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Thread: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

  1. #71
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    If a place needs permanent UN aid, then the local environment cannot support the local population. Both sides are milking us for free handouts. For such a small part of the world, it sure attracts an unreasonable amount of attention, for basically a tourist attraction

  2. #72
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Tell me, how many tourists does Gaza get?

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    So the state of Israel is a myth and I'm just an ignorant boob, got it LMAO
    You say Israel is the only Jewish state. Who else says so?
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Like many of his faith, he was raised in a tradition that believed that the Jews are God’s chosen people, and that “God gave the land of Israel to the Jews, forever. And that God blesses those who bless the Jews, and God curses those who curse the Jews. And if we want God to bless us and God wants us to bless America, we’ve got to bless the Jews.”
    American exceptionalism is an appropriation of Jewish exceptionalism. Not the only such.

    I had as one group among my neighbors yet another chosen poeple: the Boers, or Afrikaners. Their national or collective myth about themselves owed almost everything to the Bible. Like the Israelites, and their fellow Calvinists in New England, they believed that they had been called by their God to wander through the wilderness, to meet and defeat the heathen, and to occupy a promised land on his behalf.

    Donald Akenson, *God's Peoples: Covenant and Land in South Africa, Israel, and Ulster*, (1992) New York, Cornell University Press.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
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  5. #75
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    The assumption of a faith based belief system within my defense of tribal rights is pathetic. At least try and make a cohesive argument.

    The simple fact is that the refugees grew from maybe 700,000 including combatants refused reentry to their countries of origin to roughly 5.4 million, including combatants, those who assist combatants and those suspected of assisting combatants, and their descendants, in the last 70 or so years. Obviously whatever is being done to alleviate the refugee issue has failed and instead, not only perpetuated it, but resulted in a nearly 8 fold increase in the so called refugee population.

    The UNWRA is a dismal failure. It's time to quit throwing money away and change directions. The first thing that should be done is to segregate combatants from noncombatants and repatriate the combatants according to the Geneva convention guidelines.
    Last edited by Boston; 09-03-2018 at 03:38 PM.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    The assumption of a faith based belief system within my defense of tribal rights is pathetic. At least try and make a cohesive argument.
    OK, tribal rights aren't based on religion. What are they based on?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Well that's easy

    https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii...s/DRIPS_en.pdf


    Puts a damper on that nonsense now doesn't it ;-)
    Last edited by Boston; 09-03-2018 at 07:57 PM.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    Well that's easy

    https://www.un.org/esa/socdev/unpfii...s/DRIPS_en.pdf


    Puts a damper on that nonsense now doesn't it ;-)
    Sure does.

    Bearing in mind that nothing in this Declaration may be used to deny any peoples their right to self-determination, exercised in conformity with international law.
    Tribal people have no right to govern people outside the tribe without their consent.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
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  9. #79
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    The UNWRA is a dismal failure. It's time to quit throwing money away and change directions. The first thing that should be done is to segregate combatants from noncombatants and repatriate the combatants according to the Geneva convention guidelines.
    How do you decide who is a combatant?. if i'm a Palestinian orange farmer and some lunatic bunch of zealots take over my land supported by the Israeli army - and I throw stones at them. Am I a combatant and where can I be repatriated to?
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Sure does.



    Tribal people have no right to govern people outside the tribe without their consent.
    Of course they don't, however, the Arab immigrants chose to attack the native Judaic people which brought about a condition of war. In war the governing articles are the Geneva conventions. It might be reasonably argued that the condition of war still exists at least in some areas of Judea today.

    Since the Arabs failed war against the native Judaic peoples various Arab groups have chosen different paths. Some have chosen to be governed by the native peoples, one of those groups is called Arab Israeli Citizens, others have what's called permanent resident status, both have chosen to be governed by the Native Judaic peoples. Both are free to abandon their status at any time. Then you have the ones that the UNWRA prefers to maintain in a state of perpetual welfare, these include both combatants and noncombatants in an ongoing war with the Native Judaic people. So the UN tenants of Indigenous rights have been carefully adhered to by the Native Judaic government, and no one if forced to be governed by the native government of the Judaic tribes.

    These native Judaic tribes, as I'm sure you also read, have the right to

    "Article 9
    Indigenous peoples and individuals have the right to belong to anindigenous community or nation, in accordance with the traditionsand customs of the community or nation concerned. No discrimina-tion of any kind may arise from the exercise of such a right."



    Which places the Arab nations at odds with the UN declaration of native rights as they boycott Israel based on the application of there right to self determination within their own nation.

    NEXT ;-)
    Last edited by Boston; 09-04-2018 at 12:09 AM.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    How do you decide who is a combatant?. if i'm a Palestinian orange farmer and some lunatic bunch of zealots take over my land supported by the Israeli army - and I throw stones at them. Am I a combatant and where can I be repatriated to?
    That's a great question. It's a ridiculously complicated answer. The conventions dedicate countless pages and a ridiculous amount of legal language to exactly that question. There's lawful combatants, unlawful combatants, privileged combatants, unprivileged combatants, spies, mercenaries, child soldiers, citizens who take part, active or ancillary in a conflict, those who assist any of the former those tho are suspected of assisting any of the former, it's endless.

    The only easy part of it is that the controlling power has the right to repatriate combatants of any status unilaterally. IE they are only responsible for them in so far as they remain within their area of influence. So they could legally simply parachute them over enemy territory and their legal obligations would end right then and there. The combatants nationality or citizenship status is irrelevant to the controlling powers right to repatriate combatants. Legitimate refugees or residents are a different story but combatants have very few rights in the mater of repatriation.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Sheesh - just gets more intractible.
    It seems to put a hand brake on your suggested move to do away with the UNWRA. It may be a wet squib, but at least its something - no? If only an official record keeper.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Sheesh - just gets more intractible.
    It seems to put a hand brake on your suggested move to do away with the UNWRA. It may be a wet squib, but at least its something - no? If only an official record keeper.
    UNWRA is just perpetuating the problem. The policies they have enacted, the failure to enact other long standing charter principals. Obviously with an 8 fold increase in palestinian refugees rather than a reduction over such a long period of time, can only indicate a massive failure of those policies.

    The UNWRA is also run mostly by palestinian "refugees" who polls show are much more interested in the destruction of Israel than returning refugees to meaningful roles within there countries of origin or countries of choice.

    Basically enough is enough and if the UNWRA isn't going to do anything but support perpetual failure then something else must be done and it starts with repurposing the money wasted on the UNWRA

    The first and most egregious failure that must be addressed is the failure to segregate combatants from noncombatants. Once that is accomplished legitimate refugees can begin to be placed in countries that are willing to accept them. It's important to realize that the host nation of a refugee camp is NOT required to offer permanent citizenship to those refugees.

  14. #84
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    The assumption of a faith based belief system within my defense of tribal rights is pathetic. At least try and make a cohesive argument.

    The simple fact is that the refugees grew from maybe 700,000 including combatants refused reentry to their countries of origin to roughly 5.4 million, including combatants, those who assist combatants and those suspected of assisting combatants, and their descendants, in the last 70 or so years. Obviously whatever is being done to alleviate the refugee issue has failed and instead, not only perpetuated it, but resulted in a nearly 8 fold increase in the so called refugee population.

    The UNWRA is a dismal failure. It's time to quit throwing money away and change directions. The first thing that should be done is to segregate combatants from noncombatants and repatriate the combatants according to the Geneva convention guidelines.
    Now that is an interesting perspective, aside from all the other drama.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  15. #85
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    Originally Posted by Boston
    The assumption of a faith based belief system within my defense of tribal rights is pathetic. At least try and make a cohesive argument.

    The simple fact is that the refugees grew from maybe 700,000 including combatants refused reentry to their countries of origin to roughly 5.4 million, including combatants, those who assist combatants and those suspected of assisting combatants, and their descendants, in the last 70 or so years. Obviously whatever is being done to alleviate the refugee issue has failed and instead, not only perpetuated it, but resulted in a nearly 8 fold increase in the so called refugee population.

    The UNWRA is a dismal failure. It's time to quit throwing money away and change directions. The first thing that should be done is to segregate combatants from noncombatants and repatriate the combatants according to the Geneva convention guidelines.
    Now that is an interesting perspective, aside from all the other drama.

    Pete
    Something to do with having their homes and land taken from them. If you lose your home and your rights in your home state you and all of the following generations become refugees. All the way down the generations. What should they do, stop having children?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #86
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Something to do with having their homes and land taken from them. If you lose your home and your rights in your home state you and all of the following generations become refugees. All the way down the generations. What should they do, stop having children?
    Nick, FWIW, my sympathies lie very much on the Palestinian side. But what this very clearly illustrates is that not all of the people there are refugees in the sense that they have escaped some dire situation. Rather, they have been born into it, with no choice in the matter. What that actually means, I don't know.
    But what is obvious, and something I had given no thought to, is that the scale of a whole bunch of problems in Gaza, everything from education to sewage disposal, not to mention the number of people, are going to get exponentially worse the longer things remain unresolved. Where do you think the population will be at, say ten years from now? And if UNWRA is stretched now, well?

    Pete
    Last edited by epoxyboy; 09-04-2018 at 05:05 AM.
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  17. #87
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    In Israel the orthodox are increasing their influence and enforcing if they can strict observance, in some case by misusing the law. Non orthodox Rabbis have been arrested for conducting non-orthodox marriages. To me an increase in nationalism and the statements that 'we are a democracy, but……….." are not a good sign.
    https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-is...ple-are-angry/

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Seems to me the Jews learnt the wrong lessons from the Nazis.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Seems to me the Jews learnt the wrong lessons from the Nazis.
    You have just committed anti-Semitism according to the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com...n-antisemitism
    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #90
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    The Israeli's didn't start the war, ergo are not ultimately responsible for the so called refugees. As I'm sure you all remember the Judaic people were buying up land at hyper inflated prices when the the Arabs attacked. So if the Arabs attack and displace Arabs in the process, why aren't the Arabs taking responsibility for the consequences of a war they began and lost.

    Now we can bet some folks will start jumping up and down about the evil Jews steeling land but that's just a lie, they defended themselves and in the process took up defensive positions conducive to that effort. Oh I'm sure there are faultless refugees mixed in with the rest. Which is why I suggest it's high time we begin separating the combatants from the noncombatants exactly according to the Geneva Conventions and begin to settle the legitimate refugees. By settle I don't mean that the host nation, in this case Israel is required to allow refugees within its sphere of influence citizenship. No country is required to provide that. I just mean that the refugee issue could be reduced significantly by simply adhering to the rules already laid out by the world body through existing agreements; IE the Geneva conventions. Segregate combatants from noncombatants, that way Israel will be able to trust the peaceful intent of the remaining legitimate refugees after some probational period. Who knows, maybe if the violence stopped long enough, this thing might be settled a bit more equitably.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    *sigh*
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  22. #92
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Truth is boring isn't it Norm.

    For instance the Geneva conventions outline clearly how the refugee issue should be handled, by first segregating legitimate refugees from combatants. Something that has in ~70 years, yet to be accomplished within the palestinian refugee population.

    See
    https://www.icrc.org/eng/resources/d...ent/57jqwh.htm

    And
    https://emergency.unhcr.org/entry/11...cter-of-asylum

    [COLOR=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.8)]"Asylum means the granting by a State of protection on its territory to individuals fleeing another country owing to persecution, serious harm, armed conflict or other situations of violence. Asylum therefore has an inherently peaceful, civilian and humanitarian character. Military activity is incompatible with the very institution of asylum. Persons who pursue military activities in a country of asylum cannot be asylum-seekers or refugees. It must therefore be ensured that only civilians benefit from asylum, and also that refugee camps/settlements are protected from militarisation or the presence of combatants (defined below), as well as from attack more generally. Maintaining the civilian and humanitarian character of asylum is of crucial importance, notably at the onset of an emergency situation."

    As well as
    http://www.un-documents.net/gc-4.htm

    "Article 5.

    Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State.
    Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.
    In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be."


    IE your not a refugee if your a combatant.

    It's a pretty simple fact laid out in all kinds of documents governing war.

    [/COLOR]

  23. #93
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    So what percentage of what are presently being called refugees do you think could be designated combatants under the ICRC UN and Geneva Conventions ?

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    This can not end well you know Boston, for any of the parties involved.

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You have just committed anti-Semitism according to the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com...n-antisemitism
    Really? And here I was thinking I was making valid social comment.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  26. #96
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    But it has to end never the less, Thorp. We had about 700,000 refugees to begin with, maybe half were combatants but were never isolated from the legitimate refugee population. Now we have 5.4 million, maybe half are combatants, who knows. How many more are there going to be in another few years. The growth isn't linear, it's exponential, so ?????

    I'm just suggesting that if there is going to be any progress, someone is going to have to face the reality of combatants mixed in with legitimate refugees.

    You can't possibly expect Israel to accept a large body of hostile forces within the refugee population to be incorporated into it's population. Expel the enemy combatants as specified in numerous international documents within the refugee population and maybe there's a chance of a peaceful solution, Don't expel the enemy combatants, and there's no chance of a peaceful solution.

    Neither side has suggested it because it is a hard solution, but what's the alternative.

    Better to make the tough decisions now than wait till tougher decisions will have to be made later.

    You want both sides to make sacrifices to find middle ground, seems reasonable the first thing that Israel should be asking for is that only legitimate refugees be considered as potential future citizens.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Israel has no intention past, present or future of allowing Palestinians to keep their land in the occupied territories.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  28. #98
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    But it has to end never the less, Thorp. We had about 700,000 refugees to begin with, maybe half were combatants but were never isolated from the legitimate refugee population. Now we have 5.4 million, maybe half are combatants, who knows. How many more are there going to be in another few years. The growth isn't linear, it's exponential, so ?????

    I'm just suggesting that if there is going to be any progress, someone is going to have to face the reality of combatants mixed in with legitimate refugees.

    You can't possibly expect Israel to accept a large body of hostile forces within the refugee population to be incorporated into it's population. Expel the enemy combatants as specified in numerous international documents within the refugee population and maybe there's a chance of a peaceful solution, Don't expel the enemy combatants, and there's no chance of a peaceful solution.

    Neither side has suggested it because it is a hard solution, but what's the alternative.

    Better to make the tough decisions now than wait till tougher decisions will have to be made later.

    You want both sides to make sacrifices to find middle ground, seems reasonable the first thing that Israel should be asking for is that only legitimate refugees be considered as potential future citizens.
    What about the Palestinians being forced out of Jerusalem and the West Bank? They are not refugees but they are being turned into refugees.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Really? And here I was thinking I was making valid social comment.
    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ree-expression
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Israel has no intention past, present or future of allowing Palestinians to keep their land in the occupied territories.

    Well it's not their land, and there are no occupied territories, it's owned, by Israel as the controlling power. The Israeli's were peacefully buying up land when the Arabs started a war, and lost. There's consequences to war. One is that most nations were born of war, just like Israel. When you can effectively argue that other sovereign nations are "occupying" the land within their borders and have an obligation to "return" it to someone, then maybe you'll have a point, but until then ;-)

    And, my favorite part, is that plenty of Arabs living within Israel have full citizenship and hold positions within the government. So obviously your assertion that Israel has no intent of including the Arab population is incorrect.

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    What about the Palestinians being forced out of Jerusalem and the West Bank? They are not refugees but they are being turned into refugees.
    Maybe you can quote a specific case. Since generalizations are less than adequate concerning the issue.

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    And, my favorite part, is that plenty of Arabs living within Israel have full citizenship....
    That is simply NOT true.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Really? And here I was thinking I was making valid social comment.
    Yeah, you need to be carefull about that, might find yourself on the end of a gag order.......some things, some people just do not like being put out there......

  34. #104
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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    And, my favorite part, is that plenty of Arabs living within Israel have full citizenship and hold positions within the government. So obviously your assertion that Israel has no intent of including the Arab population is incorrect.
    So what about this...."The European Union has led a chorus of criticism after Israel passed a controversial law declaring that only Jews have the right of self-determination in the country." ?

    Is it a bit like an immigrant from the EU can come and live in Sweden as a citizen, but at the same time discriminated against because they are a "non-Swede"?

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    Default Re: US and Australia cut palestinian funding

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    That is simply NOT true.
    Oh cmon now Norm. 21% of Israeli citizens are Arab, they have equal voting rights, Arab woman have the right to vote, which they don't have in many Arab countries. The ONLY legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is that Arabs are NOT required to serve in the Israeli military although many chose too. Both Arabic and Hebrew are official state languages and Arabs actively serve in the Israeli government.

    So it's pretty clear that Arabs have been welcomed into the Israeli way of life.

    It boils down to the false narrative that the palestinian refugees are simply victims of Israeli aggression, when in fact many if not most are active combatants, assisting combatants or fall under a strong suspicion of aiding or being combatants exactly as specified in the Geneva conventions, the ICRC or even the UN charter definitions.

    Sorry Norm, but like it or not, the first step to peace will have to be segregating combatants from noncombatants.

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