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Thread: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

  1. #36
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    None from your last 4 posts, but I note Rick can see your nutshell pics, so maybe its just me? Same on ipad and laptop here.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Appreciating your effort...cant see any pics since #7. Please do carry on!

  3. #38
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    Default 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Arghh annoying.
    I,ll go back to the dependable method. Pity, the google pics Avenue is easy and quick.
    Standby.
    T


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    It would Those details make a world of difference. That's a nice stout pushpit she has too. I'm surprised Rick hasnt called in, he's a fan of Tasman Seabirds, and has rebuilt a deck or two.
    Here is a profile I came up with for my own boat. The relief on the back would not be needed for your boat as there is no selvedge edge of canvas to deal with the profile is easily cut in two passes using the curved router bits shown here. The corner caps require a bit of fiddling and carving to get the curves right but the results are work the effort.
    Jay

  5. #40
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck


  6. #41
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Same for me, can only see the few pictures on top of page 1, and now Jay's. Not on any of my computers with WIN 10 and Firefox, nor with Tapatalk on my Android.
    fair winds, Dody

    "They did not know it was impossible so they did it" - Mark Twain

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...h-Tonga/page12

  7. #42
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck


  8. #43
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Gypsy, great looking boat, Teak over ply decks have a lifespan, (as does a layed (planked) deck...), when it's done, most particularly with overlay decks, it's done! The problem is that without the x-ray eyes, the slowly failing deck can get up to leaking into important structures and causing rot in subdeck and other unpleasant places... A replacement deck of plywood is a good strong choice, if the build details and ultimate waterproofing are well attended to. If possible a glued multiple layer approach yields a far more stiff and stable deck if you are using plywood, the sum being greater than the parts...
    As to the windlass/chain locker; often the weight of the rode is a significant problem for performance on a long overhang boat like this, so a previous owner may have felt moving the whole arrangement aft was the right choice...doesn't sound like they fully thought through the whole scenario...Sometimes, if you have to get through a v-berth area, you can install a 'naval tube' to get the rode, and the associated water and mud, through the living space and down to the chain locker. remember that height of the 'fall' from the lower end of the naval tube( which must be built strong enough to resist any loading the rode could apply to it...) is what is the important part of the calculation, to try and ensure safe, efficient operation. Skene's Elements I believe has a very useful chapter devoted to trying to design a good working anchor rode management arrangement.
    Wishing you the best, Cheers, SteveBT

  9. #44
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Hope that is all good now.

    Back on board Saturday and Sunday. Pull up the teak cover.
    Very easily done from the bow. Around the cabin top there is a well bedded and solid epoxy system which kept the timber there dry and solid. The stern was in much better condition and thus tiresome to rip up. Around the hatch aft there seems to be a new piece of ply that stood its ground. All the other ply i am convinced is much older, possibly original, and in terrible condition.

    Attachment 22545

    Attachment 22548

    The multi tool came out to help. we have a competition to see who could get the biggest single piece of 'banana skin'.

    Attachment 22547


    Attachment 22549

    Attachment 22550

    The teak had been epoxied down. It clings tenaciously to the first ply. the first ply pretty much doesn't hold ont the second at all, and in many areas its turned to compost.
    Last edited by gypsie; 09-09-2018 at 10:29 PM.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Some compost shots.
    Not the only ones by any means, and not restricted to penetrations either.

    Chain plate hole.
    IMG_5124.jpg

    A mess just abaft the cockpit, starboard side.

    IMG_5125.jpg

    Slightly heartened about the cockpit coaming.
    Looks like only small parts, lines where water dripped off a join and such. Below the teak it seems to be fine and solid. so probably cut it out and fill, fair and paint.

    The jib winches unfortunately seem to be hung off the coaming, rather than connected to the deck. the ply is fitted under them, so possibly need to take those whole assemblies off to get at the deck underneath.

    Observations so far - Jay, couldn't agree more about the sub deck problems. Looking at it coming up, water was bound to get in, once in there is just no way for the water to get away and as we know rot is inevitable.
    Phil, could be worth taking up the whole deck if you are taking her out of the water.

    The boat also had a particular smell below decks when left un-lived in. As the timber is coming up its clear the smell was rotting ply wood.

    Had to chop out the detail under the hammer in that last picture. Pity.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Not sure whats going on, but in #44 i can only see links to the images, not the images themselves......
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Here is a profile I came up with for my own boat. The relief on the back would not be needed for your boat as there is no selvedge edge of canvas to deal with the profile is easily cut in two passes using the curved router bits shown here. The corner caps require a bit of fiddling and carving to get the curves right but the results are work the effort.
    Jay
    Nice Jay - Thanks.
    I can do that. I like it. Something i'll consider when i get to sanding back the paint work and into the final furlong.

    Your image of the canvas top brings to mind my treatment of the edges of the deck....
    Should run through a few ideas and post them here for comment. My thinking is how the deck and Hull are essentially 2 different parts. If i epoxy a glass edge down from the deck onto the hull will they work each other apart?
    Also glass needs a radiused edge, how to manage that with bulwarks.

    To note, a large amount of rot seems to have crept in from the outer edge of the deck and worked its way inwards. Significant weak spot!
    Last edited by gypsie; 09-09-2018 at 10:42 PM.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Those previously missing pics are visible now. I have a couple of spots like that, but I think/hope most of the deck is OK. I'd really rather not remove the lot. Small bits I can do a bit at a time. Start with the obvious bad bits, in fact I already have started. Then at some stage rip up all the teak, and seal up with epoxy and glass. The cabins and hatches all sit on top of the deck, which would make complete removal of the ply a really big job. Not planning to take her out of the water. About that rudder post fitting, try a small gear puller from an auto parts store. Gangly thing with three arms and a central screw.
    Last edited by Phil Y; 09-10-2018 at 02:55 AM.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Gentlemen, That rotten deck, that looks like a terminal case of wood cancer is exactly the reason I never use plywood for sub decking!!!!!!!!!!!
    Jay

  15. #50
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    At present I am assisting an owner who has a boat that suffered with a rotten sub deck that infected the sheer clamp and many frames. Had the boat been done right to begin with he would not be facing this mind boggling problem.

    It was Natanial Herreshoff that once said, "There are only three kinds of boat owners in the world; fools, damn fools and sons of lady dogs!"
    I don't know where I fall in line with that description? I own a famous H28 that has a rotten plywood sub deck, made of plywood, that was put in by a former owner! I know he is in line as well because he was the one who made the bad decision with the sub deck and I am in line too because I know I can fix it! But oh Gawd what an expense of time and money it will be!
    Jay

  16. #51
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Not sure whats going on, but in #44 i can only see links to the images, not the images themselves......
    Gypsie, it's the same for me and possibly for others as well. Could you try to set them up again? Now that direct posting of pics from the computer is possible I myself seem to manage since I clicked "export" for my pics in the program I'm using (Picasa) first, and then add the pics from that folder to the forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    Gentlemen, That rotten deck, that looks like a terminal case of wood cancer is exactly the reason I never use plywood for sub decking!!!!!!!!!!!
    Jay
    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    At present I am assisting an owner who has a boat that suffered with a rotten sub deck that infected the sheer clamp and many frames. Had the boat been done right to begin with he would not be facing this mind boggling problem.

    It was Natanial Herreshoff that once said, "There are only three kinds of boat owners in the world; fools, damn fools and sons of lady dogs!"
    I don't know where I fall in line with that description? I own a famous H28 that has a rotten plywood sub deck, made of plywood, that was put in by a former owner! I know he is in line as well because he was the one who made the bad decision with the sub deck and I am in line too because I know I can fix it! But oh Gawd what an expense of time and money it will be!
    Jay
    Jay, you are certainly right with what you're saying, but honestly, nothing lasts forever and encapsulated timber will rot as well the moment you add humidity and don't give it a chance to disappear - or in other words, a chance to get rid of the humidity and dry out in regular intervals. People's lives have changed over the last hundred years, and a lot of sailors expect their boats to be perfectly dry on the inside like they are used from their houses or apartments. A shower draining into the bilge is something utterly impossible today - if we forget the fact that ages ago people didn't have a shower on a boat (nor in a house), and if we forget the fact that nowadays with all the environmental regulations this is not possible any more. But lets spin this idea a bit further: where else could humidity, which found it's way into a TIMBER sub-deck, disappear to? It can't! The only thing I can think of is don't do a sub-deck at all but lay a properly planked deck instead. And install EVERYTHING only with bedding-compound (whatever you use) to not give humidity a chance to get in!!!

    And now we're instantly back to the problem any new-age-modern-owner is facing: how to properly maintain a planked deck? Apart from a lick of paint every now and again it needs caulking from time to time. Most people nowadays want maintenance-free boats. WE know, that this doesn't exist. But many don't! Try to sell a boat with a lovely planked deck and most people are not interested any more and run away because they think this goes far over their skills to maintain it. And we shouldn't forget that the timber we can buy today is - in most places in this world - definitely not of the same quality as it was only 50 years ago.

    Back to plywood-decks (I'm not talking of sub-decks as I've never dug into that). They do have a place if done with care, if the system itself is well thought about, if anything installed on it is properly bedded and any leakage sorted immediately the moment it appears, and if one tries his best to use the best plywood he can manage to get his hands on. As long as all these "if's" are taken care of, they can survive in good health for an amazing time.

    Tonga for example was launched in July 1960 and had a plywood deck consisting of several layers (the deck was never re-done). The bottom layer was 9 mm, must have been some very superior quality at the time, and had not a single spot that was damaged when I ripped it out. We're talking about 14.52 m of deck bow to stern (flushdecker with a tiny cabin-roof aft) and not a single problem after nearly 60 years. The consecutive layers on top were mostly toast: the glue between the layers of each sheet had just disappeared somehow, although they were bone-dry, mostly. But, I also had quite some spots where water had found it's way under a fitting, into a crack or a screw/bolt where the shaft was not properly bedded and there I found the exact mess of rotten ply Gypsie uncovered on his deck.

    Be all this as it may: my fasteners were giving up after nearly 60 years. Certainly humidity had a hand in it, but they were in a pretty poor state even where the ply was not rotten and not humid. My boat is mainly galvi-fastened, but I also found some copper-bolts and screws which were heavily de-zinked, and some bronze-screws in a very sorry state - although neither the copper-bolts, nor the bronze ones were in direct contact with any other metal as far as I could see in most places. Still a mystery to me. To get to the point: in my case my deck had to be replaced anyway, even if there was no damage at all, because of the fasteners! And the same thing will be true for a properly planked deck. When the fasteners are gone, there is nothing really to keep the deck where it's meant to be.

    Another big problem, which unfortunately will concern many other boats as well: they were using polyester-resin on my boat although epoxy was already available. Several layers of fibreglass with Polyester on top of my plywood-deck and 10 mm on top of the diagonal layer of ply under the waterline and 7 mm above. Trouble with polyester-resin is, that it doesn't get a good grip on any wood but just pops off it it likes to and gives heaps more chances to humidity to happily settle down nicely. Just a few days ago in preparation for the job on the hull I already took some of my skinfittings out, plop it made and suddenly there was a gap of 1.5 cm between the hull and the outer (polyester) skin.

    Timber is not rot-proof either when humidity gets in. Part of my toe-rail is toast because water managed to penetrate through 2 screwholes where the plug disappeared miraculously and I noticed too late.

    Meanwhile I've come to the conclusion it doesn't matter what you do, as long as you are super-vigilant to do whatever is in your powers to stop any ingress of water. Good materials, the best you can get your hands on, help tremendously to make any mishaps only a tiny matter, easy to fix.

    Sometimes there are things going on ... it makes me cringe to see someone nailing the cheapest plywood over a planked deck to stop his leaks without even painting the edges of the ply where it meets a cabin or something else. Sure, it will be perfectly ok for the moment, maybe even 2 or 3 years, maybe longer. And for sure it makes them happy to be back on the water and enjoy from their boat. Which is nice! But only a few bucks more and a tiny bit of extra effort could make this joy and pleasure last sooo much longer.

    No idea to which of the three mentioned by Herreshoff I belong to, but I'm pretty sure it's one of them or maybe all three 😊
    Last edited by Dody; 09-10-2018 at 07:48 PM.
    fair winds, Dody

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  17. #52
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    There is not a simple solution to this problems that occur with teak veneer laid over plywood or plywood decks that are covered with epoxy impregnated glass oar dynle fiber cloth. The problem lays within the plywood panels themselves and the way they are manufactured. One has to look into how plywood is made to fully understand why so many marine projects that are made from plywood end up turning into compost!

    Logs that are chosen for making this product are first immersed and soaked in water and or steamed to increase the water content and soften the logs in order to make them easier to cut into veneer. This process is begins by rotatery debarking the log followed by placing it against a knife that, essentially, unrolls the wood like a continuous window shade. This process takes one side of the veneer and either stretches it or compresses in depending which side of the log it is on. Often softening enzymes are impredgnated into the material to cause the fibers to relax. But the memory is still within the fiber structure of the wood itself and in many cases, the delamitation of plywood panels can be blamed on the process that unrolls the log.

    Many manufactures in Europe avoid the phenomenon of delamination by making plywood out of flat sawn flitches, a process that is very expensive and is only used for laminated wood products of the highest quality and those that are specifically made for special purposes.

    The joining of veneers into a panel of specific thickness involves coating both sides of the veneers and laying the thin panels first in one direction and then at ninety degrees to the surface of the wood beneith. It was once a practice to avoid laying flawed panels that contained splits, voids or knots in the cores of marine plywood. However it is now possible to find all manner of flaws and voids contained within cores of failed panels in todays marine grade ply. Once an entire panel is made up and the glue is damp, the sheet is sent through a hot press that essentially drys the glue and drives out excess moisture that is contained within the product. Then the wood is thouroughly inspected, dried and stacked and it is then packaged and sent off to market. Lumber yards like this product because it is easy to store in a stack and does not need to be culled over to obtain a better piece of strucural material.

    The one thing that is not taken into consideration by users of the product is that once it is placed into the structure of a boat, it is subjected to all manner of strains such as bending over deck beams if used for decking and it will also be subject to constant changes in humidity and swings in temperature.

    As the wood is heated by sunlight it is prone to expansion. By the same token, as it cools in the night or in winter it contacts. This is very much akin to the action of a diaphragm pump. And it drags moisture into the core of the panel in microscopic amounts. In additon, the presence of fungal spores can also be taken in which can cause the wood to develop a fatal fungal infection which is known as dry rot. In truth it is really wet rot!

    Most often one will hear or read that all surfaces of the plywood panals should be sealed in order to prevent the intrusion of moisture but, this is rarely the case as various piercings of the decks for mounting fittings or nailing down of veneer deck overlay strakes pierce the plywood in hundreds if not thousands of places making a virtual honeycomb labyrinth of water conduction voids into the panels. The chain plate openings are usually the worst places for this to occur as the hull and deck panels are in a state of constant loading and unloading in these places. As moisture enters the plywood panels, another phenominum occurs, the wood which is constantly stressed, twisted, heated and cooled also is attempting to return to its original shape prior to being unrolled from the log it came in with. These are the factors that lead to the failing of a wooden or wooden sub deck in a wooden boat. While there are many wise men in the advertising business that will tell you other wise, common sense and irrefutable evidence makes a strong argument to the contrary.

    So, in my humble opinion, based on more years of personal experience than I wish to commit to, plywood does not belong in a wooden boat as a sub deck, deck or other structural components if the boat is to last more than fifty years without requiring expensive restoration and repairs.

    And, I did not bother to mention that some persons are very allergic to the gassing of the glues and other chemicals that are used in the making of plywood which can cause all manner of respiratory distress, itching and other mind vexing ailments.

    I do hope this bit of information will be of use to some of you!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 09-10-2018 at 08:08 PM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Jay and Dody, I'm loving your insights. Please keep them coming.
    Jay - excellent account of the challenges with Ply. Very convincing. But a ply deck it will be - no disrespect meant, i thank you for that input, i can not claim i am doing this with my eyes shut.

    My plan, 18mm ply, cut, shaped, fixed into place with screws countersunk. Sheet removed, liberally soaked in CPES, painted white underneath and reinstalled. Seams filled with thickened epoxy, sanded smooth. If sanding removes CPES areas, resoak.
    Whole deck given at least one coat of epoxy directly before glassing.
    Glass to run up the sides of deck house and coaming, down the side of the hull an inch or two. (This is the part i see the greatest weak spot - epoxy/glass on a sheer strake that is not itself epoxied).
    All through deck fittings will have a 10mm pad similarly treated under them, and a pad on the underside of the deck - both glued in place with thickened epoxy. So the point of the fitting will be minimum 10mm + 18mm + 10mm, 38mm. All fittings bedded in Sikaflex.
    How tight to bolt on.... too tight and damage to the timber pads, not tight enough and the fasteners work themselves loose.

    Good two pack primer. Three or so coats till solid white.
    Non-skid top coats - creamy beige sand colour.
    Bulwarks bright? Probably not - white like the top sides.

    BTW - the side decks have no crown, they are sloped so the water runs off.
    Fore deck has minimal crown, not even a centimeter over the width from center line.
    The deck however does have rocker but gentle enough to manage even with 18mm ply.

    Reading Reuel Parker (coldmolded handbook) last night, looking for a section for the bulwark/deck/hull join - he is scathing about teak overlay. But for the through deck fittings, especially chain plates, he recommends gluing PVC tube into the holes and running the bolts through that. The glued edges of the holes, covered by the pvc tube will minimise water ingress. The tube supposedly would absorb some of the work on those spots...?

    I'll start popping the ply this weekend and we can have a look at how it is fastened down. I'm keen to find a good solution for the deck/hull join that will last.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Those previously missing pics are visible now. I have a couple of spots like that, but I think/hope most of the deck is OK. I'd really rather not remove the lot. Small bits I can do a bit at a time. Start with the obvious bad bits, in fact I already have started. Then at some stage rip up all the teak, and seal up with epoxy and glass. The cabins and hatches all sit on top of the deck, which would make complete removal of the ply a really big job. Not planning to take her out of the water. About that rudder post fitting, try a small gear puller from an auto parts store. Gangly thing with three arms and a central screw.
    Thanks mate - yep, a mate has a decent sized puller i'll have a got with this weekend. Three sided implement with a two sided object......
    He's also got a sand blaster - looking at powder-coating some fittings maybe, budget permitting.
    Dare i mention the possibility of blasting the hull back to wood........... decades of paint is beginning to fall off in thick chunks.

    An old boat that has been abandoned next to me was sand blasted back to bare wood not long ago. Cedar hull, and no obvious damage caused by the blasting that i can see.

    Attachment 22642

    Anyone recognise the boat type?
    The owner is going to knock off the ballast and hang it from the ceiling in his new house. As is.

    I'll have a go at steaming first as per someone else's advice on a different thread. I have a steamer that might do the job. But i'm sure it will be slow.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

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    One of those ancient kero blow torches is best. Primus.


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  21. #56
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    A counter suggestion to the PVC tubing for fitting mount points would be to look for phenolic tubing. It's readily available here in the States, but I don't know about down there. The embedded fibers make it much stronger and it bonds really well with the epoxies you'll be using on the deck. A little more expensive, but much stronger and more secure. I used it throughout when I redid the cabintop and deck of my boat (balsa cored GRP) and have zero moisture around them. Wish I could say the same for the hull! Watch your source, though...some are linen reinforced (good) and some are just phenolic soaked kraft paper (not so good).

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    A few notes here that may be worth investigation on your part with that new deck. I do feel that you would be adding insurance to the job if the plywood decks are covered with Dynel cloth set in epoxy resin rather than the two part paint that is mentioned. Plywood has a disarming tendency to check as time passes and my intuition tells me that the fabric over it is a safer way to go. In additon, some boats have synthetic cork panels laid down on areas of heavy traffic that aid in providing traction for those times that the boat is charging on in heavy weather and the crew is involved with fisting a sail change or reefing the main. This paneling often has diamond shaped cross hatching and is quite handsome cosmetically and is also easily replaced when worn.

    Also, I have been investigating a new paint removal blasting process that seems to offer advantages over the traditional sand blasting method. This process uses dry ice granules. These pellets do a cleaner job than sand and the ice evaporates as a gas leaving only the fine paint dust to be removed by vacuum or brush. It is non toxic and fully approved by the EPA here in the States. In addition it affords less errosion of the wood under the paint and leaves it, basically, pristine, smooth and needing only a light sanding to make it ready for resin or paint coating.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry-ice_blasting

    As to sealing the areas where chain plates pierce the deck I feel I should mention that, on a boat that uses non laminated wood for covering boards, the void around the metal strapping is most often filled with wooden wedges that are of a softer wood, such as cedar, than the covering board itself. These are normally set in a sealant such as G/flex epoxy as it has a flex factor that allows it to remain attached to both the metal and covering board under shock loading. It may be advantages for you to thoroughly impregnate the plywood that surrounds the straps and use cedar wedges set in G/flex as well. This is something that I have not seen done but I feel is might be a consideration to keep in mind.

    I am very aware of how much labor and expense you are dealing with! I wish you good fortune and God's speed with your project.
    Jay aka Bird
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 09-11-2018 at 12:23 PM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Glass is stronger than dynel. 12mm ply, glassed, will be perfect for the deck and you'll have no trouble bending that to a Seabird deck. A properly sheathed ply deck will last indefinitely and certainly much longer than a planked deck! Don't use WRC anywhere outside - it's too soft, holds moisture and rots too easily. For your edges, rails etc., I'd definitely use PNG rosewood which you can get from Anagote at Marrickville. Use the best plywood you can get. It might be worth talking to Andrew Denman at Denman Marine about that. You must ensure that every fastening that penetrates the glass is embedded in epoxy. The Gougeon Bros manual describes this well. There are good ways to waterproof chainplates and problematic deck fittings so let me know if you want any ideas on that.

    For ideas on doghouses, see if you can find pictures of Pagan, Ronita, Joy Too and also Fare Thee Well (not a Seabird but a Payne design). The Tasman Seabird is also included in the booklet of Australian Wooden Boats still available from the NSW Wooden Boat Association. Lovely boat. I nearly bought Joy Too but the broker wouldn't accept my offer.

    Rick

  24. #59
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Soda blasting is a good alternative to sandblasting.

    Rick

  25. #60
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Thanks guys.

    That phenolic tubing is an idea. Its like a paper tube that must absorb the epoxy and effectively become part of the structure. I'll look into it.
    Jay - i will be sheathing the deck in glass.
    I plan to have all the fasteners holding the deck down to be under the glass.
    Only through deck fittings will penetrate. i have been wondering about that shock absorbtion at the chain plates, and just the pressure on the inboard side of the base. Your post has given me food for thought Jay. Soft pad. A mate is putting 3mm rubber pads, gooped each side, under his - on a steel boat. But possibly too much movement. Something soft - easily planed off in 5 years. Possibly needing occasional tightening up for the first 6 months until bedded. The whole torque on the chain plate bolts has me a bit on edge - it is the area of most rot on the deck as it comes up. Clearly a lot of working on those areas.

    12mm, that sounds thin to me. But only because i haven't been contemplating anything that thin.
    Some deck fittings don't go through beams. The windlass for example, two forward bolts through beams, aft 2 through the deck (which i can back support from underneath. I will sit the windlass on a pad of 10mm ply - or if i can reuse the teak it was sitting on, i might try. i'll contemplate that a bit more Rick - thanks.
    PNG rosewood, it never dawned on me to use something like that. Surely that would insist on having itself finished bright? I'm not sure if i'm up for a big personality onboard.
    I've emailed Anagote about rosewood and ply, and Andrew at Denman Marine.

    IMG_5123.jpg
    There's the pad the windlass did sit on. I'm hoping it will come up easily, run it through the thicknesser to clean it up and finish bright.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Bruynzeel have hardwood marine ply, 18mm, for $157.
    They also have 15mm - meet you half way Rick?

    It is not going to take that much ply.
    I initially thought 10 sheets. Then thought about it a little, and estimated 8.
    Deck is 11m long. thats fewer than 4 sheets length. but the only 'expanses' are the bow (which appears to be a single sheet?) and the stern. everything else is max 400mm wide - and curved of course.
    I'd nearly wager on 6 sheets.

    I'm not sure i mentioned, it looks like the coaming is okay. Just a sliver where the deck joined, but below that it seems fine.
    Also a spot where water ran off the cabin top consistently, over a putty filled gap. The putty is crumbling and under it the ply is rotted. I think easily cut out and filled.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    15mm will be fine. Back everything strongly whether it's through 12, 15, 18 mm - whatever. Any movement will crush edges and allow moisture to penetrate. Don't set your chainplates up to move at all. Fix them solidly. Put a chamfer/bevelled edge on the hole through the deck. Make up a little cover plate to go over the chainplates snugly. Make these from Tufnol or layered glass - Tufnol is my preference. Bevel the lower edge of the hole in these. Then put the cover plates on with screws and Sikaflex. The Sika will form an o-ring where you've bevelled the edged of the holes. Mastic is an alternative to Sika.

    No problem painting rosewood. It's not a particularly attractive wood IMHO. Its main advantages are its durability and it takes glue, glass and paint well. It can be left bright, of course. Vitex is another good option.

    I've spent today repairing rot damage - WRC used as edging on a cabin top.

    The most vulnerable bits on a plywood, or any, deck, are where you have fittings that move and especially where water can pool. So chainplates and stanchions are real hotspots. I like to make up little bases for stanchions etc., usually from Tufnol. I glue these to the deck. Then I put Sika or mastic under the stanchion foot so, the stanchion moves but the base doesn't and the water doesn't pool on top of the base. So no water seeps into the plywood.

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 09-12-2018 at 03:33 AM.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Do half-lap joins where you join the ply sheets. Make these about 50mm wide.

    Form shallow trenches to bury overlapping joins in the glass. That way you get strong glass seams and a smooth deck.

    That's about all I can add. Good luck!

    Rick

  29. #64
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    That's all great information Rick. I'm about 80% leaning towards making my chain plates external when I fix the deck.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Masina's chainplates are really solid, two-part things. Only the bolts joining the parts go through the deck and the upper section covers the holes well. I reckon it's the best arrangement I've seen on any boat. The most important thing is what the plates are fastened to, I think.

    Rick

  31. #66
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    That's a good option too. Mine are just straight bar, sitting inside the ribs, bolted through the topsides, and protruding through the deck, an inch or so inside the toe rail, which is to say a nice little water trap.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    I think external plates would suit Balia. They look wrong on many boats but just right on some.

    Rick

  33. #68
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Beautiful boat, good luck with her. I expect all of your hard work to be rewarded. I've owned three boats with glass on ply decks, all remained solid and dry for 50 years or longer.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    That's what I like to hear.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    G, two layers, well laminated together with epoxy are well more that twice as strong, and this boat will benefit from a stiff structural deck to help resolve the considerable racking and twisting forces she will experience when you get her back to work again.
    When we do this job, we use an air stapler and SS staples ( I no longer can source bronze staples...) to accomplish the lamination quickly, then we fasten conventionally to the deck beams after our glue is cured, to help keep our new deck fair. Of course, do prep and paint the underside of your first lam, so easy to do out on sawhorses, so miserable after its in the boat...
    Just one man's opinion...
    I agree with Jay, that any plywood used externally, should be glass( or Dynel ) and epoxy coated, the failure mode of plywood in the weather are the small micro checks that develop, and let the water do its worst... Cheers, Steve

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