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Thread: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

  1. #106
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Interesting.
    I was struck by one description that seemed to say you scrape off after blasting, which would mean it only loosens it up.

    I think I'll go with the 'Peter G' product for the antifoul, and heat for the topsides.
    Philip K. Dick — 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

  2. #107
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Spotted this in wikipedia;



    Interesting.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol
    Gypsie, I bought a 20l drum of the stuff, but the more I've read the less confident I am that it works on its own. Mix some borax in and use the mixture. The borax definitely works, and the ethylene glycol takes it into the damp wood. If the EG does work on its own, you've got a belt plus suspenders.

    Regards,
    John.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Thanks Aquinian, I don't think i'm going to rely on it for anything.
    I might paint some onto the beams cause it won't hurt, but i'll be cutting out rot and sealing everything properly (whatever properly means ).
    Philip K. Dick — 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

  4. #109
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    The boat was designed to have a rigid deck, glued to the beams. This is what it needs. The sheathing needs to keep moisture out of the plywood. You should certainly glue the ply deck to the beams and run the sheathing over the edges.

    Rick

  5. #110
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    The boat was designed to have a rigid deck, glued to the beams. This is what it needs. The sheathing needs to keep moisture out of the plywood. You should certainly glue the ply deck to the beams and run the sheathing over the edges.

    Rick
    Thanks Rick - what about gluing to the sheer strake? - i imagine as an extension of that whole system, it does call for gluing.
    T
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  6. #111
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquinian View Post
    Gypsie, I bought a 20l drum of the stuff, but the more I've read the less confident I am that it works on its own. Mix some borax in and use the mixture. The borax definitely works, and the ethylene glycol takes it into the damp wood. If the EG does work on its own, you've got a belt plus suspenders.

    Regards,
    John.
    Where did you get 20 litres from? I meed some for my hydronic heating system, and of course car parts places only sell it in 5 litres or smaller.

  7. #112
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Thanks Rick - what about gluing to the sheer strake? - i imagine as an extension of that whole system, it does call for gluing.
    T
    That, I'm not sure of but yes, I'd be inclined to do it. If there's hard, blackish stuff along the top of the sheer plank, which there probably is, then that's a clear sign that it was glued to the deck and intended to be so. If not, I'd glue it anyway as that joint needs to be tight, you don't want tooooo many screws running into that plank and you certainly don't want screws tearing out through movement.

    Rick

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Where did you get 20 litres from? I meed some for my hydronic heating system, and of course car parts places only sell it in 5 litres or smaller.
    I can’t remember, it was an industrial chemical supplier in Perth somewhere that I found using Google.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    That, I'm not sure of but yes, I'd be inclined to do it. If there's hard, blackish stuff along the top of the sheer plank, which there probably is, then that's a clear sign that it was glued to the deck and intended to be so. If not, I'd glue it anyway as that joint needs to be tight, you don't want tooooo many screws running into that plank and you certainly don't want screws tearing out through movement.

    Rick
    What would you use as glue, Rick? Sika 291i is a marine adhesive and sealant. There is probably heaps of others I haven't even heard the names of.
    fair winds, Dody

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  10. #115
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    i would use epoxy because I trust it. But there are various other adhesives that work well, of course. I use Sika sealant but I've never used any Sika products as a true adhesive. I reckon they make great products so if they have a strong adhesive, I can't see why that wouldn't work well. I like epoxy as it's not only strong but also fills gaps so I think it's particularly good for use where you're gluing old surfaces that have been damaged. As long as you remove anything that isn't wood, it'll glue really well.

    The only other adhesive I use a lot is polyurethane but it's really only good for gluing good surfaces, closely aligned. It's particularly good if timber is a bit green or even wet and it's more convenient than epoxy as you don't have to mix it. But I wouldn't use it to glue new ply to old beams unless I was really sure of excellent surface contact. Epoxy or another good, gap-filling glue.

    Rick

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Just some reassurance on plywood decks Wee Barkie’s has a raised flush deck using 12 mm ply that’s 42 years old fibreglassed and painted with two part epoxy.
    Granted the plywood used was of what I consider a very high standard, butt joints where sealed with roofing tar ,while most of the deck was copper nailed with 30 mm nails into the bare spotted gum beams.
    I like the idea of nails since when carefully flush nailed they tend to be far more moisture resistant than a much larger countersunk screw. Nailing your foredeck may be another option ,pre drilling your beams with a small bit since it’s no doubt seasoned hard wood.

    Recent restoration experience with a very neglected water damaged Hoop Plywood boat has also reinforced my belief in using such a premium ply if financialy possible .

  12. #117
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Interesting, the deck was nailed down across the beams, but screwed to the sheer. I've screwed it liberally, every 100mm (4")
    I mentioned it to David Payne, the designers nephew, also a designer of wooden boats, and he concurs - epoxy and heaps of screws.

    The ply i'm using is Bruynzeel marine, its high quality.
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  13. #118
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    Default

    Short rant about marine ply. Done.


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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Ran the belt sander across the beams and onto the sheer to tidy up, get rid of loose stuff and make sure i have a good clean landing for the ply surface.

    Couple of repairs. Some tear out at the sheer where the glued surfaces didn't part. And cut some rot out of the sheer strake at the stem.
    Pretty simple approach. Got the surface as clean and flat as possible without over doing it. Glued in an oversized piece of timber with thicked epoxy (both surfaces painted with unthicked first). Once hard, use the belt sander to wipe away material and sculpt until good.

    IMG_5195.jpg

    IMG_5194.jpg

    First board up, exactly half a sheet.

    IMG_5178.jpg

    Scribed the hull underneath and drew it with an additional 10mm over sized to allow for the continued flare of the bow.

    IMG_5179.jpg

    Stitched it back down to scribe the interior beams.

    IMG_5180.jpg

    This is unnecessary double handling. From now on I'll lay out for scribing, and do everything in one hit including the interior. Then take it off, cut, seal with CPES, undercoat the exposed underisde parts and then fit permanently.
    Last edited by gypsie; 10-09-2018 at 11:11 PM.
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  15. #120
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Second sheet up for sizing.
    This is 2200mm across, most of a sheet and probably the biggest single sheet on the boat.

    IMG_5181.jpg

    I did all the unnecessary double handling of this one too. Lifting a sheet that large up and down is no laughing matter.
    The beams are roughly on 1ft centers, so the 4ft dimensions of the boards works really well. It also means no laps as someone suggested. if i did lap them i'd have to waste a lot of material cutting the boards short to land nicely on beams. But i'm not worried about it at all. The beams are wide and strong, i think spotted gum. The sheets are sealed with a couple of layers of CPES, the egdes further sealed with unthickened epoxy and when the next sheet is butted up i've painted on thickened epoxy into the join. using the factory edges also gives me a bloody tight butt join.

    Here it is cut and ready for the underside to be scribed.

    IMG_5183.jpg

    All holes for screws pre-drilled from the underside so the holes land perfectly on the beams and Sheer. Here I'm using the angle gauge to make sure my holes match the angle of the sheer and go down the barrel - so to speak.

    IMG_5187.jpg

    All holes are slightly countersunk underneath, to give epoxy a place to nuzzle up to the screw and seal it. And countersunk proper above.

    IMG_5190.jpg

    Then primed underside for inetrior painting. Also here are two boards form the chain locker that prevent the chain from laying directly on the hull planking - allowing air to circulate through the locker.

    IMG_5193.jpg
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    Angry Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

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  17. #122
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    First one locked in.
    Unthickened epoxy on all mating surfaces. Then thickened up and painted on the beams and sheer.
    Then screws every 100mm (4").

    IMG_5196.jpg

    This is on tight! Bloody tight.
    I truely pity the person who ever has to replace this deck. But i feel confident i'm doing it well, so it'll be a long while. I have great hopes this deck will outlive me.
    I've marked the beams above for reference. I still have to figure out the deck layout - windlass and cleats etc...
    The primary holes for the stanchion feet were marked and drilled out on the ground and line up nicely.

    Then the second sheet on.

    IMG_5197.jpg

    Not far off 200 screws in there.
    The ply has landed beautifully, getting a really nice seal with the beams.
    Now that it is hardened it feels stiff and strong. I'm happy with the result.

    IMG_5198.jpg

    I maybe should have tried harder to align the orientation of the screws square drive holes. nobody will see them - but I'll know!
    Last edited by gypsie; 10-09-2018 at 11:13 PM.
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  18. #123
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Next sheet is on the side deck.

    for reference;

    IMG_5152.jpg

    I'm wondering how to approach this. The area is probably less than half a sheet. at its widest it is under 600mm.
    If i cut the section out whole it will use most of a sheet, because of the curve.
    If i cut it into 2 length wise sections. With the butt join between them running perpendicular to the beams. I will use less material - BUT - i have a join down the center that will have to be backed. Don't know if that makes sense.

    Then there's this stuff. Not sure what it is.
    Looks like the white is epoxy that ran off the cabin. But the red is grainy - possibly epoxy thickened with something i don't know of. But it strikes me as perhaps a building matieral of some kind. The idea of not finisheing the ply hard against the verticals and allowing a space to flow something that hardens into that corner is attractive. Joins like that are problem spots for leaks.
    This stuff i have to cut out as it is sandwiching some of the old deck down. I ordered a saw blade for an angle grinder - wondering if i can get close in to rip it out with that.

    IMG_5200.jpg

    Looking aft at work completed so far.

    IMG_5199.jpg
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  19. #124
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    I think everything you've done looks really good. If your butts are lying along the beams so that you can fasten each sheet to the beam then, as you guessed, there's no real need to lap the joins. The overlapping joins, which ought to be 30-40mm are really important where you have joins across open space or across (as opposed to along) the beams. So that's what you ought to do down the centre. No need to back the join. It's overlapping, across beams and will be sheathed - very strong.

    I don't know what that red filler is. But your sheathing needs to extend well up onto the coaming and cabinsides anyway - by at least 25mm and must be well bonded to the vertical surfaces. So, apart from tidying it all up to fit the new ply, I wouldn't worry too much about removing the red stuff.

    Rick

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    By the way, what are those extra caps/holes on your dorade boxes for?

    Rick

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post



    Then there's this stuff. Not sure what it is.
    Looks like the white is epoxy that ran off the cabin. But the red is grainy - possibly epoxy thickened with something i don't know of. But it strikes me as perhaps a building matieral of some kind. The idea of not finisheing the ply hard against the verticals and allowing a space to flow something that hardens into that corner is attractive. Joins like that are problem spots for leaks.
    This stuff i have to cut out as it is sandwiching some of the old deck down. I ordered a saw blade for an angle grinder - wondering if i can get close in to rip it out with that.

    IMG_5200.jpg
    The red stuff looks like West System low density fairing powder.

    Where your deck joins the cabin sides, with the amount of work that you are doing I wonder why you wouldn’t lift the cabin and run the deck under the cabin sides.....just a thought
    Larks

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  22. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    By the way, what are those extra caps/holes on your dorade boxes for?

    Rick


    You can move the vent to directly over the penetration so the air goes straight in by swapping the cap. Quite neat.


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  23. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    The red stuff looks like West System low density fairing powder.

    Where your deck joins the cabin sides, with the amount of work that you are doing I wonder why you wouldn’t lift the cabin and run the deck under the cabin sides.....just a thought


    I will take a pick. The cabin sides run down into the boat to a shelf attached to the underside of the beams. It would be a big job to lift it off.
    The cabin ply is in good nick. The exposed parts show a beautiful looking A grade hardwood surface, I assume implies good quality marine ply.


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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I will take a pick. The cabin sides run down into the boat to a shelf attached to the underside of the beams. It would be a big job to lift it off.
    The cabin ply is in good nick. The exposed parts show a beautiful looking A grade hardwood surface, I assume implies good quality marine ply.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I see (said the blind man) and my apologies, it looked in the pic like the cut edge of some ply under the cabin sides, more so on that front corner in the photo, which’d be similar to how my H28 was built, with the cabin sides over the deck ply and through bolted to the carlins below. But of course stick with how she was built.
    Larks

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  25. #130

    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    First one locked in.

    Then the second sheet on.

    IMG_5197.jpg




    The ply has landed beautifully, getting a really nice seal with the beams.
    !
    Landing the plywood joins on the beams is poor practice. It will always be an area subject to cracking. Either butt join between the beams (8;1) or learn how to scarf. Just say'n.

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanda View Post
    Landing the plywood joins on the beams is poor practice. It will always be an area subject to cracking. Either butt join between the beams (8;1) or learn how to scarf. Just say'n.
    Gotta agree on the scarf joint being your best option and not to join over the deck beams, seems counterintuitive if you are used to building houses.
    Larks

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  27. #132
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanda View Post
    Landing the plywood joins on the beams is poor practice. It will always be an area subject to cracking. Either butt join between the beams (8;1) or learn how to scarf. Just say'n.
    Strange, I've never heard of not to join the panels on the deckbeams, and I've even seen professional shipwrights doing it this way. It's the same with planking. Preferably one would join planks at the frames. Butt joins in planking are only second best option if a plank in the length needed is completely unavailable.
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    I will take a pick. The cabin sides run down into the boat to a shelf attached to the underside of the beams. It would be a big job to lift it off.
    The cabin ply is in good nick. The exposed parts show a beautiful looking A grade hardwood surface, I assume implies good quality marine ply.
    A picture would help. Without a pic I would assume it is built in similar fashion as Lark's H28: a carlin connected to the deckbeams running all along the opening, the deck was laid on top of it all the way to the opening, then the inner cabin sides bolted to this carlin and the cabin built up on this.
    fair winds, Dody

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanda View Post
    Landing the plywood joins on the beams is poor practice. It will always be an area subject to cracking. Either butt join between the beams (8;1) or learn how to scarf. Just say'n.
    Thanks Balanda, but too late now.
    (If the choice is 'butt join' or 'learn to scarf', then i'm probably good as i already know how to scarf )

    If it cracks at the beams I'll eat my hat. I'm getting 3cm landing for each sheet at the join, well primed, epoxy primed, thicked epoxy and screws every 100mm, and thats all the way round each panel and across every beam.A local ship wright dropped by to have a look yesterday and he was very positive about progress.

    its odd, with the exception of a sinle butt join beside the forward face of the cabin, i can't spot another join in the ply anywhere on the deck. Not a scarf nor butt. Its like they had it CNC'd out of a massive sheet, or, the ply layers were laid in situ.
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  30. #135
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Good progress. And an inkling of what lies ahead of me. My cabins and hatch coamings sit on top of my deck, but being a lazy incompetent sod Im loath to consider removing them. Should be easy enough, take the nuts off the bolts that hold them down, pry them up and put them aside. I can see splintered wood and bent and broken bolts and no way on Gods earth to get them back on and secure once the deck is done. Maybe I'm just a pessimist at heart.

  31. #136
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Phil, yes, you're a pessimist.

    Grab a multitool if you don't have one. Everything you are afraid of will go away with the judicious use of this fabled product. Have plenty of new blades ready.

    Cheers,
    John (another lazy incompetent)

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Quote Originally Posted by Balanda View Post
    Landing the plywood joins on the beams is poor practice. It will always be an area subject to cracking.
    I've been reflecting on this because it struck me as counter intuitive.
    But i think i can see it.
    The join, one way or another, is weaker than the surround ply. if it is 'floating' between beams it gets a chance to flex, but fixed on a beam it is a hard spot - which when stressed can only do one thing; crack.

    But as i say, too late now.
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Its going nowhere Gypsy. Once you glass it all up it will outlive you and I.
    10 points for tackling this job

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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    Thanks Geftb, it is daunting if i think about it too much. But i feel good for having taken it on.
    Now that the boat is out of the water i dream of all the things i could do. But money, time - and really wanting to use the boat, are pressuring me back in as soon as i can. I still hope to get big ticket items done so i don't have to take her out of her natural element for a long period again in the foreseeable future.

    interestingly, no seams have opened up in her. But it has been raining since she came out.
    There is some water in the bilge as my tarps fail occasionally, and some line of damp along planks outside in that rea could be seen. but no drips or seams.
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    Default Re: 1962 Tasman Seabird - New Deck

    I'm in much the same boat. (Pardon the pun) every second guy in the boat yard has an opinion on what I should or should not do I'm doing to much, not doing enough... I'm sure there all well meaning... but I'm thinking the same as you. Once its in I don't want to have to pull it out again to do the things I know I want to do. I don't have the drying out issues you face being ferro.

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