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Thread: Big little boat

  1. #1
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    Default Big little boat

    Hello all, it has been quite a long time since i last posted. I am ready to build my first boat. I have rebuilt/ restored 2 small sailboats (f-glass) and one aluminum powerboat, so I am somewhat handy and have a general idea how to rig a small sailboat. I am wanting to build a daysailer with character. I am not very concerned with performance as I am not a racer. I would however like a boat that has enough sail area to be sailed in light winds and enough power to push through some chop without being brought to a dead stop. I believe that this means that a heavy hull is needed. I have been looking at George Buehlers Pogo Pogo schooner design. 2000lbs on a 16ft hull and it looks like 4 will fit for an afternoon sail. I am not set on a schooner design but a traditional look and character would be nice. Keep in mind that the boat needs to be seaworthy enough for lake Erie. I have no problem going larger or heavier, I trailer a 28'x10' 8000lbs aluminum powerboat on a regular basis, however this will be my first build so I would like something simple. I do not need a heritage hand me down quality boat for my first build.
    What other designs should I be looking at?
    Any other considerations I have missed?

    Thanks in advance -John

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Mary Read?

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Ebihen 18 by Francois Vivier, available with a Flambart lug schooner rig. About twice as much cockpit space, a longer waterline and twice the sail area at comparable weight (3300 lb vs 2280).
    25ft Tancook Schooner by Paul Gartside. Again, much more canvas and nicer lines.

    To me both are more refined, contemporary and better looking boats than the Pogo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Layzboy2011 View Post
    I would however like a boat that has enough sail area to be sailed in light winds
    Then I fear you have to look elsewhere than the Pogo. A glance at sailarea to displacement tells the tale here:
    Pogo: 13
    Ebihen 18: 19
    Tancook: 16

    The conventional range goes
    16 to 18 Heavy offshore cruisers
    18 to 22 Medium cruisers
    22 to 26 Inshore cruisers, racing boats
    26 to 30 Extreme racing boats

    Small open boats don't fit intothis scale all that well, but the Bueler is seriously undercanvassed.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Thanks for the replies. The Ebihen 18 is both new to me and an interesting possibility. I think that the Tancook Schooner might be to big of a project for me to take on. I should mention that I have build plans for Aitkins America jr. and Florence Oakland. The Florence is an option, But the plans lack detail for me to feel comfortable with the complexity.
    That's why I landed on the Pogo in the first place, the simplicity is very appealing. I would honestly rather have a simple build over a beautiful hull form. I know that I am being picky and I do appreciate your suggestions but I don't want to get in over my head on this project so simple is better.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    I never saw mary read on the website until you pointed her out. She seems like a 2ft longer pogo

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Have you looked at the Whitholtz catboats? Ply construction, traditional style, can sail 4 easily. Our host sells plans for a couple of them. You get a lot of boat for the length with a cat.

    https://www.woodenboatstore.com/prod...TAL/daysailers
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Layzboy2011 View Post
    I would however like a boat that has enough sail area to be sailed in light winds and enough power to push through some chop without being brought to a dead stop. I believe that this means that a heavy hull is needed.
    It'd be interesting to see what others with more theoretical knowledge have to say, but I don't think a heavy hull will necessarily be better (or as good) as a properly designed light hull. That weight, for instance, will not do wonders for sailing in light winds.

    A fine entry angle on the bow can do a lot to slice through chop cleanly without excess weight.

    Buehler is great--the stuff of dreams, and my own entry point into building and sailing boats was his book--but I suspect you'll get better performance (NOT racing, but handiness, seaworthiness, ability to handle a chop, simple to handle while sailing, lighter to load and trailer, etc) from designers like:

    Ian Oughtred, John Welsford, Ross Lillistone, Francois Vivier, Paul Gartside--lots more, but those are the names that leap to my mind when thinking of plans inspired by traditional boats, but maximizing use of modern materials.

    John Welsford's Pathfinder, for example, is a very high-volume roomy capable boat. If you want to really emphasize simplicity of construction, Jim Michalak's Family Skiff is a very roomy comfortable boat with simple construction.

    But hey, you really can't go too far wrong as long as it gets you out there sailing, can you? Enjoy the choosing process.

    Do you know Duckworks Boatbuilding Supply? Wide selection of plans from different designers.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    I'd second John Welsford's Pathfinder, having built one. It is a very big 17 foot boat, most people would find their limits of unpleasantness before the boat was in trouble- assuming it was well sailed.
    Mine was the cabin version, so perhaps not quite as good for four. The standard "open boat" version would very comfortably daysail with four adults, with room to spare for non participating crew well out of the way.

    Pete
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    What about this one?



    I have a set of plans if you want them. I am building the 33 ft version so I can help you with advice, what I have learned along the way, mostly by my mistakes.

    Here's a thread discussing it. Note: The beam was increased to 7 ft from the original plans and the sail area enlarged from what was depicted in the Watercraft article.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...y-Reuel-Parker
    Last edited by Rigadog; 09-02-2018 at 07:53 AM.
    If he ever drinks the brew of 10 tanna leaves, he will become a monster the likes of which the world has never seen



  10. #10
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Could also be built w/o cabin I suppose

    If he ever drinks the brew of 10 tanna leaves, he will become a monster the likes of which the world has never seen



  11. #11
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    [QUOTE=Layzboy2011;5663469I would however like a boat that has enough sail area to be sailed in light winds and enough power to push through some chop without being brought to a dead stop. I believe that this means that a heavy hull is needed.
    Thanks in advance -John[/QUOTE]

    If a heavy hull was needed to sail in light winds and push through chop without stopping, then most high-speed raceboats in the world must have been designed by idiots. That's not likely - they make them light for a reason. If you take a heavy boat of outstanding design with a world-class winning record, like an S&S modified Finnisterre, you will find you are so much slower when pushing through chop than a good light boat of the same size, you literally will not be able to see them within a few hours.

    By the way, as Moritz pointed out, the Pogo Pogo has a pretty small rig, and at twice the weight of a Herreshoff 12 1/2 and ten times the weight of some modern boats of that length, it's hard to see it sailing very well in light winds.
    Last edited by Chris249; 09-02-2018 at 08:22 AM.
    Has BigFella and SkyBlue on ignore.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Rigadog View Post
    What about this one?



    I have a set of plans if you want them. I am building the 33 ft version so I can help you with advice, what I have learned along the way, mostly by my mistakes.

    Here's a thread discussing it. Note: The beam was increased to 7 ft from the original plans and the sail area enlarged from what was depicted in the Watercraft article.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...y-Reuel-Parker
    Gotta wear a helmet sailing this ?

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    I like the Mary Read, but as pointed out, its heavy and somewhat undercanvassed as far as ratios go. Having said that, she is easy to build from lumberyard stuff, and will im sure be quite able when the wind picks up of punching through a chop, possibly under full sail. Easy enough to make a sail plan bigger.

    Tom mentioned the Family skiff, i just sold mine, but a world apart from a Beuhler type construction. 200 hour build and around 300lb, but that flat bottom would pound going through a chop, though its more noise than anything else, she never got stopped dead.

    So many boats in this size range, hard to pick one out above another, but having your known requirements should make it easier.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Gotta wear a helmet sailing this ?
    Place the "widow-maker" at the other end.....

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    so many beautiful boats! I really like the ebhein 15 and 18. but I do not think that I am up for a strip or clinker build method. I would like to stay with plywood on bulkhead/ frame construction if possible. Is there a comparable design to the ebhein with a more simple construction type? I have been through duckworks and many other websites and I can tell you all of the boats I think are beautiful, but not so much which ones are suitable for my requirements. I do like the John Welsford designs as well but they -look- like a complicated build. Are they as complicated as they look?

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Layzboy2011 View Post
    I do like the John Welsford designs as well but they -look- like a complicated build. Are they as complicated as they look?
    If by "complicated" you mean "a lot of parts to build and fit together" then yes. But then again, each individual step or part is not super difficult--it just takes time.

    If simplicity of construction and room to take 4 people aboard are the main priorities, you might want to consider Jim Michalak's Laguna design:

    laguna.jpg

    Cheap, fast to build, roomy, fairly capable in the right hands (e.g. they have completed the Texas 200 and Everglades Challenge).

    Tom
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  17. #17
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Simple, i imagine can also be applied to a Core Sound 17/20, i reckon.

    http://boatplans.cc/b-b-yacht-designs/core-sound-17/


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    Default Re: Big little boat

    I was just getting ready to WI-Tom to say that the Laguna looked very close but maybe a v-bottom would be better for lake Erie as I could imagine a lot of pounding on a choppy day. Maybe a v bottom won't help much but the core sound 17 seems just about perfect! I will order a set of plans on Tuesday to have a look as they are very reasonably priced and a small part of what a boat will cost even if I do not use them. Please keep the suggestions coming because a few of these are boats I have never seen before after much searching.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    I was also looking at glen-l fancy free or maybe Sam Delvin winter wren (both without cabin?) Is it reasonable to ask a designer if his design is suitable for building without a cabin? Or are designs as is? I would Not be asking for a free re drawing of a design either way just and opinion of suitability.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Vivier boats are computer designed down to the last knee, which for clinker includes the planks. So if you can get a kit, they shouldn't be too much of a hassle.

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Moritz, I was unable to find a US supplier of a kit for the 18' version it looks like Clint Chase in maine will produce a kit for the 15 or 16 but they do not list a price. I will have to check on Tuesday if it will be possible. That 18 sure is a good looking boat and probably worth the extra complication.

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Hi,

    if you can moor her, stay with mary or pogo. A few weeks before he died, George pronounced a bigger rig for Mary Read:

    http://georgebuehler.com/Mary%20Read.html

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Layzboy2011 View Post
    so many beautiful boats! I really like the ebhein 15 and 18. but I do not think that I am up for a strip or clinker build method. I would like to stay with plywood on bulkhead/ frame construction if possible. Is there a comparable design to the ebhein with a more simple construction type? I have been through duckworks and many other websites and I can tell you all of the boats I think are beautiful, but not so much which ones are suitable for my requirements. I do like the John Welsford designs as well but they -look- like a complicated build. Are they as complicated as they look?
    The answer to the last question is "no". About 2/3 of the boats built to my designs are built by first timers, and I dont get a lot of people phoning me in the middle of the night asking sticky questions, and there is a very high completion rate, many of which are superbly finished.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Layzboy2011 View Post
    so many beautiful boats! I really like the ebhein 15 and 18. but I do not think that I am up for a strip or clinker build method. I would like to stay with plywood on bulkhead/ frame construction if possible. Is there a comparable design to the ebhein with a more simple construction type?
    Vivier's Lilou is stitch and tape.





    Check through the Sail and Motor Pron thread also...

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...and-Motor-Pr0n
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 09-03-2018 at 05:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Caledonia Yawl

    enlarged LFH Carpenter

    noman's land boat

    Mackinac boat
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Caledonia Yawl

    enlarged LFH Carpenter

    noman's land boat

    Mackinac boat
    Great boats, Paul, but apparently you missed this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyboy2011 View Post
    this will be my first build so I would like something simple. I do not need a heritage hand me down quality boat for my first build.
    Tom
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Ec22 then
    Last edited by Paul Pless; 09-03-2018 at 03:31 PM.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Now you're talking!

    Tom
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  29. #29
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Layzboy2011 View Post
    Moritz, I was unable to find a US supplier of a kit for the 18' version it looks like Clint Chase in maine will produce a kit for the 15 or 16 but they do not list a price. I will have to check on Tuesday if it will be possible. That 18 sure is a good looking boat and probably worth the extra complication.
    Any cabinet shop with a big enough CNC can cut the ply, you just need the cutting files. I wrote with M. Vivier a few years ago and he agreed to sell me the files for an Ilur along with the plans to have it cut at a shop near me. Just write him an email.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Simple easy plywood character and not an heirloom.

    The Stevnson Project Weekender pretty much fits that description. Just a thought. It is a simple build with good instructions and can be built from lumber store supplies. Here is a link and below are some pictures of the one I built.

    http://www.stevproj.com/IntroWkndrPg1.html







    Chad
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  31. #31
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    I have seen the weekender before, but I have read that she does not sail very well. What is your opinion in how she sailed? I was actually looking at the daysailer version without a cabin. Moritz, I emailed Clint Chase and he said that he is able to produce kits, and he mentioned I an 18' version of his calendar islands yawl which is in development that he thought would be suitable.

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    One more question, does anybody know how to order from the Buehler website now? I email (before I heard of his passing) but I have not had a response.

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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Have you writen to Francois Vivier himself?
    The cutting files for the Ebihen 18 are available though his website, all that you need then is a stack of marine ply, a local finish carpenter with a CNC mill and a source for the dimensional lumber.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    Quote Originally Posted by Layzboy2011 View Post
    I have seen the weekender before, but I have read that she does not sail very well. What is your opinion in how she sailed? I was actually looking at the daysailer version without a cabin.

    For my purposes I think she sailed fairly well. Keep in mind I'm not an expert and I sailed on inland lakes. I felt the full length keel allowed her to track very well and I don't feel like she was under powered.

    I did capsize her once (and "they" said it couldn't be done), but it was probably my fault. I was holding the sheets in tight and had the rail buried when I caught a gust and couldn't let 'em go fast enough. I was sailing right on the knife edge the whole time and when she decides to go she is gone. Later my GPS indicated that I was doing over 5 knots when it happened.

    I had fun with her but I know want something smaller and simpler to sail. Love the Gaff rig but I want to simplify on a smaller boat.

    There used to be a very active Weekender group, I don't know if they are still around or not. Here is a link to the site. https://messing-about.com/forums/

    Chad
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  35. #35
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    Default Re: Big little boat

    I found the old thread about the capsize I had. Might be worth looking to better understand how a Weekender sails.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ight=weekender

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

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