactics, blah, blah. They do those big military exercises regularly, for a reason, and analyze how it all went.
    And still lose we against overwhelming civilian populations.. Vietnam and Afghanistan.
    Last edited by BrianW; 09-11-2018 at 12:18 AM.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Don't be silly. Neither the North Vietnamese army nor the Viet Cong were anything close to citizen militias.
    No? They were a motivated army of the local population fighting an army on their home turf. Where did the Viet Cong come from...?

    Do you feel the Army attack helicopter of the time was a huge factor in the outcome?
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I suppose one could make a case that Afghanistan, Iraq, Korea, Vietnam, were just to keep our military well practiced. In case we should need them for a war of merit.
    Great examples of where a large civilian population prevented an Army from winning.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    No you do not. A reserve arm of the military, like our Territorials is a good idea, but unlike your National Guard which is your (fairly) Well Regulated Militia, deploying them or regular troops against citizens is a known to be a BAD IDEA.
    Which is why we have a Second Amendment.

    Because we know we need a militia (Armed Services, National Guard), citizens should also have the right to bear arms, to repel an overzealous militia.

    It's right in the wording of the 2nd Amendment.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    We don't hear about all the gun incidents. Stephanie Ruhle takes a moment every week or two and gives numbers to date for this year. Last time I caught that moment, was a week or two ago, but we are fast approaching 40,000 violent gun incidents so far this year.

    This is insane.
    Very well could be.

    Did you see where the NPR reputed the 270 school shootings reported this year? Statistics has become the most powerful tool.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Good. back to the OP. The second has been corrupted by the SCOTUS through the years, and as the militia as called for in the Constitution has been replaced by the National Guard, the second is now superfluous and can be repealed.
    So the militia has been replaced by a federally controlled entity, the National Guard. Therefore the desire to retain the right to bear arms by the civilian population is still legit as per the 2nd Amendment.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    No, you don't have to be a weekend warrior militia member to help out in natural disasters.

    The poster is silly hyperbolic.
    Really, because it's one of their major recruiting tools?
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    I have to point out something that always seems to be missing from a Militia somehow prevailing against any branch of the Military.

    Doesn't a single simple Mortar WIN against any accumulation of any caliber of fire arm?
    Nope..

    motor.jpg

    At first, every time the incoming alarm would go off, I'd run for the bunker. Then I realized there was a good chance I was running right into the incoming round. So, at night, I'd roll out of the bed, and throw my plate carrier over my head, or if really tired just lay in bed and accept fate.

    Trust me... you'd do the same after awhile.


    Quote Originally Posted by BrianM View Post
    Ignoring field cannons, armored personnel carriers, tanks, and then there are the gatlin guns on the Warthogs......

    just sayin'
    Other warriors seem to have faced them.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.

    It is clear from this version that the well-armed and well-regulated militia refers to the military, or the National Guard, rather than weekend warrior militias.
    Eh... I read this part...

    The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; a well armed and well regulated militia being the best security of a free country; but no person religiously scrupulous of bearing arms shall be compelled to render military service in person.
    As referring to a conscientious objector. Really has nothing to do with the 2nd Amendment.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    It is right there:


    "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,
    Yep, we need an Army, no denying it.

    But, our founding fathers just defeated an Army, a tool of an out of control government, so decided that since we need an Army, we need a balance. Therefore...

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    ...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed, so that they can repel that militia if it gets overzealous."

    A militia militia, so to speak.
    Thanks for making that so clear.
    "Simple minds discuss people, Average minds discuss things, and Great minds discuss ideas".

  21. #161
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Sounds like a case for universal conscription barring religious objections. The draft in other words. And no exceptions for rich daddy's and 'bone spurs'. And for 'militia' you read the National military or the National Guard. Or a third force theoretically intended to oppose the first one but financed, armed and 'regulated' by the same government.
    Seems rather contradictory to me.

    Just say, f'rinstance, a part of the country (A) disagrees with the way the other part (B) is governing an it's laws, and it's citizen militia take up arms (A) to either enforce their preferred laws on the other part (B) of the country, or separate themselves (A from B) and become another State. Surely the para above almost ensures that it will happen, as it did. And if the para is still in the document and the reading of the 2nd is correct, then the circumstances still exist.
    Last edited by skuthorp; 09-11-2018 at 01:20 AM.

  22. #162
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    No? They were a motivated army of the local population fighting an army on their home turf. Where did the Viet Cong come from...?

    Do you feel the Army attack helicopter of the time was a huge factor in the outcome?
    On the other hand, Brian, I've read a huge number of people claim that if the US had not fought under such severe political restrictions (such as not targeting many bridges and not chasing fighter jets to their bases close to China, IIRC) they would have won easily in Vietnam. Some of them are veterans.

    If there was a showdown between the US forces and the citizens, would there be such restrictions in place?

    On a tangent, I still can't understand why so many US citizens have so little faith in their own compatriots and in their own political system. Why do they feel that they will be the only modern western country to be taken over by a dictator? Don't they have faith in the Constitution and the system it set up, like the rest of us have faith in our systems?

  23. #163
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    "Why do they feel that they will be the only modern western country to be taken over by a dictator?"

    Well that's a question for the times isn't it?

    He's got a couple of good coaches on the subject….

  24. #164
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Fair call. One wonders whether the people who a few years ago said they would fight to defend democracy from the president will say the same thing now their guy is in office.

  25. #165
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by twodot View Post
    More evidence that it is obvious that militia refers to an official military, and does not refer to a weekend warrior militia militia, comes from George Mason, in 1788:

    "Mr. Chairman, a worthy member has asked who are the militia, if they be not the people of this country, and if we are not to be protected from the fate of the Germans, Prussians, &c., by our representation? I ask, Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor; but they may be confined to the lower and middle classes of the people, granting exclusion to the higher classes of the people. If we should ever see that day, the most ignominious punishments and heavy fines may be expected. Under the present government, all ranks of people are subject to militia duty. Under such a full and equal representation as ours, there can be no ignominious punishment inflicted. But under this national, or rather consolidated government, the case will be different. The representation being so small and inadequate, they will have no fellow-feeling for the people. They may discriminate people in their own predicament, and exempt from duty all the officers and lowest creatures of the national government. If there were a more particular definition of their powers, and a clause exempting the militia from martial law except when in actual service, and from fines and punishments of an unusual nature, then we might expect that the militia would be what they are. But, if this be not the case, we cannot say how long all classes of people will be included in the militia. There will not be the same reason to expect it, because the government will be administered by different people. We know what they are now, but know not how soon they may be altered."

    it's funny that all these high powered lawyers and supreme court justices have poured over the meaning of the 2nd for DECADES... but ole 2dot knows stuff they don't and they're all wrong.


    NEVER MIND GUYS... 2dot figured out what it REALLY MEANS

  26. #166
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Great examples of where a large civilian population prevented an Army from winning.
    What prevents us from winning becomes a question of its own. I remember Barry Goldwater, concerning Vietnam, saying something to the effect; let's either go in whole heartedly and win, or pull the hell out.

    It's moot for this thread. The milita referenced in the second amendment is described/defined in Art. 1. THAT militia was an arm OF the government and was no longer necessary once we got National Guard, police, standing armies, etc.

    "Militia" today has an entirely different connotation Today's 'miliita' is not being armed or trained by the government, and the government does not call it up to enforce laws or stifle uprisings. today's 'militia' is likely to be the uprising.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  27. #167
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Which is why we have a Second Amendment.

    Because we know we need a militia (Armed Services, National Guard), citizens should also have the right to bear arms, to repel an overzealous militia.

    It's right in the wording of the 2nd Amendment.
    By your argument, the government should be arming the citizens.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  28. #168
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianW View Post
    Which is why we have a Second Amendment.

    Because we know we need a militia (Armed Services, National Guard), citizens should also have the right to bear arms, to repel an overzealous militia.

    It's right in the wording of the 2nd Amendment.
    You are going to have to justify that
    "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
    Because I can't see it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  29. #169
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    So much for the consept of "Reasonable force".
    Self-defence is a legal doctrine which says that a person may use reasonable force in the defence of themself or another.
    Blowing a persons brains out kind of exceeds that principle.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  30. #170
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    An obvious point: The military forces of just about every country on earth are staffed by highly-trained professionals who have studied the best available information about how to fight and win wars. That's their job, and I presume most of them are reasonably competent at it. They want to most effective fighting force possible, given their budget. No country on earth relies on a citizen militia as its military force if it has enough money and organization to do otherwise.

    While a citizen militia may have possibly been useful in 1789 (particularly for guarding against slave rebellions), it is as now as obsolete for national defense as a flintlock. If it were an effective military force, military professionals would organize things that way.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  31. #171
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Wright View Post
    The vast majority of us, in fact an overwhelming majority of us, agree to the concept of reasonable force.

    The vast majority of us, in fact an overwhelming majority of us, agree that blowing a persons brains out exceeds that principle almost all of the time.

    Are you some sort of antisocial psychopath who thinks otherwise? What's wrong with you?
    You were the one that suggested being capable of blowing some ones brains out was considered to be appropriate by
    many existing state constitutions
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  32. #172
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    What's the difference between a self-proclaimed militia and the average street gang?

  33. #173
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    What's the difference between a self-proclaimed militia and the average street gang?
    Perhaps their intent??
    PaulF

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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan McCosh View Post
    What's the difference between a self-proclaimed militia and the average street gang?
    One of them are a tad sanctimonious.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  35. #175
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    Default Re: Do we still need that militia?

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    Perhaps their intent??
    Might ask Huey Newton.

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