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Thread: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

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    Default 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Diolen seems to be the European equivalent to Xynole – or at least similar. I'm building a 27' motorboat in Germany that calls for 2-layers of Xynole on the bottom. Xynole is 4oz. a square yard. I've found Diolen that is nearly 8oz. a square yard. So! Could I just use one layer of Diolen instead of 2-layers of Xynole – provided that the materials are similar? What do you think?
    Last edited by Stan Snapple; 08-30-2018 at 02:15 PM.

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    I know only what you have said about Diolen. I have used and tested Xynole quite a bit . Xynole is a very loose weave so I can see that a heavier, per area, material could be woven with a higher thread count than Xynole or, the individual threads could be heavier, but have no information on that.

    In any case Xynole threads are very fuzzy and absorb lots of epoxy and provide high abrasion and penetration resistance. I would think that 8oz Diolen would be better in most respects, including needing less epoxy, than two layers of Xynole. I use and specify Xynole on bottoms and topsides of powerboats mainly for abrasion resistance, impact resistance and waterproofing as well as much higher peel strength relative to fiberglass.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Yes, the two fabrics are similar in material and weave. However, replacing two 4-oz laminates of Xynole with a single 'almost' 8-oz Diolen laminate will not be the same. Two thin laminates will have a higher resin content than one laminate of double-weight fabric, and if your single laminate is actually less than 2x the weight of laminate you are substituting, you will end up with significantly less resin in the matrix.

    However, in my quick research I found a supplier of Diolen (EasyComposites in the UK) who advertise Diolen at 300 gsm, which works out to be greater than 8-oz per sq. yd. If the fabric that you are considering is 300gsm, it would be a good alternative. Make sure that you saturate the fabric thoroughly.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Thanks Tom. If you're interested, here's a good description of the Diolen...
    https://www.ecfibreglasssupplies.co....len-900mm-wide

    I'm new to all of this. So barring any new info, I think I'm going to try it. The Diolen is available in various weights. So I'll 8oz. for the boat bottom and 5oz everywhere else.

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Thanks for the advice mmd!

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    From data sheet:
    With a Resin: Diolen ratio of 1:1 , i.e 1 mt of 265g Diolen will use 265g of Resin.

    I question that a 1:1 ratio can be done with a hand layup & no vacuum. That sounds much lighter than I get with Xynole. Would like to see closeup of the individual theads.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Tom, this is the website that I got the fabric info from:

    http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/f...en-woven-cloth

    This is the website of the company that makes the fibre products:

    http://www.innegratech.com/
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    From data sheet:
    With a Resin: Diolen ratio of 1:1 , i.e 1 mt of 265g Diolen will use 265g of Resin.

    I question that a 1:1 ratio can be done with a hand layup & no vacuum. That sounds much lighter than I get with Xynole. Would like to see closeup of the individual theads.
    I agree, which is the only safe opinion when responding to one of Tom's answers on this topic. You can get a 1:1 weight ratio with fiberglass. The glass fibers are twice as dense as both the resin and plastic fibers. The volume ratio should be similar for either glass or plastic fibers, so the weight ratio will be very different. 5oz plastic cloth has twice the volume of a 5oz glass cloth, so it will take as much resin as 10oz glass. Dynel also has a texturized yarn from the look of it, which would take even more resin.

    I never completely trust manufacturer's data sheets unless I know how well they vet the information. I am not saying that it is wrong, just rather optimistic. Take it a a guideline. It is often based on a single test or optimal sample and the test data is often older than dirt or copied from another vendors data sheet. I have had to write a lot of material specs with guaranteed minimum properties for anything from metals to epoxies so I have had to discuss the accuracy and source of information with the vendors. For high reliability applications, some lab testing is part of the receiving inspection and a separate sample is provided with the order. The published data is generally 'typical', which from a more responsible vendor will be 5-10% higher than they would be able to guarantee.

    See also Dionel vs. Xynole vs. Dynel

    1 m2 = 1.196 yd2
    300 g = 10.582 oz
    300 g/m2 = 12.65 oz/yd2

    Last edited by MN Dave; 08-30-2018 at 05:05 PM.
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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Tom, this is the website that I got the fabric info from:

    http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/f...en-woven-cloth

    This is the website of the company that makes the fibre products:

    http://www.innegratech.com/
    Michael, The white/clear material does not look at all like either Xynole or Dynel. The threads look like long linear fibers with a somewhat shiny surface, not like the fuzzy dull appearance of Xynole or Dynel. I am reluctant to say anything more without a piece in hand to see detail.

    Innegra looks interesting with a claim of lightweight and low elongation. Also looks expensive.

    Dave, I agree that two equal woven layers will most likely be thicker than equivalent weight single layer one and will take more resin to fill as well, all adding up to more weight.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Going back to the original question, Diolen looks similar to Xynole, but it looks to me that Diolen is a higher strength material. In my opinion, one 8 oz layer of Diolen should perform (abrasion resistance and impact) somewhat better than two 4oz layers of Xynole, while using less epoxy.

    Innegra is a polypropylene fiber that is similar to Spectra. I've been out of this business for a while, but there is an interesting comparison of the high strength fibers here: https://www.compositesworld.com/arti...he-cross-hairs

    Properties:
    Innegra http://www.innegratech.com/technical Compared to Kevlar, it is a bit less than half as strong and stiff, but still competitive as a structural fiber.
    Diolen is a high tenacity polyester. It is not easy to find mechanical properties for this one except for rope and net material.{EDIT It was easier last time I looked(#10). http://www.php-fibers.com/fileadmin/...__01.2017_.pdf } http://www.unuftp.is/static/fellows/...ramos99-ff.pdf has some g/den info, but this is probably more useful: https://ocw.tudelft.nl/wp-content/up...ropemanual.pdf
    Polyester (= Dacron, Terylene, Trevira, Diolen) is a particularly reliable fibre with mechanical properties quite close to those of nylon. The abrasion resistance of polyester is better than that of nylon and so is the tension-tension fatigue performance. Since the cost of both fibres is quite similar polyester should generally be preferred.
    One interesting application I saw on a kayak forum was to use Diolen as an inner layer in a fiberglass boat. When the fiberglass is overloaded, the outer fiberglass layers break and the Diolen layer doesn't, so the damage is less severe.

    Tom, I think you are answering this post: #16
    Last edited by MN Dave; 09-02-2018 at 04:28 PM.
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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    For the sake of conversation, I quote a different perspective:

    "While 8oz fibers are twice the diameter/weight of 4oz, its still only one ply so your matrix is only going to be one layer thick and any failure is going not have any backup, its just going to tear and peel right along the fail axis."


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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Stan, I disagree with the above argument. The chemical bond between plies is going to be orders of magnitude greater in strength than the mechanical bond between resin and ply substrate, so any peeling will separate at the fabric/wood boundary, not interlaminarly between fabric plies. Ergo, no 'backup' by having two plies instead of one.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Thanks! I'm going with the 300g/m!

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan Snapple View Post
    For the sake of conversation, I quote a different perspective:

    "While 8oz fibers are twice the diameter/weight of 4oz, its still only one ply so your matrix is only going to be one layer thick and any failure is going not have any backup, its just going to tear and peel right along the fail axis."

    The individual fibers in the yarn should be the same regardless of fabric weight. In the heavier cloth, the yarn would have more fibers in each strand. You might be overthinking the failure modes. More total fiber weight will increase the overall properties, and whether it is multiple layers or not shouldn't make much difference when you are just looking a wear surface on plywood. There is a lot of information here: #41
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Hey guys, Too much conclusion from too little data. First, we don't know whether the higher weight material is due to heavier yarns or more density of yarns per inch which makes a big difference in thickness. Second, double weight yarn does not mean double diameter of yarn. More like the square root of weight ratio since weight and area (weight) of yarn track exactly.

    Peel strength is highly variable in different materials and construction. Xynole has very high peel strength while polypropylene peels pretty easily with fiberglass between these two. Peeling Xynole will tear the surface veneer of plywood and polypropylene will peel off fairly clean. Fiberglas will peel a some plywood but mostly leave a fairly clean fabric surface. Unless more is known about the properties of Diolen, who knows what its peel strength is. Without some tests, I would not place a lot of faith in data sheets that do not address the specific area of concern.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Interestingly, the price of Dionel appears to go up as its weight goes down. The widths are different, but my general observation is correct.

    $14/meter for 158 gsm (4.66 oz)
    $9.75/meter for 200 gsm (5.9 oz)
    $6.21/meter for 300 gsm (8.85 oz)

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    OK. I won't offer any conclusions. I'm out...
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Ha! Thanks for your expertise!

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Hey guys, Too much conclusion from too little data. First, we don't know whether the higher weight material is due to heavier yarns or more density of yarns per inch which makes a big difference in thickness. Second, double weight yarn does not mean double diameter of yarn. More like the square root of weight ratio since weight and area (weight) of yarn track exactly.

    Peel strength is highly variable in different materials and construction. Xynole has very high peel strength while polypropylene peels pretty easily with fiberglass between these two. Peeling Xynole will tear the surface veneer of plywood and polypropylene will peel off fairly clean. Fiberglas will peel a some plywood but mostly leave a fairly clean fabric surface. Unless more is known about the properties of Diolen, who knows what its peel strength is. Without some tests, I would not place a lot of faith in data sheets that do not address the specific area of concern.
    Too much/too little = lotta BS? Fair enough. Thumbing through the Hexcel handbook, glass cloth varies between 1 and 2 mils per ounce. The thinner ones tend to be satin and balanced weaves and the thicker ones Leno and off balance plain weave. I looked at cloth from 1 to 18 oz.

    I expect that you used the same resin, plywood, fabric orientation and grain orientation for the peel tests. If not, the peel strength of the resin can vary a lot. No offense, I think you did, but having served a 14 year sentence in QA, I feel obliged to ask. The modulus of the fiber should contribute to the peel strength. The other variable is adhesion to the fiber. PP has a low surface energy and is chemically inert, so PP cloth could act somewhat like peel ply. The silane on the glass allows the resin to adhere, and I don't know how much difference there is between silanes.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    I'll be a test case for both the 300gsm and 200gsm Diolen.

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    So on the price, a word from the distributor, easycomposites.co.uk:

    "... The White [300 gsm] Diolen is in its entirely natural finish whereby the Black [200 gsm] has to go through two extra processes to etch and dye the fibres black; not only does this increase the cost but also, natural Diolen is widely produced and available, whereby the Black Diolen is less common – purely given the economics of producing relatively small quantities, it is unfortunately more expensive."

    This doesn't necessarily resolve my question about why the lighter fabrics cost more than the heavier ones. I found 158 gsm white Diolen in Switzerland that costs more than the black 200 gsm.

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    Default Re: 2-layers of 4oz. Xynole vs. 1-layer 8oz. Diolen

    Also, here's a good picture of the 300 gsm weave...
    http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/#!/f...300g-96cm.html

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