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Thread: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

  1. #176
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    Pot, kettle, black



    Ducking, diving, bobbing and weaving

    .
    Not at all, more like Quoting, referencing and cross-referencing

    The facts are right there for all to see. The UNWRA is tasked with establishing whatever administrative organization may be required for the purpose of aiding refugees, combatants cannot be refugees and it is a violation of the UN the UNWRA the ICRC and the Geneva Conventions for them to aid combatants.

    Yet to this day they have knowingly both aided combatants and failed in their duty to establish the administrative organization required to ensure the neutral character of asylum. IE refugee status.

    It's spelled out in black and white, you just can't admit it

    So again
    Nonsense, at this point I've quoted dozens of times clear and unequivocal elements of each charter and guiding principals of the agencies IN CHARGE that clearly state exactly that.

    The UN for instance. First article, first sentence.




    1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;



    Or the founding resolution of the UNWRA Res-212

    8. REQUESTS the Secretary-General to take all necessary steps to extend aid to Palestine refugees and to establish such administrative organization as may be required for this purpose, inviting the assistance of the appropriate agencies of the several Governments, the specialized agencies of the United Nations, the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the League of Red Cross Societies and other voluntary agencies it being recognized that the participation of voluntary organizations in the relief plan would in no way derogate from the principle of impartiality on the basis of which the assistance of these organizations is being solicited;

    And since you obviously havne't read up on it; the agreement between Israel and the UNWRA, which does NOT include Israel being in "charge" of the camps. That deal is between Israel and the PA.

    From
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpol...0refugees.aspx


    For its part, the Israel Government will facilitate the task of UNRWA to the best of its ability, subject only to regulations or arrangements which may be necessitated by considerations of military security. On this understanding, we are prepared to agree in principle:
    (a) To ensure the protection and security of the personnel, installations and property of UNRWA;
    (b) To permit the free movement of UNRWA vehicles into, within and out of Israel and the areas in question;
    (c) To permit the international staff of the Agency to move in, out and within Israel and the areas in question; they will be provided with identity documents and any other passes which might be required;
    (d) To permit the local staff of the Agency to move within the areas in question under arrangements made or to be made with the military authorities;
    (e) To provide radio, telecommunications and landing facilities;
    (f) Pending a further supplementary agreement, to maintain the previously existing financial arrangements with the governmental authorities then responsible for the areas in question, concerning:
    (i) Exemptions from customs duties, taxes and charges on importation of supplies, goods and equipment;
    (ii) provision free of charge of warehousing, labour for offloading and handling, and transport by rail or road in the areas under our control;
    (iii) such other costs to the Agency as were previously met by the governmental authorities concerned.

    (g) To recognize that the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations of 13 February 1946,1to which Israel is a party, shall govern the relations between the Government and UNRWA in all that concerns UNRWA’s functions.

    can't get much clearer than that Isla
    You just can't handle it. Israel will inevitably end up doing the dirty work, but it's the UNWRA that's ultimately responsible for aiding ONLY legitimate refugees.

  2. #177
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Lordy lord, not only bobbing and weaving, but forgetting what you have posted previously. And you keep posting Ref-212 par.8, is that weird or what?

    You posted the link to http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpol...0refugees.aspx back in #153

    I pointed out that it contained..
    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    For its part, the Israel Government will facilitate the task of UNRWA to the best of its ability, subject only to regulations or arrangements which may be necessitated by considerations of military security.
    On this understanding, we are prepared to agree in principle:
    (a) To ensure the protection and security of the personnel, installations and property of UNRWA;

    Sounds like Israel is accepting full responsibility for policing and security in UNRWA installations and property, and not expecting UNRWA to do it.
    To which you replied..
    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    No LMAO your miles behind the times. Israel WAS responsible for ensuring the UNWRAs safety and security in Israel only, Not the safety and security of the camps themselves, read it a few times if you have too ;-) But gave up that burden to the PA in the OSLO 2 accords annex 1, 2 and a whole slew of others.
    So you posted a reference to support your claim which you then said is irrelevant. Now you post it again. Nice work.

    I'm fully aware that the PA Police have been responsible for security and policing in the West Bank since Oslo, and you have even posted evidence to that effect yourself..

    In #155 you posted..

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    ARTICLE II
    Security Policy for the Prevention of Terrorism and Violence

    The Palestinian security policy as defined by the Palestinian Authority on March 9, 1995, for the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area will also be implemented in the rest of the West Bank in areas which come under Palestinian security responsibility as follows:
    The Palestinian Police is the only Palestinian security authority.
    The Palestinian Police will act systematically against all expressions of violence and terror.
    The Council will issue permits in order to legalize the possession and carrying of arms by civilians. Any illegal arms will be confiscated by the Palestinian Police.
    The Palestinian Police will arrest and prosecute individuals who are suspected of perpetrating acts of violence and terror.
    So keep digging for something tangible that says UNRWA has that responsibility.
    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

  3. #178
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    A desperate attempt to find flaw where none exists in order to distract from the obvious.

    The facts are right there for all to see. All the kicking and complaining in the world won't change it. The UNWRA is tasked with establishing whatever administrative organization may be required for the purpose of aiding refugees, combatants cannot be refugees and it is a violation of the UN the UNWRA the ICRC and the Geneva Conventions for them to aid combatants. You are arguing that conducting an illegal aid campaign which ignores the neutrality of asylum is perfectly OK. I call BS.

    To this day the UNWRA has knowingly both aided combatants and failed in their duty to establish the administrative organization required to ensure the neutral character of asylum. IE refugee status.

    It's spelled out in black and white, you just can't admit it

    So again
    Nonsense, at this point I've quoted dozens of times clear and unequivocal elements of each charter and guiding principals of the agencies IN CHARGE that clearly state exactly that.

    The UN for instance. First article, first sentence.





    1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;




    Or the founding resolution of the UNWRA Res-212

    8. REQUESTS the Secretary-General to take all necessary steps to extend aid to Palestine refugees and to establish such administrative organization as may be required for this purpose, inviting the assistance of the appropriate agencies of the several Governments, the specialized agencies of the United Nations, the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the League of Red Cross Societies and other voluntary agencies it being recognized that the participation of voluntary organizations in the relief plan would in no way derogate from the principle of impartiality on the basis of which the assistance of these organizations is being solicited;

    And since you obviously havne't read up on it; the agreement between Israel and the UNWRA, which does NOT include Israel being in "charge" of the camps. That deal is between Israel and the PA.

    From
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpol...0refugees.aspx


    For its part, the Israel Government will facilitate the task of UNRWA to the best of its ability, subject only to regulations or arrangements which may be necessitated by considerations of military security. On this understanding, we are prepared to agree in principle:
    (a) To ensure the protection and security of the personnel, installations and property of UNRWA;
    (b) To permit the free movement of UNRWA vehicles into, within and out of Israel and the areas in question;
    (c) To permit the international staff of the Agency to move in, out and within Israel and the areas in question; they will be provided with identity documents and any other passes which might be required;
    (d) To permit the local staff of the Agency to move within the areas in question under arrangements made or to be made with the military authorities;
    (e) To provide radio, telecommunications and landing facilities;
    (f) Pending a further supplementary agreement, to maintain the previously existing financial arrangements with the governmental authorities then responsible for the areas in question, concerning:
    (i) Exemptions from customs duties, taxes and charges on importation of supplies, goods and equipment;
    (ii) provision free of charge of warehousing, labour for offloading and handling, and transport by rail or road in the areas under our control;
    (iii) such other costs to the Agency as were previously met by the governmental authorities concerned.

    (g) To recognize that the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations of 13 February 1946,1to which Israel is a party, shall govern the relations between the Government and UNRWA in all that concerns UNRWA’s functions.

    can't get much clearer than that Isla
    You just can't handle it. Israel will inevitably end up doing the dirty work, but it's the UNWRA that's ultimately responsible for aiding ONLY legitimate refugees.
    Last edited by Boston; 09-12-2018 at 11:57 AM.

  4. #179
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    ^
    It looks to me like your MO for these discussions is to keep on copying and pasting vast screeds of text from previous posts in the hope that your opponent will get bored with questioning the same references over and over, and will eventually give up and go away. Victory by virtue of boring your opponent to death

    So which part of the MFA letters do you believe supports your claim that UNRWA is responsible for security and policing? You say it can't get much clearer, so help me out here.
    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

  5. #180
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    My MO is to show everyone the relevant text, and then let them see you claim it doesn't say what's right there in black and white.

    The statement is simple and clear and you've done backflips to deny it

    That's my MO

    ;-)

    You can't win this one, your arguing that it's perfectly legal within the UN charter, the UNWRA charter, the ICRC charter and the Geneva Conventions for a neutral third party lending aid to refugees to aid combatants as well. I call BS

    You just can't handle being wrong.

  6. #181
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    My MO is to show everyone the relevant text, and then let them see you claim it doesn't say what's right there in black and white.

    The statement is simple and clear and you've done backflips to deny it.
    That's fine. I'm sure anybody with half a brain cell who reads the quote from Res-212 will understand that it was written in the context of forming an emergency relief programme for Palestine (UNRPR) and cannot in any way be translated as a direction to UNRWA, which was not created until a year later, and not operational until 1950.

    Mindful of its role in the Palestine problem, the UN General Assembly first addressed the critical humanitarian situation of the refugees. It established the UN Relief for Palestine Refugees (UNRPR) through Resolution 212 (III) dated 19 November 1948 to provide emergency relief to Palestine refugees, in coordination with other UN, multilateral and voluntary agencies.
    https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/UNISP...d?OpenDocument

    The General Assembly adopted, in November 1948, its first resolution on providing assistance to Palestine refugees. In response to a report by acting mediator Ralph Bunche that “the situation of the refugees is now critical”, it established the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees (UNRPR). During its brief existence, UNRPR channelled emergency assistance to refugees from Palestine through international voluntary agencies.
    http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch10.pdf

    Creation of UNRWA, 1949
    As hopes for the immediate return of refugees to their homes faded, the General Assembly made more lasting arrangements.
    In December 1949, it established the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) to succeed UNRPR and to carry out refugee-related activities in collaboration with local governments.
    In May 1950, UNRWA, from its then headquarters in Beirut, took over operations put together by international voluntary agencies. In the first few years of its work, UNRWA concentrated on providing immediate relief in the form of food, shelter and clothing.
    http://www.un.org/Depts/dpi/palestine/ch10.pdf

    It looks like you are unable to produce any credible evidence for your claim, that UNRWA is responsible for separating combatants from refugees, and for security and policing. Never mind, I'll keep posting new evidence which is relevant to security and policing in the West Bank and other UNRWA locations.
    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

  7. #182
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Just a bit of background info. Anybody familiar with Middle East affairs will know that, after the Oslo Accords of 1994, the Palestine West Bank was divided into three sections, designated A,B and C.

    Area A is the space in which the PA has political and military jurisdiction over its residents – all of whom are Arab.
    This includes all of the major towns and their immediate environs – with the partial exception of Jewish Hebron, which came under exclusive Israeli control in the 1997 Hebron protocol between Israel and the PLO. This area comprises approximately 18 percent of Judea and Samaria’s land mass.

    In Area B, Israel and the PA share jurisdiction.
    Israel enjoys exclusive jurisdiction over the Jewish inhabitants and exclusive authority over security for both its Arab and Jewish inhabitants. The PA has political, administrative and police jurisdiction over the Arab inhabitants. They are subject to its laws, pay the necessary taxes and benefit from the same public services the PA provides in Area A.
    Strictly speaking, only the IDF and the Israel Police can make arrests in these areas.

    Israel has full jurisdiction over Area C.

    https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Knowing-your-ABC-448963
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  8. #183
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Am’ari camp

    In accordance with the Oslo Accords, Am’ari camp is located in Area A and is thus under the control of the Palestinian Authority. However, incursions and detentions of residents by Israeli security forces (ISF) occur on a frequent basis.

    https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/...ank/amari-camp
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  9. #184
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    All the kicking and screaming in the world aren't going to change the facts.
    And yet you keep doing it. I bet you took one of those birthright trips to Israel and downed the Kool-aid.
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  10. #185
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Balata camp is located in the northern West Bank in Nablus city (Area A). Originally intended to serve approximately 5,000 Palestine refugees, it is today the largest camp in the West Bank and home to 27,000 people.

    (Despite being in area A) Life in the camp is intensified by weekly search and arrest operations conducted by Israeli Security Forces (ISF). These often occur at night, resulting in damage to residents’ homes and a sense of fear and anxiety, especially among young children. Residents also report that ISF use the camp for training and regularly enter the camp when accompanying settlers visiting Joseph’s Tomb, located nearby.
    https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/...nk/balata-camp
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  11. #186
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Or you could just admit your wrong

    You can't win this one, your arguing that it's perfectly legal within the UN charter, the UNWRA charter, the ICRC charter and the Geneva Conventions for a neutral third party lending aid to refugees to aid combatants as well. I call BS

    The facts are right there for all to see. The UNWRA is tasked with establishing whatever administrative organization may be required for the purpose of aiding refugees, combatants cannot be refugees and it is a violation of the UN the UNWRA the ICRC and the Geneva Conventions for them to aid combatants.

    Yet to this day they have knowingly both aided combatants and failed in their duty to establish the administrative organization required to ensure the neutral character of asylum. IE refugee status.

    It's spelled out in black and white, you just can't admit it

    So again
    Nonsense, at this point I've quoted dozens of times clear and unequivocal elements of each charter and guiding principals of the agencies IN CHARGE that clearly state exactly that.

    The UN for instance. First article, first sentence.


    1. To maintain international peace and security, and to that end: to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;


    Or the founding resolution of the UNWRA Res-212

    8. REQUESTS the Secretary-General to take all necessary steps to extend aid to Palestine refugees and to establish such administrative organization as may be required for this purpose, inviting the assistance of the appropriate agencies of the several Governments, the specialized agencies of the United Nations, the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the League of Red Cross Societies and other voluntary agencies it being recognized that the participation of voluntary organizations in the relief plan would in no way derogate from the principle of impartiality on the basis of which the assistance of these organizations is being solicited;

    And since you obviously havne't read up on it; the agreement between Israel and the UNWRA, which does NOT include Israel being in "charge" of the camps. That deal is between Israel and the PA.

    From
    http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/foreignpol...0refugees.aspx


    For its part, the Israel Government will facilitate the task of UNRWA to the best of its ability, subject only to regulations or arrangements which may be necessitated by considerations of military security. On this understanding, we are prepared to agree in principle:
    (a) To ensure the protection and security of the personnel, installations and property of UNRWA;
    (b) To permit the free movement of UNRWA vehicles into, within and out of Israel and the areas in question;
    (c) To permit the international staff of the Agency to move in, out and within Israel and the areas in question; they will be provided with identity documents and any other passes which might be required;
    (d) To permit the local staff of the Agency to move within the areas in question under arrangements made or to be made with the military authorities;
    (e) To provide radio, telecommunications and landing facilities;
    (f) Pending a further supplementary agreement, to maintain the previously existing financial arrangements with the governmental authorities then responsible for the areas in question, concerning:
    (i) Exemptions from customs duties, taxes and charges on importation of supplies, goods and equipment;
    (ii) provision free of charge of warehousing, labour for offloading and handling, and transport by rail or road in the areas under our control;
    (iii) such other costs to the Agency as were previously met by the governmental authorities concerned.

    (g) To recognize that the Convention on the Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations of 13 February 1946,1to which Israel is a party, shall govern the relations between the Government and UNRWA in all that concerns UNRWA’s functions.

    can't get much clearer than that Isla
    You just can't handle it. Israel will inevitably end up doing the dirty work, but it's the UNWRA that's ultimately responsible for aiding ONLY legitimate refugees.
    Last edited by Boston; 09-14-2018 at 06:40 AM.

  12. #187
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    ^ Clear as mud. You're getting to be like some of our TV stations, nothing but repeats.

    If you're looking for clear, this is clear..

    Responsibility of UNRWA in camps
    The responsibility of UNRWA in Palestine refugee camps is limited to providing services and administering its installations. The Agency does not own, administer or police the camps, as this is the responsibility of the host authorities.

    https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees
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  13. #188
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Sometimes the PA Police make a stand against IDF incursions into Area A..

    Palestinian Authority police prevented Israeli security forces from entering the West Bank city of Jenin on Sunday afternoon, according to videos posted on social media websites.
    The Israel Defense Forces said it was looking into the incident.

    In the footage posted by the Palestinian Ma’an news agency, the PA security officers, armed with assault rifles, can be seen standing in front of IDF vehicles, blocking their entrance into the city.

    The city of Jenin is considered to be a part of Area A, the portion of the West Bank under the control of the Palestinian Authority. As such, Israeli forces are not supposed to enter the area.
    In practice, however, IDF troops enter the city regularly, typically as part of arrest raids.


    https://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-pol...es-in-the-air/
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  14. #189
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    And, how not to carry out policing and security in the West Bank..

    Israeli border guards charged with robbing Palestinians during traffic stops.

    One officer indicted for stealing from at least six groups of Palestinians, once while armed with a gun, making off with nearly NIS 20,000
    Two border guards were charged this week of robbing Palestinians during illegal searches of their cars in the central West Bank throughout the summer.

    In total, the Border Police officers — Amjad Ashqar, of the Arab Israeli town of Eilabun, and Stefan Rashad, of the northern city of Haifa — were accused of stealing nearly NIS 20,000 ($5,600) from Palestinians over the course of two months. They were charged Wednesday in a Jerusalem District court.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/border...traffic-stops/
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    ^ Clear as mud. You're getting to be like some of our TV stations, nothing but repeats.

    If you're looking for clear, this is clear..

    Responsibility of UNRWA in camps
    The responsibility of UNRWA in Palestine refugee camps is limited to providing services and administering its installations. The Agency does not own, administer or police the camps, as this is the responsibility of the host authorities.

    https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Are we having fun yet?
    More fun than a box of puppies
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  17. #192
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Apparently Boston can't deal with the fact that sometimes Israel is a ****ty regime.
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
    Apparently Boston can't deal with the fact that sometimes Israel is a ****ty regime.
    I'm reasonably sure that he is completely ignorant of Israel's policies and actions towards both Israeli Arabs, as well as Palestinians who are under Israel's thumb.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    Israel can't be occupying it's own land, that's just ridiculous. Israel is within the area defined by the British Mandate as designated for the creation of a National Jewish Homeland.
    Israel wasn't Britain's to give.
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Israel wasn't Britain's to give.
    Now, now, lets not use facts. Ranting nut jobs can't handle them.
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    Maybe I can oblige..

    Basic Law: Israel as the Nation State of the Jewish People

    1 — Basic principles

    A. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.

    B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious and historical right to self-determination.

    C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/final-...to-become-law/


    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    I was wondering when you'd chime in.

    OK so given that there are something like 22 Arab states, what's the problem with having a Jewish state ?
    Right, parity in numbers of tribes, that's the recipe for peace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    And concerning the text, interesting . . .
    Isn't it. It's the text that matters but Isla had to point it out to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    . . . but where in there does it take any rights away from non Judaic citizens ? I see it says "national self determination" but it certainly doesn't effect individual self determination. The nation may be the only Jewish state, but it's citizens clearly are not required to be Jewish themselves.
    Good effort inventing a rationale for something you were theretofore unfamiliar with. Let me suggest a few more . . .

    1. They can take away your national self-determination but not your individual self-determination, so it's OK.

    2. "The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people." You never had it in the first place, so we didn't take it from you! Sure, we declare that you don't have it, but that's just an established fact!

    3. The only reason we declare these things, well-established as they are, is because . . . we need an exemption from the principles of human rights that apply to everyone else.
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    LMAO you guys are arguing that it's legal for a neutral third party to lending aid to refugees to also lend material support to combatants.
    You should hear yourselves.

    A whole lot of ad hominem
    Not a shred of documentation supporting your claims

  23. #198
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
    Now, now, lets not use facts. Ranting nut jobs can't handle them.
    LOL Britain didn't give palestine to Israel, It intended to, but it didn't. The Brits bailed out on a class A mandate by the League of Nations. The Judaic people then declared their own statehood, the Arabs attacked and lost

    Those pesky facts again

    Some people ignore the facts that directly oppose a prefered belief
    Some people face the facts and are compelled to believe
    One is faith based thinking
    The other is critical thinking

    It's not hard to see that emotion and cognitive dissonance play a big role in faith based thinking.

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    LOL Britain didn't give palestine to Israel, It intended to, but it didn't. The Brits bailed out on a class A mandate by the League of Nations. The Judaic people then declared their own statehood, the Arabs attacked and lost

    Those pesky facts again

    Some people ignore the facts that directly oppose a prefered belief
    Some people face the facts and are compelled to believe
    One is faith based thinking
    The other is critical thinking

    It's not hard to see that emotion and cognitive dissonance play a big role in faith based thinking.
    Correction, the Israelis resorted to terrorist acts against the Brits. King David Hotel ring any bells?
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Correction, the Israelis resorted to terrorist acts against the Brits. King David Hotel ring any bells?
    Comes under the heading of "inconvenient facts best papered over".
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  26. #201
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Nice bait and switch

    So you folks think it's perfectly legal for the UNWRA to be lending material aid to combatants ?

    Because obviously the UN charter, the founding UNWRA resolutions the ICRC and the Geneva Conventions all make it clear that character of asylum is neutrality.

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    LMAO you guys are arguing that it's legal for a neutral third party to lending aid to refugees to also lend material support to combatants.
    You should hear yourselves.

    A whole lot of ad hominem
    Not a shred of documentation supporting your claims
    However there is lots of evidence that Israel is a ****ty Regime and Zionism is crap.
    Pet photography, the degree you get when you fail aromatherapy - Duck D.

  28. #203
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Katherine View Post
    However there is lots of evidence that Israel is a ****ty Regime and Zionism is crap.
    All countries were born in war, or nearly all.

    In this particular conflict, the way to peace is for the UNWRA to stop assisting combatants, and begin the healing process.

    It all starts with ending the UNWRAs illegal aid to the war on Israel.
    Last edited by Boston; 09-15-2018 at 01:35 AM.

  29. #204
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    Well it's a nice change of pace but it doesn't address the issue of segregating combatants from noncombatants within a refugee population as specified by the ICRC the UN and the Geneva Conventions ;-)
    In order to fulfil a State’s obligations under international law to intern combatants it receives on its territory, it is required to separate combatants and confine them in a specific area to prevent their resuming armed activities.

    Separation should be undertaken by security agencies, whether this is by the military, police or international peace-keeping forces.

    The active role of these agencies is important, in particular where combatants are armed and refuse to be transferred to internment facilities.

    Humanitarian agencies should not directly participate in the disarmament or separation of combatants.

    http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/452b9bca2.pdf
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  30. #205
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    LOL Britain didn't give palestine to Israel, It intended to, but it didn't. The Brits bailed out on a class A mandate by the League of Nations.
    For every fact you acknowledge, you introduce another error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    The Judaic people then declared their own statehood, the Arabs attacked and lost
    The Judaic people? Woody Allen?

    The Arabs? Whoever that is, the consent of the governed was not sought.

    The Judaic-people-state, just like any other state, cannot acquire territory by war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    Those pesky facts again

    Some people ignore the facts that directly oppose a prefered belief
    Some people face the facts and are compelled to believe
    One is faith based thinking
    The other is critical thinking

    It's not hard to see that emotion and cognitive dissonance play a big role in faith based thinking.
    That Red Russian Bot thing again, accusing others of the wrong that you do yourself.
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  31. #206
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    In order to fulfil a State’s obligations under international law to intern combatants it receives on its territory, it is required to separate combatants and confine them in a specific area to prevent their resuming armed activities.

    Separation should be undertaken by security agencies, whether this is by the military, police or international peace-keeping forces.

    The active role of these agencies is important, in particular where combatants are armed and refuse to be transferred to internment facilities.

    Humanitarian agencies should not directly participate in the disarmament or separation of combatants.

    http://www.refworld.org/pdfid/452b9bca2.pdf
    204 comments later and you are finally addressing the issue. Progress, slow, painful for some obviously, but progress.

    The PA is the responsible party for security in all of the camps within it's sphere of influence. That means the entirety of the west bank and Gaza. The UNWRA is responsible for NOT lending material aid or aid of any sort to combatants. Regardless of who's in charge of security. Unless you can dig up any particular clause excluding it from that responsibility. The language is extremely clear. I can of course quote it again if needs be ;-)

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    204 comments later and you are finally addressing the issue. Progress, slow, painful for some obviously, but progress.

    The PA is the responsible party for security in all of the camps within it's sphere of influence. That means the entirety of the west bank and Gaza. The UNWRA is responsible for NOT lending material aid or aid of any sort to combatants. Regardless of who's in charge of security. Unless you can dig up any particular clause excluding it from that responsibility. The language is extremely clear. I can of course quote it again if needs be ;-)
    Ah, so you didn't really mean it when you posted this..

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    Also you are substantially incorrect when you suggest that segregating combatants from noncombatants isn't a designated responsibility of the UNWRA who's founding mandate ( UN general assembly resolution 302 {IV} which is based on UN general assembly resolution 212 {III} ) clearly states ( page 1 sec 8 )
    Incidentally, neither 212 nor 302 clearly state any such thing. Particularly 212, which you keep quoting, because it is about setting up UNRPR as an emergency temporary measure, with UNRWA being formed over a year later, and not becoming operational until 16 months later, but you know that

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    The PA is the responsible party for security in all of the camps within it's sphere of influence. That means the entirety of the west bank and Gaza.
    That is not strictly true - see #182

    In the West Bank
    Area A - PA have full jurisdiction over security and policing.
    Area B - PA and Israel have shared jurisdiction. Israel enjoys exclusive jurisdiction over the Jewish inhabitants and exclusive authority over security for both its Arab and Jewish inhabitants. The PA has political, administrative and police jurisdiction over the Arab inhabitants. Strictly speaking, only the IDF and the Israel Police can make arrests in these areas.
    Area C - Israel has sole jurisdiction.
    https://www.jpost.com/Magazine/Knowing-your-ABC-448963

    I don't think anything has changed since 2016 when that article was published.
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  33. #208
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Oh no I meant it completely, it is substantially the responsibility of the UNWRA ;-) of course it is. They are tasked with

    the founding resolution of the UNWRA Res-212

    8. REQUESTS the Secretary-General to take all necessary steps to extend aid to Palestine refugees and to establish such administrative organization as may be required for this purpose, inviting the assistance of the appropriate agencies of the several Governments, the specialized agencies of the United Nations, the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the League of Red Cross Societies and other voluntary agencies it being recognized that the participation of voluntary organizations in the relief plan would in no way derogate from the principle of impartiality on the basis of which the assistance of these organizations is being solicited;

    The UNWRA is directed to "take all necessary steps" and "establish such administrative organization as may be required" which clearly means it's supposed to interview and establish eligibility of anyone seeking aid.

    Obviously the UNWRA has failed to do that and instead is illegally lending material aid to combatants, and has been for decades.

    Not surprisingly the UNWRA is mostly staffed by palestinians and that staff is also not vetted to make sure they aren't combatants either.

    And I'm sure I don't need to remind you.

    UN Res-302 which established the UNWRA

    "11.Continues the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees as established under General Assembly resolution 212 (III) until 1 April 1950, or until such date thereafter as the transfer referred to in paragraph 12 is affected, and requests the Secretary-General in consultation with the operating agencies to continue the endeavor to reduce the numbers of rations by progressive stages in the light of the findings and recommendations of the Economic Survey Mission;"

    Lest you get an urge to argue the relevance of 212 again.

    But nice try ;-)

    And of course neither of these established the PAs responsibilities, since the PA didn't even exist at that time, that was the Oslo accords, since the UNWRA was completely and illegally ignoring it's responsibilities to segregate combatants from refugees such that its mission could maintain the character of impartiality.

    You seem very confused, I know it's a complex subject. Maybe if I go slower

    The UNWRA is NOT tasked with holding or removing combatants, they're simply tasked with turning them away from the refugee population seeking asylum in a refugee camp. To that end they are to cooperate with the operating agencies, which were the Israeli's ( not much cooperation there ) and now is the PA ( way more cooperation than is legal there ).
    The PA would be responsible for security these days according to the Oslo accords
    The Israeli's would be responsible for the treatment of POWs according to the Geneva conventions

    It's really not that hard Isla, your just having difficulties admitting your wrong about, well most of this stuff so far. On the bright side, your consistent
    Last edited by Boston; 09-15-2018 at 03:41 PM.

  34. #209
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Here is the exact moment that Israel made one more human being hate them with everything they've got for the rest of his life:



    "A Palestinian child reacts moments after coming home from school and realizing that his family house had been demolished by the municipality in the east Jerusalem neighborhood of Beit Hanina, Feb. 5. The municipality says the building was constructed without proper permits and that its structure was not sound. The 33-member family says it was waiting to receive permits." - NBC

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    Oh no I meant it completely, it is substantially the responsibility of the UNWRA ;-) of course it is. They are tasked with the founding resolution of the UNWRA Res-212

    8. REQUESTS the Secretary-General to take all necessary steps to extend aid to Palestine refugees and to establish such administrative organization as may be required for this purpose, inviting the assistance of the appropriate agencies of the several Governments, the specialized agencies of the United Nations, the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the League of Red Cross Societies and other voluntary agencies it being recognized that the participation of voluntary organizations in the relief plan would in no way derogate from the principle of impartiality on the basis of which the assistance of these organizations is being solicited;

    The UNWRA is directed to "take all necessary steps" and "establish such administrative organization as may be required" which clearly means it's supposed to interview and establish eligibility of anyone seeking aid.
    Posting it in red makes no difference to its meaning. Have you any idea how you are contradicting yourself here, and how ridiculous you seem to be in repeating the same old irrelevant paragraph from Res-212. "The UNRWA is directed?" gimme a break

    You do keep getting it wrong don't you? Res-212 is not the founding resolution of UNRWA, Res-302 is..

    Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli conflict, UNRWA was established by United Nations General Assembly Resolution 302 (IV) of 8 December 1949 to carry out direct relief and works programmes for Palestine refugees. The Agency began operations on 1 May 1950.
    https://www.unrwa.org/who-we-are

    By the time UNRWA became operational in May 1950 the Palestinian refugees were already settled, by UNRPR and the above mentioned relief agencies, and they were settled in Arab held territory. The West Bank was held by Jordan and Gaza was held by Egypt, a situation which continued for seventeen years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    And I'm sure I don't need to remind you. UN Res-302 which established the UNWRA
    Directly contradicting what you posted above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    "11.Continues the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees as established under General Assembly resolution 212 (III) until 1 April 1950, or until such date thereafter as the transfer referred to in paragraph 12 is affected, and requests the Secretary-General in consultation with the operating agencies to continue the endeavor to reduce the numbers of rations by progressive stages in the light of the findings and recommendations of the Economic Survey Mission;"

    Lest you get an urge to argue the relevance of 212 again. But nice try ;-)
    And your point is? That's UNRPR which is referenced there, not UNRWA, which took over from UNRPR in May 1950. Perhaps you should have quoted Res-302 par.12 too..

    12. Instructs the Secretary-General to transfer to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East ( that's UNRWA) the assets and liabilities of the United Nations Relief for Palestine Refugees (that's UNRPR) by 1 April 1950, or at such date as may be agreed by him and the Director of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East;

    You really do have difficulty interpreting these UN resolutions don't you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    The UNWRA is NOT tasked with holding or removing combatants, they're simply tasked with turning them away from the refugee population seeking asylum in a refugee camp. To that end they are to cooperate with the operating agencies, which were the Israeli's ( not much cooperation there ) and now is the PA ( way more cooperation than is legal there ).
    Nope. Not asylum, that's an international issue. You probably mean refugee status. In 1950 the refugees were already settled in Arab held territories, as posted above. The Israelis had nothing to do with it, except where UNRWA supported a relatively small number of displaced people within Israel, from 1950 until 1952, when Israel took responsibility for them.
    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

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