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Thread: Laser adaptations

  1. #1
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    Default Laser adaptations

    I have just said on Rob's thread
    "Drawing Circle"


    "I recently had the house measured for carpets, and the chap was using a laser I would love to be let loose with one of those." regarding a laser.

    Lasers are much more sophisticated today than in my day so due to their limitations they were of little use to us.

    Level and Plumb and that was it, so as ships and boats were built on a declivity (in my case) they were more or less useless.

    Has anyone with the knowledge of the modern lasers any ideas as to how they could be adopted into a situation like that?


    PS Or anything for that manner surely things must have changed in the 25 years since I left that discipline to enable modern lasers to cope with jobs in a more efficient way?






    Last edited by Chippie; 08-29-2018 at 05:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    I use a Leica Laser measuring device in my work, and it is very handy, but I can't see a lot of use for it in boat building, except perhaps to survey a larger boat. It is quite accurate, but it's main value is being able to take longer measurements, especially where it is difficult to get a tape to. i.e. ceilings, across openings etc.

    I also have an older self leveling rotary level, and it would be ideal for marking the water line on a boat as long as you knew where it should start and end. Much easier than an light and a wire.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Seems most small laser levels are only that "LEVELS", i.e. gravity referenced. I recently got a higher end BOSCH 3-axis laser that allows locking the prism and so one is able to project a line/plane where ever one wants. If you want to connect two points on a plane(wall) it is a piece of cake. If however you wanted to find the intersection of a 2D plane with some random thing complex shape you would need to fiddle and create/understand the reference points and set-up/mount the BOSCH just so but when you get it all lined up . . . . VOILA!
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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    They can be handy on power tools, to tell you where the thing is going to hit the wood.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    laser levels (level is somewhat a misnomer, you can just project a plane of light) are really nice for laying out forms on a strongback - align one laser with the center line of the strongback, another with the waterline.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by George Ray View Post
    Seems most small laser levels are only that "LEVELS", i.e. gravity referenced. I recently got a higher end BOSCH 3-axis laser that allows locking the prism and so one is able to project a line/plane where ever one wants. If you want to connect two points on a plane(wall) it is a piece of cake. If however you wanted to find the intersection of a 2D plane with some random thing complex shape you would need to fiddle and create/understand the reference points and set-up/mount the BOSCH just so but when you get it all lined up . . . . VOILA!
    The lasers I encountered were self levelling, but you indicate that there are ones where you can tilt out of vertical?

    If that be so then as you say "would need to fiddle and create" so although I could now tackle that problem but it would be tantamount to trying to hold a spirit level, level standing up in a hammock.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ski-Patroller View Post
    I use a Leica Laser measuring device in my work, and it is very handy, but I can't see a lot of use for it in boat building, except perhaps to survey a larger boat. It is quite accurate, but it's main value is being able to take longer measurements, especially where it is difficult to get a tape to. i.e. ceilings, across openings etc.

    I also have an older self leveling rotary level, and it would be ideal for marking the water line on a boat as long as you knew where it should start and end. Much easier than an light and a wire.
    Assuming the boat is on the Quay the biggest problem then is the setting up of the boat, a simple task really, and go round it with a water level.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Ski-Patroller View Post
    I use a Leica Laser measuring device in my work, and it is very handy, but I can't see a lot of use for it in boat building, except perhaps to survey a larger boat. It is quite accurate, but it's main value is being able to take longer measurements, especially where it is difficult to get a tape to. i.e. ceilings, across openings etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ski-Patroller View Post

    I also have an older self leveling rotary level, and it would be ideal for marking the water line on a boat as long as you knew where it should start and end. Much easier than an light and a wire.


    Assuming the boat is on the Quay the biggest problem then is the setting up of the boat, a simple task really, and go round it with a water level.
    In most cases the placing of the laser far enough back was the problem with scaffolding support shores an a myriad of other obstructions.

    In actual fact I think we are heading toward identifying the solution to this particular problem, but I'll let the Thread run a little longer in case our Naval Architects can put us out of our miseries.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    A laser would very useful in the construction of a new boat, particularly larger boats. Just for starters; A laser could be used to help setup the keel and stem. Then mold setup in the begining. Help install frames vertically and square to the center line at bulkheads. Installation of bulkheads, decks, cabins and tops, interior framing, center line alignment, deck planking and marking the water line.
    Last edited by navydog; 08-30-2018 at 08:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    A laser would very useful in the construction of a new boat, particularly larger boats. Just for starters; A laser could be used to help setup the keel and stem. Then mold setup in the begining. Help install frames vertically and square to the center line at bulkheads. Installation of bulkheads, decks, cabins and tops, interior framing, center line alignment, deck planking and marking the water line.
    That may be so where the boat is on a level building berth that was explained in the original post.

    Also bear in mind, that as light doesn't go around corners, and the erection of items progresses the ability to beam around becomes harder.

    The stem and keel present no problem that I encountered as they only go through the vertical, but that's about it.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Vertical center lines and water lines on molds would be fairly easy to shoot. Anything that needs straight lines against the hull like a cabin sole, it would make measuring easy.

    Currently there are laser scanning devices that can measure everything on a plane to create templates and load it into a computer or project the template onto the work material for cutout.
    Last edited by navydog; 08-30-2018 at 09:25 AM.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post


    Assuming the boat is on the Quay the biggest problem then is the setting up of the boat, a simple task really, and go round it with a water level.
    In most cases the placing of the laser far enough back was the problem with scaffolding support shores an a myriad of other obstructions.

    In actual fact I think we are heading toward identifying the solution to this particular problem, but I'll let the Thread run a little longer in case our Naval Architects can put us out of our miseries.

    Obstructions such as scaffolding are not really a problem. Assuming the boat is both level and plumb, one simply starts "wherever", mark the hull at the beginning and as far as the laser sees. Then move the laser to another position where it can both see the last point marked (the backsight) and can project forward along the hull to the furthest point (the foresight). Keep doing this until satisfied. One can even mark foresights and backsights onto the scaffolding, a nearby car, a tree, or whatever stationary object is available. These points off the boat are simply for the convenience (and accuracy) of moving the leveling instrument around the boat. It's basic surveying.

    The problem of using a tilted laser line would be that every time it was moved, one would have to re-establish it's orientation from vertical in two axis. Not a simple task. That's why self leveling is so convenient.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    You are still working in a level situation "Assuming the boat is both level and plumb," read the OP

    Let's think BIG.

    A building berth is 700ft long and the desired declivity for launch purposes 1/2" to the foot That would make a total rise from aft to forward of 350" that's 29'-2"
    so transferring from an initial point is out of the question and every bulkhead at upper deck height is 1/2" aft out of plumb of its frame station for every foot of its height and to complicate matters this will reduce as we come down the deck camber toward the outside shell. Then it gets interesting when we hit the areas where the shell starts to head inward towards the stem and stern, AND up the camber.

    Cut my teeth on this and similar problems so I looked for an easier way out when lasers came along I was sent to access their capability but had to admit they were limited in their use in our situation. Even now at 84yrs I hate to admit defeat.

    I was hoping Peerie Maa (Nick) or mmd being Naval Architects could perhaps have any ideas on that problem with the more modern equipment.??

    If not at least I'll be in August Company.
    Last edited by Chippie; 08-31-2018 at 12:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Chippie they don't have to be level, that seems to be a limitation of your own thinking.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Chippie they don't have to be level, that seems to be a limitation of your own thinking.
    Eh! My problem was that they WEREN'T level.

    They couldn't be level they had to slide down a slope see
    Last edited by Chippie; 08-30-2018 at 01:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    I have a Spectra Physics rotating laser level. Ace bit of kit. Not in the visible spectrum, so one has to use a RX unit to mark the target. I once checked it on a site where I was leveling waterfalls (as one does..) and it had a vertical spread at over 100mtrs of about 2mm. Only prob, it stopped talking to me last year.. not sure if it is the emmiter or the receiver and asking SP didn't get an answer.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew2 View Post
    I have a Spectra Physics rotating laser level. Ace bit of kit. Not in the visible spectrum, so one has to use a RX unit to mark the target. I once checked it on a site where I was leveling waterfalls (as one does..) and it had a vertical spread at over 100mtrs of about 2mm. Only prob, it stopped talking to me last year.. not sure if it is the emmiter or the receiver and asking SP didn't get an answer.
    If it is the infrared you might be able to see the emitter using a digital (phone) camera - works on TV remotes and similar.
    Of course if you can't see it on the camera, you are none the wiser.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post


    I was hoping Peerie Maa (Nick) or mmd being Naval Architects could perhaps have any ideas on that problem with the more modern equipment.??

    If not at least I'll be in August Company.
    The last ships we launched off of a declivity berth was in 2001. All of the subs we build are on the level and launched with a shiplift. We do use lasers and other optical tooling to ensure that the units are level upright and in line with the rest of the hull though. That includes measurements to check the circuklarity of the pressure hull. I am sure that commercial standard kit will be capable of handling declivity, just as dumpy levels did.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Duplicated
    Last edited by Chippie; 08-31-2018 at 11:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The last ships we launched off of a declivity berth was in 2001. All of the subs we build are on the level and launched with a shiplift. We do use lasers and other optical tooling to ensure that the units are level upright and in line with the rest of the hull though. That includes measurements to check the circuklarity of the pressure hull. I am sure that commercial standard kit will be capable of handling declivity, just as dumpy levels did.
    Dumpy levels cannot handle declivity in one "cast" they have to be reset at intervals working up or down the Berth. that would take about 6 "casts" at the 700ft example I gave.

    "you take the reading where the central or stadial cross hairs meet, to the nearest centimetre. "taken from the link below. So we have a built error already before plate is laid

    As its name suggests it is a levelling instrument.


    So, no you are wrong Nick sorry.


    Why not say you don't know.

    Let us approach this differently say the bottom shell has been laid to the required declivity the a bulkhead is placed atop onto its frame station to plumb that bulkhead it has to lie aft at a distance of 1/2" to every foot of height. So the top of 50ft bulkhead would lie 25" abaft of it's frame station at the bottom shell.

    So my question is have we got a modern laser that can be set up that can pan around the plain that bulkhead takes up.

    If so we set the laser say 6" abaft or for'd and start it rotating working over the bulkhead top with a rule the light will hit the 6" mark at ANY point when the bulkhead is right, at the same time it will produce a line 6" from the base at the bottom shell.

    https://www.bing.com/search?q=dumpy+...&setlang=en-GB
    Last edited by Chippie; 08-31-2018 at 11:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    The laser equipment today can measure the inside of the hull on any plane and send the exact dimensions to a laser cutter to fabricate the part.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    Let us approach this differently say the bottom shell has been laid to the required declivity the a bulkhead is placed atop onto its frame station to plumb that bulkhead it has to lie aft at a distance of 1/2" to every foot of height. So the top of 50ft bulkhead would lie 25" abaft of it's frame station at the bottom shell.

    So my question is have we got a modern laser that can be set up that can pan around the plain that bulkhead takes up.

    If so we set the laser say 6" abaft or for'd and start it rotating working over the bulkhead top with a rule the light will hit the 6" mark at ANY point when the bulkhead is right, at the same time it will produce a line 6" from the base at the bottom shell.
    Definitely for setting a declivity.

    However I expect that no shipyard sets the bulkheads on the bottom alone on the build berth any more. Bulkheads are built into berth units or blocks, which can be built level and plumb before being taken to the build line.
    This is the bow unit of Albion being transported from the Assembly shed on the level across the berth apron and down to align with the rest of the hull.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    That does tackle the declivity i
    Last edited by Chippie; 09-01-2018 at 04:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    That does tackle the declivity issue which was the "easy" bit for us, as we only used water levels/dumpy split sights, none of which were subject to the wind which was problematic when trying to plumb anything.

    The only laser I am familiar with was in the 60's and panned around level and when the "cap was removed threw a
    static line vertically upward.

    Now thanks to Nick we have solved the declivity now what we need is something that will revolve around producing a tilted vertical plane square to that line.

    I am familiar with the prefab construction Nick having been involved it's introduction in the 50's and modifying and development in the following years.


    The problem I present is somewhere someone would appreciate a laser that can pan around an inclined plane and also pan around a vertical plane square to it even today.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Tried to delete the first one.

    Editing doesn't always work for me?

    Yippie.
    Last edited by Chippie; 09-01-2018 at 04:12 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations





    PR 300-HV2S

    Robust outdoor dual-grade rotating laser for horizontal,
    vertical
    and dual-grade slope applications such as setting out inclined planes in two axes


    • Accuracy: 0.5 mm at 10 m
    • Self-levelling range at room temperature: +/-5
    • Self-levelling time: 10 s




    If I'm reading rightly this is the one Nick indicates and ​may do both?


    Only problem then would be
    Self-levelling range at room temperature: +/-5 we hit well below that mark.

    Last edited by Chippie; 09-01-2018 at 07:09 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Chippie you might be interested in this video: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...tgJlqmvGoBecrg

    Skip to 1:30 min mark
    Last edited by navydog; 09-01-2018 at 08:05 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Chippie View Post
    ...If I'm reading rightly this is the one Nick indicates and ​may do both?...
    I suspect that the carpet bod would have been using something like this.
    https://shop.bosch-professional.com/...RoC4YsQAvD_BwE

    Good for measuring rooms - useless as a level.
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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Chippie you might be interested in this video: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...tgJlqmvGoBecrg

    Skip to 1:30 min mark
    Thanks navydog watched that and there was nothing gained unfortunately.

    Excepting a reminder of how many "suits" were in our industry after privatisation, gear straight out of the box and not a mark on it.


    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    Yes he was and you're right.

    When I made that remark about been let loose I had another job in mind that hs often been touched on when Nick and I meet on the forum.

    Nick?

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Stop being coy, Chippie. It'd save everybody a lot of time if you'd just come out and ask what it is you want to know instead of making folks play guessing games.
    Last edited by Jim Ledger; 09-01-2018 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Currently lasers are in use by major ship builders that can scan a whole ship and convert it to cadd files for use. Chippies question is meaningless beyond his first post.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Ledger View Post
    Stop being coy, Chippie. It'd save everybody a lot of time if you'd just come out and ask what it is you want to know instead of making folks play guessing games.
    Now Jim that's rich coming from you.

    We have waited patiently for 10yrs for you to reach a conclusion.

    My question was toward Nick to I'm sure will know when prompted remember our discussions.

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    On LASERS, I've used a Criterion system to do watershed studies.
    Along with a precise survey grade GPS you can:

    From one location, acquire your position to sub CM accuracy, then collect data from all surrounding trees and Geo features, range and height, base to top.
    From these data, sent to a GIS package a whole map can be generated, Trees species, size, locations of all features etc.

    Accurate tilt sensors and mag field sensor make the angular calculations very accurately.

    So the technology is there to act as a clivity level.
    PaulF

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    Currently lasers are in use by major ship builders that can scan a whole ship and convert it to cadd files for use. Chippies question is meaningless beyond his first post.
    I can only surmise that you have never had to work on a declivity perhaps this would interest you ---https://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=98226

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    Default Re: Laser adaptations

    Quote Originally Posted by paulf View Post
    On LASERS, I've used a Criterion system to do watershed studies.
    Along with a precise survey grade GPS you can:

    From one location, acquire your position to sub CM accuracy, then collect data from all surrounding trees and Geo features, range and height, base to top.
    From these data, sent to a GIS package a whole map can be generated, Trees species, size, locations of all features etc.

    Accurate tilt sensors and mag field sensor make the angular calculations very accurately.

    So the technology is there to act as a clivity level.
    So at last there I someone that appreciates there is a problem applying laser technology to the problem I had.

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