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Thread: Simple and easy build and sail

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    Both the Weekender and the Sharpie I built were flat bottomed, so I think this time around something with multi chines or round would be more to my liking. I love doing the strip construction like for my canoes but for this I'm thinking more simple and quick. I want to build it in my shop and be ready for spring.

    I'm hoping to go through all the post later and really look at each idea. I'm narrowing things down in my head, been a lot of help here giving me options. Not sure I want to spend $200 or $300 for plans but you never know.

    Chad
    Many designs are very extravagant with their use of materials. Flo-mo has shown how the Pooduck skiff could be built from 3 sheets of ply. I don’t think you will get more boat from the same material. See post ten of http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...t-Ply-sailboat

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    I seem to have stirred a few of you up.So heres a bit more to think about.I stand by my recommendation of the Streaker for Chad's original request;re tink's comments about size of sailor and resale value-I think Chad is probably within the range of suitable size and having built a handful of boats he ought to have the ability to complete the boat even if it does turn out a pound or two above minimum weight.I doubt he will be racing it and the UK scenario of boats changing hands for less than the value of their parts is hardly a new thing.I remember in the seventies that almost every club would have a handful of boats that their owners had home built.Haven't seen any home built boats racing in a very long time,possibly the sailors don't have the time or the skill.

    Jack Holt was a prolific and versatile designer and at least one poster to this thread admits to having not heard of any of his designs other than the Mirror.Very few of his designs were pure racing boats,they were all round boats that could be raced and could also be used for picnics or cruising.The Mirror was intended as a simple light boat for general use and I remember the advertising of the time showing one as a fishing dinghy and the book about the voyage of Jack de Crow shows what can be done.If there were a simple way to get a Mirror built in North America at the present time it would be ideal for Chad,but given the realities of buying a kit or plans I didn't recommend it.The Enterprise was commissioned by another newspaper as a family boat for home construction and as part of the launch publicity,Bruce Banks and his wife,in company with at least one other boat sailed over to France one day.The Heron was conceived as a light (for it's time) boat that could be home built and cartopped on the small British cars of the post-war era and was related in shape to the larger and heavier GP-for General Purpose-14.Four all round designs which can be cruised or raced and all have the assurance of adequate built in buoyancy.All designs that have many thousands of examples in use and the youngest of which is well over fifty years old.

    I have learned something from this thread and that is the existence of the pretty little Viola.It seems to be another excellent candidate for Chad's shortlist and would meet his requirements.The OK has long been one of the dinghies I admire,but I fear the height of the boom and the size of the cockpit might be a bit too extreme.

    The more bombastic defenders of the boat carrying a lug rig and supplies for a month have amused me no small amount.I expect they can identify which of those attributes is irrelevant to this thread.I am hoping for a bit more information about the way in which the lug rig is so quick to rig.I will admit to only a very limited amount of experience with the type and it took me longer to lace the sail to the yard and get the tension right than it takes me to completely rig a bermudan racing dinghy with a spinnaker chute.What am I missing?It gets even better when one of the proponents of the rig-remember how quickly the rig can be struck?Well he goes and fits brails to the thing and drags several yards of rope through the air all the time.Something doesn't compute.I have tried to avoid mention of tacking angle too,but the temptation was too great and it sneaked in.

    Waiting for incoming!

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I seem to have stirred a few of you up.So heres a bit more to think about.I stand by my recommendation of the Streaker for Chad's original request;re tink's comments about size of sailor and resale value-I think Chad is probably within the range of suitable size and having built a handful of boats he ought to have the ability to complete the boat even if it does turn out a pound or two above minimum weight.I doubt he will be racing it and the UK scenario of boats changing hands for less than the value of their parts is hardly a new thing.I remember in the seventies that almost every club would have a handful of boats that their owners had home built.Haven't seen any home built boats racing in a very long time,possibly the sailors don't have the time or the skill.

    Jack Holt was a prolific and versatile designer and at least one poster to this thread admits to having not heard of any of his designs other than the Mirror.Very few of his designs were pure racing boats,they were all round boats that could be raced and could also be used for picnics or cruising.The Mirror was intended as a simple light boat for general use and I remember the advertising of the time showing one as a fishing dinghy and the book about the voyage of Jack de Crow shows what can be done.If there were a simple way to get a Mirror built in North America at the present time it would be ideal for Chad,but given the realities of buying a kit or plans I didn't recommend it.The Enterprise was commissioned by another newspaper as a family boat for home construction and as part of the launch publicity,Bruce Banks and his wife,in company with at least one other boat sailed over to France one day.The Heron was conceived as a light (for it's time) boat that could be home built and cartopped on the small British cars of the post-war era and was related in shape to the larger and heavier GP-for General Purpose-14.Four all round designs which can be cruised or raced and all have the assurance of adequate built in buoyancy.All designs that have many thousands of examples in use and the youngest of which is well over fifty years old.

    I have learned something from this thread and that is the existence of the pretty little Viola.It seems to be another excellent candidate for Chad's shortlist and would meet his requirements.The OK has long been one of the dinghies I admire,but I fear the height of the boom and the size of the cockpit might be a bit too extreme.

    The more bombastic defenders of the boat carrying a lug rig and supplies for a month have amused me no small amount.I expect they can identify which of those attributes is irrelevant to this thread.I am hoping for a bit more information about the way in which the lug rig is so quick to rig.I will admit to only a very limited amount of experience with the type and it took me longer to lace the sail to the yard and get the tension right than it takes me to completely rig a bermudan racing dinghy with a spinnaker chute.What am I missing?It gets even better when one of the proponents of the rig-remember how quickly the rig can be struck?Well he goes and fits brails to the thing and drags several yards of rope through the air all the time.Something doesn't compute.I have tried to avoid mention of tacking angle too,but the temptation was too great and it sneaked in.

    Waiting for incoming!
    Seriously, you take the lacing off the yard every time you unrig? No wonder you don't like the lug rig, you seem to be using it wrong. Try leaving the sail on the yard and tying up the whole works, lug, boom, sail, and sheet.

    I've seen James McMullen unrig Rowan in about 15 seconds, and raise the mast and rig again in about the same time. That's a valuable attribute for a sail and oar cruiser, because if you have to leave the mast up while you're rowing, that's a lot of windage. I've only built boats with jib-headed sails myself because it's what I'm used to and I value windward performance more than being able to get the sail and mast down in 15 seconds, but I understand the attraction for some uses. I don't think it fits Chad's needs, which is why I didn't recommend he build anything with a lug or sprit rig.

    Michael Storer is about the only designer who has tested the lug rig against the usual racing rigs, and watching his vids convinced me that the lug rig was slower to windward and faster on the reaches. He endorses the use of a Laser sail on the Goat Island Skiff, which is what I recommended to Chad. Storer's Viola design is offered with either the lug rig or the fathead rig shown in the pictures on this thread. The owner of the first Viola says the fathead rig is faster even when reaching. Still, for some uses the lug rig will be more practical. However, that sail will be much more expensive than a Laser practice sail, which you can get for under $150.

    I like the Streaker a lot, and I'm a great admirer of Jack Holt. I would not care to sail it with two people aboard, but then, you probably have, and can tell us what that's like. As for the Mirror, it's not just the difficulty of getting plans, Chad doesn't want a bow transom.

  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I seem to have stirred a few of you up.So heres a bit more to think about.I stand by my recommendation of the Streaker for Chad's original request;re tink's comments about size of sailor and resale value-I think Chad is probably within the range of suitable size and having built a handful of boats he ought to have the ability to complete the boat even if it does turn out a pound or two above minimum weight.I doubt he will be racing it and the UK scenario of boats changing hands for less than the value of their parts is hardly a new thing.I remember in the seventies that almost every club would have a handful of boats that their owners had home built.Haven't seen any home built boats racing in a very long time,possibly the sailors don't have the time or the skill.

    Jack Holt was a prolific and versatile designer and at least one poster to this thread admits to having not heard of any of his designs other than the Mirror.Very few of his designs were pure racing boats,they were all round boats that could be raced and could also be used for picnics or cruising.The Mirror was intended as a simple light boat for general use and I remember the advertising of the time showing one as a fishing dinghy and the book about the voyage of Jack de Crow shows what can be done.If there were a simple way to get a Mirror built in North America at the present time it would be ideal for Chad,but given the realities of buying a kit or plans I didn't recommend it.The Enterprise was commissioned by another newspaper as a family boat for home construction and as part of the launch publicity,Bruce Banks and his wife,in company with at least one other boat sailed over to France one day.The Heron was conceived as a light (for it's time) boat that could be home built and cartopped on the small British cars of the post-war era and was related in shape to the larger and heavier GP-for General Purpose-14.Four all round designs which can be cruised or raced and all have the assurance of adequate built in buoyancy.All designs that have many thousands of examples in use and the youngest of which is well over fifty years old.

    I have learned something from this thread and that is the existence of the pretty little Viola.It seems to be another excellent candidate for Chad's shortlist and would meet his requirements.The OK has long been one of the dinghies I admire,but I fear the height of the boom and the size of the cockpit might be a bit too extreme.

    The more bombastic defenders of the boat carrying a lug rig and supplies for a month have amused me no small amount.I expect they can identify which of those attributes is irrelevant to this thread.I am hoping for a bit more information about the way in which the lug rig is so quick to rig.I will admit to only a very limited amount of experience with the type and it took me longer to lace the sail to the yard and get the tension right than it takes me to completely rig a bermudan racing dinghy with a spinnaker chute.What am I missing?It gets even better when one of the proponents of the rig-remember how quickly the rig can be struck?Well he goes and fits brails to the thing and drags several yards of rope through the air all the time.Something doesn't compute.I have tried to avoid mention of tacking angle too,but the temptation was too great and it sneaked in.

    Waiting for incoming!


    I’m a massive fan of the Streaker, a wooden one is very economical and glorious boat to sail for the lighter crew. It is not a simple boat to build. Jack Holt designed it because his Solo was getting too heavy, it was his last commercial design. He was therefore using his lifetime of experience to make it light and the design is sophisticated to get it down to weight. Lots of parts and detail enable the a thin ply shell to be given stiffness to perform as well as it does and the boats to have longevity. As I said though it is not a simple build.

    Here are a few pictures to illustrate



    To my mind the Viola would be considerably simpler, quicker and cheaper build. The Viola is lighter than the Streaker and as the speed is claimed to be similar to a Laser, faster.The Viola is easy to car-top, and comes up drier after a capsize. She is versatile with three rig options and provided herself as a raid boat.

    Please remember I love my Streaker, wouldn’t entertain building one though


    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa
    Last edited by tink; 08-17-2018 at 04:06 PM.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Seriously, you take the lacing off the yard every time you unrig? No wonder you don't like the lug rig, you seem to be using it wrong. Try leaving the sail on the yard and tying up the whole works, lug, boom, sail, and sheet.

    I've seen James McMullen unrig Rowan in about 15 seconds, and raise the mast and rig again in about the same time. That's a valuable attribute for a sail and oar cruiser, because if you have to leave the mast up while you're rowing, that's a lot of windage. I've only built boats with jib-headed sails myself because it's what I'm used to and I value windward performance more than being able to get the sail and mast down in 15 seconds, but I understand the attraction for some uses. I don't think it fits Chad's needs, which is why I didn't recommend he build anything with a lug or sprit rig.

    Michael Storer is about the only designer who has tested the lug rig against the usual racing rigs, and watching his vids convinced me that the lug rig was slower to windward and faster on the reaches. He endorses the use of a Laser sail on the Goat Island Skiff, which is what I recommended to Chad. Storer's Viola design is offered with either the lug rig or the fathead rig shown in the pictures on this thread. The owner of the first Viola says the fathead rig is faster even when reaching. Still, for some uses the lug rig will be more practical. However, that sail will be much more expensive than a Laser practice sail, which you can get for under $150.

    I like the Streaker a lot, and I'm a great admirer of Jack Holt. I would not care to sail it with two people aboard, but then, you probably have, and can tell us what that's like. As for the Mirror, it's not just the difficulty of getting plans, Chad doesn't want a bow transom.
    Lots of fair points. Not a fan of the Laser rig, though contained within the rig it is very highly stressed. The Laser has low freeboard and boom and there will be a limited number of designs it can physically fit without major modifications or replacement of the lower mast. A proper 8mm luff rope and track gives a massive range of sails to pick from and quick to rig.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    You need to look at the whole picture; lug is great when your priorities are getting things up and down in a hurry, reefing easily, no shrouds and relatively short spars with a rig that can get struck for rowing. There is no lacing involved with the lug except the first day. The sail gets laced ( or in my case tucked into a sleeve) on the yard, same with the boom. It all lives in a long slippery sail bag. So you set up the mast, hook the yard on the traveler on the mast ( one way of rigging) hook the tack or the boom if you have one on the down haul and hoist away. All the racing dinghies I have had needed feeding the sail up the mast and were not set up to reef. Mast typically was not designed to be struck underway.
    Ben Fuller
    Ran Tan, Liten Kuhling, Tipsy, Tippy, Josef W., Merry Mouth, Imp, Macavity, Look Far, Flash and a quiver of other 'yaks.
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Lots of fair points. Not a fan of the Laser rig, though contained within the rig it is very highly stressed. The Laser has low freeboard and boom and there will be a limited number of designs it can physically fit without major modifications or replacement of the lower mast. A proper 8mm luff rope and track gives a massive range of sails to pick from and quick to rig.
    Storer recommends using a wooden mast with a Laser sail. That gives you lots of options about how high the boom is, but you still have the Iwo Jima mast raising to deal with. Price of the sail from these folks is hard to resist, though: http://www.intensitysails.com/saforlara47.html

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I seem to have stirred a few of you up.
    Do you think that may be because you admit:

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    to only a very limited amount of experience with the type [lugsails]
    but then, despite your self-professed ignorance, do your best to ridicule comments posted by someone with thousands of miles sailing lug rigs? If you ease up on the hostility just a little, you might learn something--even from me.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Jack Holt was a prolific and versatile designer and at least one poster to this thread admits to having not heard of any of his designs other than the Mirror.
    Guilty as charged. That's an offense? Holt's designs do not have much of a presence on the Great Lakes of the U.S. Actually I've heard of the Enterprise as well, but didn't know it was his design, and have never seen one. I've never said one bad thing about Holt or his designs. I guess you're the one who's all stirred up now, eh? And over nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I have learned something from this thread and that is the existence of the pretty little Viola.
    You've now also learned just a little bit about the lug rig if you read johnw and Ben Fuller's posts. It's telling that you've had so little experience with them that you didn't even know the sail is not unlaced from the yard every time you rig it. Do you better understand its appeal now that this has been explained to you?

    I notice that you decided not to tell me how many control lines your Bermuda rig uses, or how many blocks you need, or how easy it is to reef. I'd actually be very interested in comparisons. But you'd rather call me "bombastic" than engage in discussion. That's too bad. I might have learned something, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    The more bombastic defenders of the boat carrying a lug rig and supplies for a month have amused me no small amount.I expect they can identify which of those attributes is irrelevant to this thread.
    Again, why so confrontational? As to relevance, doesn't it seem like ballast and a month's supplies might be relevant to the OP, who specifically described a desire for

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    something small (up to 2 adults and/or maybe 1 adult and 2 kids) or maybe just a solo boat. I definitely want less strings to pull and easy to set up and launch and all that good stuff.
    Carrying one adult and a month's gear might be roughly equivalent to two adults, don't you think? So why do you deem it irrelevant and "bombastic?" And talking about how heavily loaded my lug-rigged boat was while still able to cover 10 miles in 80 minutes seems perfectly relevant to disputing your snide "a boat that can hardly get out of its own way" comment about lug-rigged boats.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    It gets even better when one of the proponents of the rig-remember how quickly the rig can be struck?Well he goes and fits brails to the thing and drags several yards of rope through the air all the time.Something doesn't compute.
    John, why so hostile to someone else's way of doing things, on a rig you're almost completely ignorant about? You're leaping to conclusions, anyway. It's quite simple to brail a boomless lugsail without a brailing line at all--just walk forward to the mast, rolling the sail as you go, and secure it with a slippery hitch tied in the end of the sheet. It's quite handy to be able to do this at times. Not "all the time." No "dragging several yards of rope through the air."

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I have tried to avoid mention of tacking angle too,but the temptation was too great and it sneaked in.
    I don't know--I've never measured it. Maybe around 100 degrees? It's not a strength of the lug rig, nor am I the greatest sailor. I've never had the opportunity (nor the interest, frankly) to hone my skills by racing. I suspect a good sailor could do better than I can. But for my purposes, a lug rig gets to windward well enough, even when reefed. It doesn't do so well double-reefed, and can hardly beat a beam reach when triple-reefed.

    But I can beat a lot of boats dead to windward (if that were of any interest to me) by dropping the rig and rowing. That was a favorite tactic of smugglers escaping revenue cutters. It still works.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Waiting for incoming!
    Why do you want to make a war of this, John? I don't. I'd rather just have an intelligent discussion where we learn from each other's experience.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 08-17-2018 at 04:56 PM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Storer recommends using a wooden mast with a Laser sail. That gives you lots of options about how high the boom is, but you still have the Iwo Jima mast raising to deal with. Price of the sail from these folks is hard to resist, though: http://www.intensitysails.com/saforlara47.html
    Not sure how a wooden mast would hold up with 15:1 XD vang and 4:1 Cunningham which cost a fortune. Probably the wooden mast wouldn’t need to go to that extreme. Not an experiment I would undertake.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    This thread had the potential, for me, to be one of the most interesting EVER. I am fascinated by the sailboat design for one to two people, built simply from the minimum amount of material.

    The hull design is the complex part, it is quite easy to change what rig is used with a slight modification to the design. So can we park the lug rig debating, or start a new thread, and focus on the wonderful challenge set in the OP

    my four favourites which change order constantly are
    Pooduck Skiff
    Viola 14
    and though flat bottom which CS does want
    GIS
    Echo Bay Dory Skiff
    I would actually want something size wise half way between the GIS & EBDS

    There are plenty within the Selway Fisher catalogue that would also fit the bill

    http://www.selway-fisher.com/GPDinghyup13.htm

    I have to admit though here in the U.K. the due to abundance of old ‘fix me up’ boats vs material costs for a self build I will be unlikely to build anything we discuss, perhaps the Viola because she has no equivalent second hand boat.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    Not sure how a wooden mast would hold up with 15:1 XD vang and 4:1 Cunningham which cost a fortune. Probably the wooden mast wouldn’t need to go to that extreme. Not an experiment I would undertake.
    Well, a Douglas fir mast would certainly handle that, but that would be heavy, and I'm not convinced that you need a 15:1 vang in a boat that won't be competing in one-design racing.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    GIS
    Echo Bay Dory Skiff
    I would actually want something size wise half way between the GIS & EBDS
    That's why there is the Caravelle at 14'4"
    Clinton B. Chase
    Portland, Maine

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Clinton B Chase View Post
    That's why there is the Caravelle at 14'4"
    Nice, a bit narrow and rowing focus for me personally.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Goat Island Yardstick from the UK - 1119
    Around that of an OK dinghy. Only raced for a season at a club in Portsmouth. They were still learning the boat so there is probably room for improvement

    Beth Sailing Canoe Yardstick from Canada - 96
    Again from a season of racing, so averaged over a fair few races
    This is even more interesting because not only is it a lug rig, but it is a yawl.

    OK ... I want to put in three demonstration videos of real lug use all on the same type of boat.

    1/ Racing against Lasers and Fireballs in a regular club race ... just about real time
    2/ Same boat doing a cruise down the Italian Coast ... I chose the section where Enrico comes into Genoa - as that has a nice resonance for racing types.
    3/ Simon's Goat Island Skiff covering lots of ground with three adults and two kids aboard.

    But be aware that to get this type of performance ... don't just look at the rig. The foils in particular have to be right ... and just like regular racing dinghies (which is my background) the boats that have the spars and sails set up best do a lot better.

    If interested to see a full race in real time ... Singlehanded Goat Island Skiff flat bottomed with lug rig does a race against Lasers and Fireballs.

    Well mixing it up with the Lasers which look like they are being reasonably well sailed. Thanks to Enrico Franconi for the clip.

    Again the boat is a whole package - treat a lug rig boat like a modern dinghy and you get pretty much the same performance.



    Lightness, Sail/spar interaction, Good foils and sorted systems (not that there are many systems - outhaul and downhaul - which keeps a huge amount of expense out.

    I dropped out of fast dinghy racing when the shroud tension systems for 505s and Australian Sharpies got up to 700bucks (and that was some time ago) - one system on a system heavy boat and I started being serious about simple boats that were well sorted.

    Best wishes
    MIK

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Now I want to provide another clip ... this is also Enrico Franconi - but this time doing his progressive tour down the coast of Italy in the same boat he was racing against the Lasers. He's done about 5 of these videos which show him making progress sailing and rowing and on occasion sleeping aboard the boat.



    Races with Lasers ... and you can cook dinner on board next weekend. This is the point that some are making. So where does a hot racing dinghy stand? Rowing? Cruising (don't drag the foam sandwich over any rocks.

    Best wishes
    MIK

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    OK ... another example, here is SimonLew sailing his GIS in Florida. Same boat that was razzing in amongst the Lasers.

    In this case three adults and two kids and still zooting along - daytrips to actually go somewhere are very possible and quite enjoyable.

    Three adults and two kids .. and try to get any sort of decent performance out of a singlehand race dinghy

    Just go somewhere around the middle to see how the boat is performing very nicely indeed with all the extra bods.



    So ... seeing that a flat bottomed Goat Island Skiff can pace it with Lasers around a regular racecourse in normal conditions ... then this means a great deal of benefit of the doubt for bigger and heavier lugged rig boats which might offer substantial seakeeping over a racing dinghy.

    Which is something the Goat Island Skiff becomes when it has four adults in it. But some are set up with more weight from the get go - and they definitely don't need to be slouches.

    If the rig and optimisation of foils etc mean one lug rig can perform with Lasers .. then it means that equally well set up ones on boats with good foils will also be in the same efficiency area for their displacement to length ... even though there are not many sailing dinghies that relate to that particular parameter.

    But put a lug on a light well set up boat ... and you are not giving away much at all.

    And then the boat has all sorts of capability that a racing dinghy can only dream about.

    Best wishes to all
    MIK

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Howdy ... last one.

    Just so there is some sense of where PY numbers came from and how they were adjusted.

    Here are links to the articles by the people doing a season of racing at local clubs in lug rigged boats against conventionally rigged boats.

    Beth Sailing Canoe with the Balance lug yawl Rig.



    And the Goat Island Skiff being club raced in Portsmouth UK. It is quite nice because it goes through a whole bunch of the issues in transitioning from conventional yachts to lug rigged dinghies



    And you have seen Enrico's live video.

    Best wishes
    MIK

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    By all means, I completely agree 100%. No one disagreed with you or Meacham. I don't own any boat right now that has a lug rig. I have a boat with a bermuda rig, a boat with a lateen, and a boat with a leg-o-mutton. I'm in the middle of a boat shuffle right now and I barely have any wood boats at the moment. The Laser is one of my most favorite boats I have ever owned (sold it, regret it-- but kept the rig to put in a trad boat down the road). Two hours before you wrote post 61 I referenced a boat with a very modern sail plan.

    My first post in this thread was actually about how the lug is more complicated than it looks. Did that go unnoticed?

    But the tone went to being immediately and unfortunately abrasive and came swinging out of left-field in a way that was unexpected and did not fit the initial OP's request or the subsequent discussion. No one was taking a poop on high performance modern rigs but the reaction was like someone did. I find it curious as to what elicited the strong reaction, and that's why I asked.

    Maybe I missed something.
    My question "But if as you agree, the Streaker would be faster, then how can it be said that the lugsails "go like smoke" or "go like hell"? Don't those terms imply superior speed?" wasn't meant to sound highly abrasive, nor was it meant to imply that anyone was taking a poop at anything. It was just that since the thread is basically asking for objective information, it seems reasonable to ask for information when it was implied that the lug was faster than the average rig, which (as Google confirms) is a common meaning of those expressions.

    That doesn't mean that the lug is a bad or slow rig in any way, nor does it mean that faster rigs are better. It's just that arguably we should try to recognise that each type has its strengths and weaknesses, and to give some sort of vaguely objective information about them rather than saying something that may seem to indicate that they are an extremely fast rig.

    I bet people would have called me on it if I'd said "get a carbon masted high-aspect composite racing rig, people give 'em away" or "build an International Canoe, they're nice and stable" although both those are subjectively true.
    Last edited by Chris249; 08-19-2018 at 09:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Boatmik View Post
    Howdy ... last one.

    Just so there is some sense of where PY numbers came from and how they were adjusted.

    Here are links to the articles by the people doing a season of racing at local clubs in lug rigged boats against conventionally rigged boats.

    Beth Sailing Canoe with the Balance lug yawl Rig.



    And the Goat Island Skiff being club raced in Portsmouth UK. It is quite nice because it goes through a whole bunch of the issues in transitioning from conventional yachts to lug rigged dinghies



    And you have seen Enrico's live video.

    Best wishes
    MIK
    Thank you! I'm sure Chad will be along eventually to comment on this, but I get the sense that his desire for a boat that is not flat-bottomed is aesthetic, not performance related. I think he wants to build something different this time.

    But to satisfy my own curiosity, how does the GIS with the Laser sail compare in performance to the one with the lug rig? Is it at all under canvassed? And is there a way to compare the Canadian and European yardstick numbers? If memory serves (which it doesn't always,) the Laser is somewhere around 90 in the Canadian system.

    Edited to add: Should have gone to the link first, the Laser rates 91.1 in the Canadian system. Still interested in how to convert the numbers from the European to the North American system.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    And the award for the most off target thread of 2018 goes to.......

    interesting discussion but how a we have let one gut troll this interesting OP is sad

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    John Garden's version of this is a better boat, but having owned one, I have to add a few caveats.

    This is a small boat for its overall length, and not very stable. I wouldn't put more than about 80 square feet of sail on it, and I came to this conclusion by putting a lot more sail than that on it.

    It is not really a high performance design compared to the other boats that have been mentioned on this thread. It will row better than almost all of them, but I don't get the impression that Chad cares much about that.

    Garden's interpretation of the Swampscott dory skiff:

    87-028-misc18.jpg

    https://store.mysticseaport.org/ship...ory-skiff.html

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    I thought it might be time to see where this thread has moved on to.It didn't surprise me to see that a few of you had made assumptions about my experience with lug rig.It took a long while to lace the sail to the yard ,a fact nobody has denied in any subsequent post,it took as long to lace it to the boom too.Why were we doing it?Well the boat and spars had been painted and varnished over the winter-at no time did I say this was something that happened every time the boat was used.It might be a good idea though as I have had the experience of seeing my neighbour in the dinghy park remove his boat cover and find the mice had turned part of his sail into a nest.

    Obviously we have among us worshippers at the shrine of R D Culler and his fellow travellers in the anti-modernism camp.It appears blocks are an evil and an abomination in some eyes,I just use what does the job.I have sailed a bermuda rigged dinghy in several races with only the two blocks on the mainsheet,but for better control in a range of conditions,I have quite a number these days and they all serve a purpose.I was wondering whether to refer to the voyages of the intrepid Frank Dye in his Wayfarer,but it doesn't fit the criteria Chad requested in terms of size and you won't get plans;but for a bermuda rigged dinghy that got raced once in a while,he certainly got around.

    I am glad Boatmik has contributed to this thread as his comment about the importance of good foils is of paramount importance.John Gardner's interpretation of the Swampscott dory skiff looks a bit narrow on the waterline to my eyes and I am sure the comment about it's rowing quality is accurate.Having looked at the illustration of the part built Streaker,I see nothing difficult there,just a few more partial bulkheads than some designs.If Chad was willing to include the gunter rig in the flotilla of boats that don't have 4 sided sails,I might have included the Gull by Ian Proctor (in it's original chined form) and also the Heron.For those of us in the UK it would be a short cut to sailing just to go and look for an elderly Lightning 368 or Supernova thats past its racing peak or one of those used Streakers that have so little value on the racing circuit.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Obviously we have among us worshippers at the shrine of R D Culler and his fellow travellers in the anti-modernism camp.
    Hey, John,

    you disagree with my take on things; I get that. Why the repeated veiled insults and personal animosity? Have I offended you somehow?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    It appears blocks are an evil and an abomination in some eyes
    That's a completely dishonest characterization of my position. Blocks are great. They are also quite expensive. A rig that can minimize their use offers certain advantages--not only financially, but also in terms of simplicity. Which is why I feel obligated to point out that these claims of yours:

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    The simplicity and performance potential [of the Bermuda rig] just eclipsed all the other choices
    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Find a simpler or more efficient rig?[than the Bermuda rig]
    are shown to be quite incorrect. For example, you say:

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I just use what does the job.I have sailed a bermuda rigged dinghy in several races with only the two blocks on the mainsheet,but for better control in a range of conditions,I have quite a number these days and they all serve a purpose.
    The point is, it takes more blocks to do the job for a Bermuda rig than it does for a lug rig. "Quite a number" of blocks compared to two (or perhaps a few more if you really want to tweak a lugsail for top speed). Add in the added complications of tall masts and stays, added control lines like Cunninghams and boom vangs, and it becomes obvious that a Bermuda rig is most decisively more complex than a lug rig. That doesn't make a lug rig better, or a Bermuda rig worse. But it is true. Everything's a trade-off; every rig offers advantages and disadvantages.

    As for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    the anti-modernism camp
    It's flat nonsense to associate proponents of lug rig with anti-modernism. Check out Boatmik's successes with lugsails in combination with modern materials and efficient foils (posted above), or check out the high-aspect battened lugsail (with carbon spars and the yard in a sleeve instead of laced to the sail) that Ben Fuller uses on his Dias-designed Harrier.

    As for me: epoxy construction, fiberglass cloth, Dyneema lines, ratchet block for mainsheet, latex enamel paint, Dacron sail--yep, anti-modernism in action.

    I guess I don't understand why my comments have earned me such contempt from you.

    OP, once again I apologize for taking this thread away from your original intent. To get back to your request for designs to consider, how about:

    The Fitzroy Club Dinghy--14' stitch and glue:

    Fitzroy dinghy.gif



    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 08-19-2018 at 07:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Or maybe the Cegall dinghy, an 11-footer in stitch and glue:

    Cegall dinghy.jpg

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 08-19-2018 at 06:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    It's seems hard to find evidence that a bermudan rig needs any more or less controls than many other rigs IF they are set up to demand the same level of sail shape control. There are some efficient bermudan rigs that use only a few cheap blocks. For example, you have certainly been able to finish top 10 nationally in the world's most popular bermudan dinghy, the world's most popular keelboat and the nation's most popular two-handed dinghy without a single "sophisticated" block or any high-powered cunningham on the cunningham and outhaul, and sometimes not even one on the vang.

    A previous owner took my 15 footer to 4th place in the world titles with a cunningham composed of $30 worth of cheap Riley blocks, some line and a $8 Ronstan cleat. I splurged and changed to a $50 cleat I had in a spares box and I think we now have exactly the same setup as the world champion. The Laser can be similar.

    Here, as a comparison, is the setup of a lugsail racing dinghy;

    Int 12.jpg

    A sistership

    Bonaldo.jpg

    The accompanying rigging guide suggest no less than FIFTY TWO Harken blocks. Yes, 52 blocks in a 12 foot lug rigged dinghy. The boat has, if I recall correctly, dipping lines, a line that adjusts the distance between yard and mast, a powerful vang, an "outhaul" for the yard, a rake adjuster for the yard, a powerful downhaul, expensive stay adjusters, and an outhaul. Despite all this, as Ben says this is actually a very easy boat to rig, at least when stored under a cover with the mast up, and that's easy given the short stick. But then again, I find the Laser very quick to rig in other situations.

    Yes, you can get away with fewer controls - but the same applies with other rigs. I sail a bermudan rig craft that has no blocks at all in the rig. The downhaul and outhaul just lead over grommets. It can do over 20 knots. My closest comparable craft has a bunch of custom-designed roller-bearing blocks and fittings. Same rig design - all that is different is the rules.

    The GIS is a great boat, with a very useful rig. Enrico's blog shows him to be a fascinating guy I would love to sail or climb mountains with. His GIS is also rated the same speed as a 420 and slower than the Lasers. Both 420 and Laser are shorter and older designs and yet it seems in the race in question that most of the Lasers beat the GIS across the line. Incidentally, the identifiable Lasers range from 1976 to 1987 vintage. That means that not one of them was built with a single roller-bearing block or high-stress sail control. None of them had any pulley at all on the downhaul/cunningham eye or outhaul. The closest one I can see (the best ones being a minute ahead by the first mark) still has those original style fittings.

    Yes, the lug has many advantages. So does the bermudan. Surely we cannot compare a simple example of the lug rig with a more complicated version of the bermudan rig. Equally, we cannot compare the lug rig with 52 Harken blocks to the simplest practical bermudan rig as if it proves a general rule.

    I'd argue this is on topic, since it gets directly to the issue of the possible cost and ease of rigging and use of any design in this bracket. As far as I can see, the evidence is that the bermudan rig is quicker upwind and perhaps in most conditions although that would depend on the design. That does NOT, of course, mean it is better per se. I would argue, however, that any claims that it's more highly stressed or more expensive as a type would have to be very highly qualified, at least.

    In noting this, I'm not criticising the GIS or lug rig any more than I am criticising my Laser when I point out it's slower than my Hobie, or that my Subaru Forester is slower than my Subaru Legacy. It's merely a matter of being interested in the compromises, strengths and weaknesses involved in each design, and what they can teach us.
    Last edited by Chris249; 08-20-2018 at 01:09 AM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Chris,

    thanks for that; very interesting indeed (in a "I can't believe that people rig their boats with 50+ blocks!" way; that's a different world for sure). I'm obviously pretty ignorant of the extent racers will go to in order to maximize sail control potential. You mention dipping lines; is the boat rigged with a dipping lug rig, then? Or is it just so the sail can always be on the "good" tack? (Which as I understand it is actually marginally slower). I'd guess it's the latter. Or do they dip the sail to the "bad" tack?

    So, lug rigs can be complicated--that's clear enough. I guess everything gets complicated when racing--it's that arms race aspect of it that, frankly, makes racing very unattractive to me. But that's only a personal preference, not a value judgment. I'm just glad my chosen niche is so much simpler and cheaper!

    I note that the rig you posted photos of is also a stayed rig, which further complicates things. Almost seems like you and I are talking about entirely different things when we use the term "lug rig." Your primary focus continues to be on speed potential; mine is simplicity and economy, and handiness for sail and oar cruising. For those priorities, my gut (and my experience with both rigs) still tells me a lugsail is the better value than a Bermuda rig.

    I wonder if the simplest balance lug (downhaul and sheet) would be more effective (i.e. offer more opportunities for sail shaping) than a similarly restricted Bermuda, thanks to the self-vanging aspect of the rig. What do you think? In other words, does one rig (Bermuda vs. lug) derive greater benefit from added complications and increased sail shaping abilities?

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 08-20-2018 at 01:08 AM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Surely we cannot compare a simple example of the lug rig with a more complicated version of the bermudan rig. Equally, we cannot compare the lug rig with 52 Harken blocks to the simplest practical bermudan rig as if it proves a general rule.
    Chris,

    One last question: do you think a general rule is possible? On balance, leaving out extreme examples, do you have a sense that one rig is more complicated than the other? Or is that an impossible generalization to make?

    Tom
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Having looked at the illustration of the part built Streaker, I see nothing difficult there, just a few more partial bulkheads than some designs.
    Not engaging with the parts of the post that are irrelevant to the thread.

    Lack of difficulty and simplicity are not the same thing, CS is looking for simplicity, the clue is in the tittle of the thread (sorry going down to your level)
    Simplicity will comes from a low part count and as such results in a quick build.

    Two pictures, one is the Pooduck nearing completion the other is Streaker with probably a lot more build hours in her and far from completion. The Streaker is far from simple, great boat, I love mine, but not a simple build.

    There is a New Zealand / Oz boat similar to the Streaker which may be a more simple build (CS said he liked the Streaker) only one a quick search has found is the Zephyr which is round bilge, will keep looking.





    Now the rig, CS does not want a four sided sail, so that leaves a triangular sail.
    The Streaker a simple and controllable sail, my post #67 details it.

    A more simple rig would be a sprit boom as it is self vanging, it is harder reef, has less control of the sail shape and has the boom against the sail on one tack (I think CS said the mast against the boom as an issue to him with the lug rig)







    https://tinkboats.wordpress.com
    http://proasail.blogspot.co.uk
    What I get up to
    https://youtu.be/X9NZEyvpb_Y Streaker dinghy
    https://youtu.be/oni-3rJzxqQ Sail Canoe
    https://youtu.be/eW078PPgJak Proa
    Last edited by tink; 08-20-2018 at 03:10 AM.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    John Garden's version of this is a better boat, but having owned one, I have to add a few caveats.

    This is a small boat for its overall length, and not very stable. I wouldn't put more than about 80 square feet of sail on it, and I came to this conclusion by putting a lot more sail than that on it.

    It is not really a high performance design compared to the other boats that have been mentioned on this thread. It will row better than almost all of them, but I don't get the impression that Chad cares much about that.

    Garden's interpretation of the Swampscott dory skiff:

    87-028-misc18.jpg

    https://store.mysticseaport.org/ship...ory-skiff.html
    Fisher’s Swampscott looks more stable than Garden’s, to me. With a wider bottom. Maybe a better sailer able to carry more sail comfortably, with Garden’s a better rower. With that and Fisher’s being built in stitch’n’glue, lighter weight and easier. I think that makes it better for this thread’s needs. It may have too wide of a flat bottom for CS. It is also 12’ long, another goal of this thread. I agree the longer boats suggested could be better.

    I still think Welsford’s Saturday Night Special, built at the optional 13’11” length would be good option for this build, if CS would go that long. With Marconi rig.

    8426F4CE-F050-42A7-BE9E-A30736A7AC27.gif
    http://www.duckworksbbs.com/product-p/jw-sns.htm
    Last edited by Matt young; 08-20-2018 at 11:12 AM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    This Polish web site has some nice boats, he has worked pare the designs down to the minimum, a twin with a Streaker rig or the 3.8 look interesting
    http://dinghy.pl/

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    The UK Old Gaffers Association commissioned Andrew Wolstenholme NA, to design a CNC cut, easy to build and sail 'all round' dinghy this year. Single chine, stitch and glue.



    Look here for more info:-

    http://www.oga.org.uk/news/oga-dinghy-update-1

    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-20-2018 at 10:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Chris,

    One last question: do you think a general rule is possible? On balance, leaving out extreme examples, do you have a sense that one rig is more complicated than the other? Or is that an impossible generalization to make?

    Tom
    Blimey, this thread took a turn. If i may, my answer to that question would be that the dinghies i have sailed with lug, gunter and bermudian, all had 3 basic lines; a halyard, a vang/downhaul and a sheet. As someone with no interest in racing, i find if you add an outhaul to those, that is as much sail shaping as most people might need. I like the gunter rig for the shorter mast over bermudian and it will lack upwind in comparison, but the overall performance of the balanced lug "for my laid back purpose" wins out, just, over a gunter. It is easy to spend far more than needed on any rig, and i will leave it at that, and the expense to hardcore racers and those with deeper pockets.

  34. #104
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Coquina with a lug. I love the boat set up with lug and mizzen. But I have lately started sailing a glass Wayferer clone sloop rigged, with standing rigging. With my wife, who has certain tasks, we can get in and out in 30 minutes. With our lug rigged boat, maybe ten. Sometimes less if we have used it recently, but we trailer-sail, so I break down some of the rig for driving. . For no reason, I don't have any photos of the boat mizzen-rigged. The sloop-rigged wayfarer (lower case W, since it is a CL16 clone) points pretty well, but the Coquina will point just as well with the mizzen. Maybe even higher, if you have to claw your way into a dock.


    Last edited by davebrown; 08-20-2018 at 12:20 PM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I thought it might be time to see where this thread has moved on to.It didn't surprise me to see that a few of you had made assumptions about my experience with lug rig.It took a long while to lace the sail to the yard ,a fact nobody has denied in any subsequent post,it took as long to lace it to the boom too.Why were we doing it?Well the boat and spars had been painted and varnished over the winter-at no time did I say this was something that happened every time the boat was used.
    You were talking about the setup time for going sailing. If you only have to do this once a season, why would you include it in this statement:

    The more bombastic defenders of the boat carrying a lug rig and supplies for a month have amused me no small amount.I expect they can identify which of those attributes is irrelevant to this thread.I am hoping for a bit more information about the way in which the lug rig is so quick to rig.I will admit to only a very limited amount of experience with the type and it took me longer to lace the sail to the yard and get the tension right than it takes me to completely rig a bermudan racing dinghy with a spinnaker chute.What am I missing?It gets even better when one of the proponents of the rig-remember how quickly the rig can be struck?Well he goes and fits brails to the thing and drags several yards of rope through the air all the time.Something doesn't compute.I have tried to avoid mention of tacking angle too,but the temptation was too great and it sneaked in.
    If you were comparing setup time for going sailing with a Bermudian rig to the setup time for going sailing with a lug rig, why include once-a-season tasks like lacing on the sail? Why not include the time spent varnishing the mast? It would be just as silly. And it's pretty disingenuous to count that as part of the setup time to go sailing in a lug rigged boat, then claim "at no time did I say this was something that happened every time the boat was used." That claim makes it look like you're trying to have it both ways.

    Calling people names like 'bombastic' doesn't help your cause at all. I don't think people are at all upset about the views you've expressed, but they are certainly reacting to the fact that you have treated your interlocutors with contempt.

    Like Chris and Michael Storer, I've raced in classes with Bermudian rigs and every sail control imaginable. I've also sailed boats with gaff, lug, and sprit rigs. I haven't chosen to own boats with traditional rigs, but I certainly understand why people use them.

    As it happens, Chad doesn't want a lug rig, so you don't need to engage in this sort of casuistry to persuade him, so what's the point of doing it? Do you just like sneering at people?

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