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Thread: Simple and easy build and sail

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I bet the Streaker will outsail any of the boats mentioned in almost all conditions.Light to handle ashore and capable of good speed in a blow.The defenders of the lug rig and cat ketch might like to quote a Portsmouth Yardstick for their particular favourite to disprove my assertion.

    There is absolutely no doubt that a racing dinghy will be faster than the sort of roomy daysailer Chad describes himself as wanting.

    The only exception that comes readily to mind is the Goat Island Skiff, which seems able to race on even terms with the Laser, whether using a Laser rig or the larger lug rig.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    John, I don’t disagree with you at all about the streaker being a high performance boat compared to the lug rigged boats that Callsign, Wi-Tom and I sail....I wouldn’t want to have a second person in one, though, and I wouldn’t think of trying to spend a week camp cruising one
    Yep. That sounds about right to me.

    Except that I like John Welsford's definition of "performance"--high performance does not mean "fastest boat" but "most suitable for its intended purpose."

    Tom
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    I completely agree.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Yep. That sounds about right to me.

    Except that I like John Welsford's definition of "performance"--high performance does not mean "fastest boat" but "most suitable for its intended purpose."

    Tom
    I understand that way of defining "performance", but it basically means that almost anything can be called "low performance" or "high performance", and it's also so subjective. If I bodged up some rusty 44 gallon drums and some hardware store 2 x 4 into a temporary pontoon for the bottom of my garden and it floated for a day as intended, then under that definition it would be more of a high performance craft than the magnificent 23 Metre Cambria, or Oracle's hydrofoiling cat that finished second in the America's Cup.

    It seems odd that if I spent $100 million on a hydrofoiler that got "only" second in the world sailing speed record, or $95,000 getting the world's best boatbuilders to use the world's best timbers to make the ultimate Welsford Longsteps with the intention of winning my local club championship and it ran second by one point, they would be seen to be of lower performance than a garbage bin that achieved the intended purpose of getting half way across my pond.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    John, I don’t disagree with you at all about the streaker being a high performance boat compared to the lug rigged boats that Callsign, Wi-Tom and I sail....I wouldn’t want to have a second person in one, though, and I wouldn’t think of trying to spend a week camp cruising one......If the OP intends to spend all his time daysailing solo at a waterfront home-base, the Streaker could be a really great choice. To sail with a group of friends out of one boat, or go have a picnic, or go dinghy cruising, other designs will offer other capabilities, and many designs which are fun and capable in different ways than the streaker have shown the lug rig can be a simple and effective rig.
    But if as you agree, the Streaker would be faster, then how can it be said that the lugsails "go like smoke" or "go like hell"? Don't those terms imply superior speed?

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Just FYI the Streaker seems more and more what I am looking for, or something close.

    John in my OP I say up to 2 adults or maybe 1 adult and 2 kids or even a solo boat. Not wanting a roomy daysailer. I'm not sure any of the boats I listed could really be called roomy. I really want to get back out sailing in a small boat that would be fun. I enjoyed the Weekender but I'm not sure I want to invest much more energy in to it. One or two sails, small, easy to set up, probably a multi chine or round hull shape, and fairly simple to build.

    I would like a good winter project so by this spring I can be back on the water. Or else I might just build a motorcycle, who can tell..

    Chad
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    Chris, I don’t think that is implied at all—it boils down to how well a given boat can be driven by a well set up rig, in the environment it was designed for. It isn’t whether this is faster than that, it is about how well the whole thing works for the intended purpose....you would not expect an Optimist pram to have the same capabilities as a Caledonia yawl, yet each is a brilliant design for its intended purpose....who would argue that the boat in this image is not performing well?


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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    But if as you agree, the Streaker would be faster, then how can it be said that the lugsails "go like smoke" or "go like hell"? Don't those terms imply superior speed?
    I have read IIRC that lugsails can be faster offwind than a bermudan rig but the bermudan is so much better close hauled that overall the bermudan is faster.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I bet the Streaker will outsail any of the boats mentioned in almost all conditions.Light to handle ashore and capable of good speed in a blow.The defenders of the lug rig and cat ketch might like to quote a Portsmouth Yardstick for their particular favourite to disprove my assertion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249
    But if as you agree, the Streaker would be faster, then how can it be said that the lugsails "go like smoke" or "go like hell"? Don't those terms imply superior speed?


    LOL I'm confused. What's with you dudes and the odd aggressive attitude?

    The OP designation was a little fuzzy and opened the window to a myriad of designs: So I'm think that between now and spring I build something small (up to 2 adults and/or maybe 1 adult and 2 kids) or maybe just a solo boat. I definitely want less strings to pull and easy to set up and launch and all that good stuff... I really want to get back out on the water and want something simple and easy that works well in light airs on lake waters.

    It was not: I want to race, I want to beat you frostbiting, I am a demon with need for speed, and this is all about competition. Different people are contributing different boats. Lugs, bermuda, this hallowed Streaker, it's all good and it has less strings than his original boat. There was a short discussion on lugs and B&B cat/ketch, which have their positive and negative attributes, LIKE ANY SAIL PLAN.

    No one here denigrated the Streaker, that I can see. No one. "The Streaker would be a really great choice." Quote. So what is going on with you two armchair quarterbacks? I never heard of the Streaker. Looks like a fun boat! Fast! I love fast! I was a Laser racer and GIS sailor for years! But do all Streaker owners/sailors get their underwear bunched up at the drop of a hat that doesn't exist?

    Looks like the Streaker has standing rigging. So more complicated to set up. Discuss.


    Pooduck Skiff is another nice one that fits the OP's request.


  10. #45
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Pooduck a bit small for 2. Morbic 12 by Vivier better.
    Clinton B. Chase
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  11. #46
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    Just FYI the Streaker seems more and more what I am looking for, or something close.

    John in my OP I say up to 2 adults or maybe 1 adult and 2 kids or even a solo boat. Not wanting a roomy daysailer. I'm not sure any of the boats I listed could really be called roomy. I really want to get back out sailing in a small boat that would be fun. I enjoyed the Weekender but I'm not sure I want to invest much more energy in to it. One or two sails, small, easy to set up, probably a multi chine or round hull shape, and fairly simple to build.

    I would like a good winter project so by this spring I can be back on the water. Or else I might just build a motorcycle, who can tell..

    Chad
    I stand corrected. However, the Goat Island Skiff is probably faster than the Streaker, since it's about as fast as a Laser.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    So, here's the Portsmouth yardstick for the Streaker and some other dinghies. Lower the number, faster the boat.



    Commentary on racing a GIS in a mixed fleet:

    https://www.storerboatplans.com/plan...ndicap-racing/


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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    The OP should definitely consider the GIS. It is hard to argue for the simplicity of the skiff, straightforward construction, and great performance. Here is a new video showing it with 3-4 people and in choppy water. It is very capable in the right hands.
    https://www.facebook.com/10000803458...=group&__xts__[0]=68.ARBV7GZz-6fAf45YN0_xDKnF0GsvxtmzL2Sjr0gplF5zEuPvFh5z7K_8pts 8bw8Cyg_Mt_xhdIGF6nBh56W9u2_mNTmGYF1CDfojrycGbLYMt kw4yiITmVHRu2PEv9SQIG5Fs8jDKPua&__tn__=CH-R
    Clinton B. Chase
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Hey its me again! and no I'm not meaning to be difficult. I guess in my original post I might have been a little fuzzy but I was still refining what I may want and a lot of great ideas here.

    So let me add some further revisions. While 4 sided sails are great, I love a good gaff rig, I don't think I want a 4 sided one, time to maybe try something a bit different. I don't particularly mind a stayed mast, once I stand up the Weekender mast the stays aren't difficult, just tighten the turnbuckle. I'm sure my wife probably wouldn't sail with me so maybe the Grandkids when they move back home, so I"m not as worried about the space as much. I do like the look and style of the Streaker for sure.

    But still working on what I want and I appreciate all the input. And I'm still open to different ideas.

    Some things I don't want. I don't want a cabin. I don't want a square front end. Not really interested in a flat bottom design. I'm thinking not over 12' but that is not set in stone.

    I really just need to get back out on the water and have fun.

    Chad
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post


    LOL I'm confused. What's with you dudes and the odd aggressive attitude?

    The OP designation was a little fuzzy and opened the window to a myriad of designs: So I'm think that between now and spring I build something small (up to 2 adults and/or maybe 1 adult and 2 kids) or maybe just a solo boat. I definitely want less strings to pull and easy to set up and launch and all that good stuff... I really want to get back out on the water and want something simple and easy that works well in light airs on lake waters.

    It was not: I want to race, I want to beat you frostbiting, I am a demon with need for speed, and this is all about competition. Different people are contributing different boats. Lugs, bermuda, this hallowed Streaker, it's all good and it has less strings than his original boat. There was a short discussion on lugs and B&B cat/ketch, which have their positive and negative attributes, LIKE ANY SAIL PLAN.

    No one here denigrated the Streaker, that I can see. No one. "The Streaker would be a really great choice." Quote. So what is going on with you two armchair quarterbacks? I never heard of the Streaker. Looks like a fun boat! Fast! I love fast! I was a Laser racer and GIS sailor for years! But do all Streaker owners/sailors get their underwear bunched up at the drop of a hat that doesn't exist?

    Looks like the Streaker has standing rigging. So more complicated to set up. Discuss.


    Pooduck Skiff is another nice one that fits the OP's request.

    I have to admit at the outset that I'm not actually a Streaker owner and further that I have only ever spent a couple of hours sailing anything that slow.I do believe it answers the description Chad posted and could carry one modest sized passenger,while being light ashore and capable of going quite nicely.I understand that a mixture of culture and cold water has reduced the exposure of many Americans to small boats that perform quite well.There is no dinghy that I know of that has a choice of rig,in which anything other than Bermudan is used.The simplicity and performance potential just eclipsed all the other choices and I have sailed in an International Moth championship that also included a proa-it didn't catch on.

    How many Jack Holt designs would fit Chad's requirements?The Mirror-probably would,as would the Heron or its close relative the Vagabond.Maybe the Pacer or Enterprise,possibly the GP14 although it is getting a bit larger than the original requirement.Taken together there are more than 120 thousand boats to these designs-ever heard of any of them?

    Standing rigging for a deck stepped mast-piece of cake.Get two shrouds and a forestay,attach the shroud adjusters (not bottlescrews,they went out of use more than forty years ago) lift the mast into the step,apply a little tension to the forestay and reeve the lashing and then tie it off.Tie the halyard to the sail and hoist it then go sailing.No foot or luff lashings on the sails to slow things down.Find a simpler or more efficient rig?I suspect Chris would agree with most of my post.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Hey I just searched for Jack Holt and I like a lot of what I see there. Where are his plans available at?

    Chad
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    I understand that way of defining "performance", but it basically means that almost anything can be called "low performance" or "high performance", and it's also so subjective.
    Chris,

    Of course it's subjective--that's the point! Someone interested in racing will define performance by speed. That's fine. But it comes across as very arrogant and confrontational to insist that's the only possible view. My interests (solo sail and oar cruising, often in semi-remote or remote areas far from assistance) suggest the following definition of performance:

    -a rig that can be dropped and set quickly and easily for transitions between rowing and sailing
    -ability to row all day at 3 knots in flat water+ and still have rowing be a pleasure rather than a chore
    -ability to make progress to windward under sail when necessary, even when reefed
    -a rig that's simple to reef and strike while on the water
    -extreme shoal draft to tuck in close to shore for anchoring or camping, or sneak through shoals and narrows
    -ability to recover from a capsize without assistance
    -light enough to trailer behind a 4 cylinder car
    -avoidance of expensive hardware
    -ability to carry gear for 30 days+ without resupply
    -ability to sleep two aboard in comfort
    -minimal strings to pull, ability to self-steer--when sailing 30+ miles per day for weeks at a time, I don't want the boat to demand athletic sailing

    A boat that can do ALL of those things (as my Alaska can) is hardly a floating garbage bin--it's a highly evolved high performance design. Will it be fastest around the buoys? Who cares? You, maybe. Not me.

    Fact is, according to my needs, a Streaker would be a very low performance boat. So I propose that instead of insisting that "high performance" means "speed," that you simply call fast boats fast if that's what you mean. But there are very definitely other ways to judge performance besides speed.

    By the way, your example of a $95,000 Long Steps I'd call VERY low performance (per dollar) indeed. And "per dollar" is another valid consideration when it comes to performance.

    Sorry for the thread drift! But I couldn't let your "garbage bin" hyperbole stand unanswered.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I understand that a mixture of culture and cold water has reduced the exposure of many Americans to small boats that perform quite well.
    By "perform quite well" it appears that you mean "sail fast." That's a valid measure of performance, but far from the only one. There's a pretty broad segment of the sailing community that's not interested in racing. Cruising, maybe. Building, maybe. Racing, not so much.

    Particularly in connection to WoodenBoat and home building, there has been quite a growing interest in traditional rigs (spritsails, lugsails, etc) for small boat sailing. Is there ignorance about modern rigs among this segment? Sure. Just like there is widespread ignorance about traditional rigs among people whose knowledge is derived from racing and sailing production boats, which as you point out almost all use Marconi rigs. In fact, I've met only one production boat sailor who was able to correctly identify a lugsail--one person in 20 years of cruising. The rest all call it a gaff rig if they had any idea what it was at all (including the editors of national sailing magazines I've written for).

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    There is no dinghy that I know of that has a choice of rig,in which anything other than Bermudan is used.
    Well, if by "dinghy" you mean "class racer" then you are probably correct. But Ross Lillistone's Phoenix III design offers a Bermuda option, yet all the builders I've seen have opted for either the spritsail + jib, or the balance lug rig. There are probably other similar examples among designs intended for home builders. In fact, I suspect Bermuda rigs are a rarity in that community--the long mast makes them harder to set up, and harder to trailer. So to a large extent we are coming from different worlds entirely, I think. Nothing wrong with either take on sailing, but both groups should be aware that others think about sailing differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    How many Jack Holt designs would fit Chad's requirements?The Mirror-probably would,as would the Heron or its close relative the Vagabond.Maybe the Pacer or Enterprise,possibly the GP14 although it is getting a bit larger than the original requirement.Taken together there are more than 120 thousand boats to these designs-ever heard of any of them?
    Again, it makes little sense to expect that people who have come to sailing from the boatbuilding side of things, as many of us on the WBF (including me) have done, to know all that much about production boats. I'd guess the Mirror is well known here, the others not so much. Growing up inland, where your main access to sailing craft is messabouts featuring home-built boats, you're not going to learn about the Heron or Enterprise. And the flip side: how many production boat sailors or dinghy racers could name any designs by John Welsford, Jim Michalak, Ian Oughtred, Ross Lillistone, Paul Gartside, etc.?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Standing rigging for a deck stepped mast-piece of cake.Get two shrouds and a forestay,attach the shroud adjusters (not bottlescrews,they went out of use more than forty years ago) lift the mast into the step,apply a little tension to the forestay and reeve the lashing and then tie it off.Tie the halyard to the sail and hoist it then go sailing.No foot or luff lashings on the sails to slow things down.Find a simpler or more efficient rig?I suspect Chris would agree with most of my post.
    A piece of cake, maybe by your standards. But pretty complicated compared to picking up a mast and dropping it into a partner without shrouds or stays. Halyard and hoist away is the same for a lug rig--but without the shrouds and stays. So, find a simpler rig? Yes. A lugsail.

    More efficient? Again, you have to ask, "More efficient at what?

    It's all good--different goals require different things from a rig. But let's not pretend that speed is the only way to measure performance, or that the Bermuda rig is the be-all, end-all for every boat.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    Hey I just searched for Jack Holt and I like a lot of what I see there. Where are his plans available at?

    Chad
    The main business of Jack Holt wasn't selling plans.If you identify a particular boat of his,there is a good chance the relevant Class Association can point you in the right direction.The good thing is that he designed with the home builder in mind and he had some good ideas.I believe he was the first to use something other than lead to keep a centreboard down when he added a piece of rubber hose tothe GP14 for the purpose and that was in 1949.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    By "perform quite well" it appears that you mean "sail fast." That's a valid measure of performance, but far from the only one. There's a pretty broad segment of the sailing community that's not interested in racing. Cruising, maybe. Building, maybe. Racing, not so much.

    Particularly in connection to WoodenBoat and home building, there has been quite a growing interest in traditional rigs (spritsails, lugsails, etc) for small boat sailing. Is there ignorance about modern rigs among this segment? Sure. Just like there is widespread ignorance about traditional rigs among people whose knowledge is derived from racing and sailing production boats, which as you point out almost all use Marconi rigs. In fact, I've met only one production boat sailor who was able to correctly identify a lugsail--one person in 20 years of cruising. The rest all call it a gaff rig if they had any idea what it was at all (including the editors of national sailing magazines I've written for).



    Well, if by "dinghy" you mean "class racer" then you are probably correct. But Ross Lillistone's Phoenix III design offers a Bermuda option, yet all the builders I've seen have opted for either the spritsail + jib, or the balance lug rig. There are probably other similar examples among designs intended for home builders. In fact, I suspect Bermuda rigs are a rarity in that community--the long mast makes them harder to set up, and harder to trailer. So to a large extent we are coming from different worlds entirely, I think. Nothing wrong with either take on sailing, but both groups should be aware that others think about sailing differently.



    Again, it makes little sense to expect that people who have come to sailing from the boatbuilding side of things, as many of us on the WBF (including me) have done, to know all that much about production boats. I'd guess the Mirror is well known here, the others not so much. Growing up inland, where your main access to sailing craft is messabouts featuring home-built boats, you're not going to learn about the Heron or Enterprise. And the flip side: how many production boat sailors or dinghy racers could name any designs by John Welsford, Jim Michalak, Ian Oughtred, Ross Lillistone, Paul Gartside, etc.?



    A piece of cake, maybe by your standards. But pretty complicated compared to picking up a mast and dropping it into a partner without shrouds or stays. Halyard and hoist away is the same for a lug rig--but without the shrouds and stays. So, find a simpler rig? Yes. A lugsail.

    More efficient? Again, you have to ask, "More efficient at what?

    It's all good--different goals require different things from a rig. But let's not pretend that speed is the only way to measure performance, or that the Bermuda rig is the be-all, end-all for every boat.

    Tom
    Clearly I hit a nerve.I see no great merit in a boat that can hardly get out of it's own way and if you don't want to sail a fast boat to it's potential performance-you don't have to.On the other hand you will never be able to sail a slow boat fast and even when not racing,it is often quite useful to have the ability to make good speed.It extends your sailing range and allows you to get back rapidly when necessary if adverse conditions appear imminent.

    I find it interesting that assumptions about racers are included,but the basic laws of aero and hydro dynamics have seen rigs evolve.A simple loose footed bermuda rig is a lot less complicated and lighter than the alternatives beside being faster.If you prefer the appearance of traditional sailplans-by all means go that way.

    I harbour no ill feelings toward any of the designers you reference,but have they,in total,seen as many boats launched as Jack Holt's Solo?Thats another 5500 boats that I forgot to include in my earlier brief list of his designs.

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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    “A boat that can hardly get out of its way”

    That seams a bit strong and unfounded. If a lug rig is usually slower on average than a Marconi by some amount, that does not mean they can’t get out of their own way. It is not that black and white. Surely there are dogs out there, but WI-Tom’s is not one of them. GIS and SNS are not. My canoe has a displacement hull speed of 5.27 knots. I regularly do 5.7 and often 6.3 knots. That’s with a pretty basic balanced lug I ordered from Duckworks. Not a highly tunned Storer or Nigel Irens affair (Irens, a top notch NA of all types who appreciates the lug)

    I think this discussion could tack back to options that are good, simple, and easy to build. Instead of what is really fast. Easily available plans are good too.

    CS, when you say you don’t want a flat bottom boat. Are you excluding narrow flatbottomed multi-chined plywood boats? Are you saying you want a round bottom, aka strip-planked glassed and epoxied? Just to clearly for suggestions.
    Last edited by Matt young; 08-16-2018 at 06:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    Clearly I hit a nerve.
    Not really. What you think of my choices doesn't matter a whole lot except insofar as I can learn from your perspective. But you are engaging in some inaccuracies and hyperbole. In the interest of a good discussion where we can all learn, I won't let them pass unchallenged. This, for example:

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I see no great merit in a boat that can hardly get out of it's own way
    Just this summer, on one stretch a trip to Georgian Bay, I sailed about 10 miles (measuring by Google Earth after the fact, so not astoundingly accurate) in 80 minutes (measured by a wrist watch so fairly accurate) on a broad reach. That's with a boomless standing lugsail reefed to around 72 sq ft (rough estimate) on a heavily loaded (220 lb crew, 100 lbs ballast + gear for a month) 16'+ waterline displacement hull. Would you honestly call that "a boat that can hardly get out of its own way?"

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    even when not racing,it is often quite useful to have the ability to make good speed.It extends your sailing range and allows you to get back rapidly when necessary if adverse conditions appear imminent.
    True enough. But then, no one has argued that speed is bad--it's not really honest to argue against a point no one has made. Speed is an advantage--sure. It's simply not the only thing that matters for many sailors.

    But if adverse conditions were imminent and I were caught offshore, it might make more sense to strike the rig and take to the oars. I used that strategy the day after my 10-mile run, and it was very effective. In fact, the frontal winds came in so fast that it was a distinct advantage to have an easily-dropped lugsail that let me do so in seconds. Otherwise I might well have capsized--it was that strong and sudden. I simply rowed the remaining two miles to shelter without any fuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    A simple loose footed bermuda rig is a lot less complicated and lighter than the alternatives
    Well, no. It isn't. It has a taller, stayed rig which brings its own complications--complications not shared with unstayed rigs and shorter masts. And hollow wooden spars can be pretty light, while the yard of a lugsail offers flotation and resistance to turtling, so perhaps any extra weight is compensated for in other ways.

    Not to mention:

    How many sail control lines does your bermuda rig use? My lug rig uses two--sheet and downhaul. How many blocks do you use? I use one for the sheet and two for the downhaul--though I used to get by with a simple modified trucker's hitch for the downhaul. How easy is it for you to brail up your bermuda rig for a brief stop ashore? It's the work of a moment in my boat--I suspect you can't do it at all. How simple is it to reef your bermuda rig in a small dinghy while sailing?

    Nothing wrong with bermuda rigs, but they are surely not less complicated than an unstayed lug rig.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    beside being faster.
    Is it faster? I think off the wind a boomed lug rig might give it a run for its money, or beat it. Dead to windward, I think I could beat it outright in my sail-and-oar cruiser by dropping the rig and rowing, at least in some conditions. And on a windless day, I'd be miles ahead of you. So "faster" by cruising standards, where you want to cover a certain amount of ground each day no matter the wind, is not as simple as top speed round the buoys.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    If you prefer the appearance of traditional sailplans-by all means go that way.
    No one but you has brought appearance into it. So far this has been a discussion of practical matters. Aesthetics are too personal and subjective for this to be an interesting argument for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I harbour no ill feelings toward any of the designers you reference,but have they,in total,seen as many boats launched as Jack Holt's Solo?Thats another 5500 boats that I forgot to include in my earlier brief list of his designs.
    I'm sure Jack Holt's boats are great. The Mirror (the only one I know) is deservedly popular. But forgive me if I refuse to use the total number of boats launched as the defining measure of a design's virtues.

    Again, my previous post wasn't because you hit a nerve. It's because some of the claims you made don't match what I know to be true from my own experience. I really do think that the home-builder, wooden boat, non-racing side of sailing is very different from the backgrounds of people like you and Chris. We have other priorities, and different definitions of "performance." Neither is right or wrong, better or worse. They're just different. Where I disagree is when people start making claims about such-and-such rig being "the best" in some non-specific, abstract way.

    There are no abstract definitions of "high performance" that make any sense--only specific ones tailored to the purposes and uses of specific individual sailors.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    Hey its me again! and no I'm not meaning to be difficult. I guess in my original post I might have been a little fuzzy but I was still refining what I may want and a lot of great ideas here.

    So let me add some further revisions. While 4 sided sails are great, I love a good gaff rig, I don't think I want a 4 sided one, time to maybe try something a bit different. I don't particularly mind a stayed mast, once I stand up the Weekender mast the stays aren't difficult, just tighten the turnbuckle. I'm sure my wife probably wouldn't sail with me so maybe the Grandkids when they move back home, so I"m not as worried about the space as much. I do like the look and style of the Streaker for sure.

    But still working on what I want and I appreciate all the input. And I'm still open to different ideas.

    Some things I don't want. I don't want a cabin. I don't want a square front end. Not really interested in a flat bottom design. I'm thinking not over 12' but that is not set in stone.

    I really just need to get back out on the water and have fun.

    Chad
    Yes, I understood that you didn't want a four sided sail, which is why I suggested using a Laser rig, a modification approved by the designer of the Goat Island Skiff. I think part of your frustration comes from not remembering some of what's been said already.

    But if you're dead set against a flat bottom, the GIS is out. The Streaker is slower and probably harder to build, but I understand its aesthetic appeal. You might also look at the OK dingy. It's faster and no harder to build than the Streaker. On the other hand, any boat designed before the advent of stitch and glue will be harder to build than a stitch and glue boat.

    You might look at the Paperjet 14, which can be rigged like a Laser or given a more challenging rig.

    https://www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm

    If you really want to keep it under 12 feet, you might consider building a classic Moth. It's a development class, so they come in a variety of shapes, and there is a community that still builds them and restores them, mostly on the east coast. Here are some of the options:

    http://earwigoagin.blogspot.com/2010...oth-plans.html

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Meacham, I feel like you read another thread and just started replying here through some redirect you didn't notice. Your posts are particularly aggro which I normally wouldn't have a problem with if it wasn't misplaced. I'm not sure why, it's confusing. Or is it a personal crusade?

    **********************

    CS, there are so many great boats out there. Here's another suggestion: Garstide Riff. (strip construction, not sure how you feel about that.) Also, the 11' tender (not strip, easier to build for you, maybe?)

    If you want something a little hotter and smaller in volume try The Viola. It's over 12' but narrow and it'll move right along and easy for you to move it yourself too, if you're alone manhandling the boat, which is something a lot of people don't think about when they first choose a design. Easy construction.

    Last edited by callsign222; 08-16-2018 at 09:05 PM. Reason: clarity

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Chris,

    Of course it's subjective--that's the point! Someone interested in racing will define performance by speed. That's fine. But it comes across as very arrogant and confrontational to insist that's the only possible view. My interests (solo sail and oar cruising, often in semi-remote or remote areas far from assistance) suggest the following definition of performance:

    -a rig that can be dropped and set quickly and easily for transitions between rowing and sailing
    -ability to row all day at 3 knots in flat water+ and still have rowing be a pleasure rather than a chore
    -ability to make progress to windward under sail when necessary, even when reefed
    -a rig that's simple to reef and strike while on the water
    -extreme shoal draft to tuck in close to shore for anchoring or camping, or sneak through shoals and narrows
    -ability to recover from a capsize without assistance
    -light enough to trailer behind a 4 cylinder car
    -avoidance of expensive hardware
    -ability to carry gear for 30 days+ without resupply
    -ability to sleep two aboard in comfort
    -minimal strings to pull, ability to self-steer--when sailing 30+ miles per day for weeks at a time, I don't want the boat to demand athletic sailing

    A boat that can do ALL of those things (as my Alaska can) is hardly a floating garbage bin--it's a highly evolved high performance design. Will it be fastest around the buoys? Who cares? You, maybe. Not me.

    Fact is, according to my needs, a Streaker would be a very low performance boat. So I propose that instead of insisting that "high performance" means "speed," that you simply call fast boats fast if that's what you mean. But there are very definitely other ways to judge performance besides speed.

    By the way, your example of a $95,000 Long Steps I'd call VERY low performance (per dollar) indeed. And "per dollar" is another valid consideration when it comes to performance.

    Sorry for the thread drift! But I couldn't let your "garbage bin" hyperbole stand unanswered.

    Tom
    Tom, in no way did I mean to imply that your Alaska or any such boat is a garbage bin, and I apologise if my wording gave that impression - the reference to "my pond" was intended to make it apparent that I was not denigrating anyone's boat. Yours is a great boat and what you do with it is fantastic and inspirational.

    As far as being "arrogant and confrontational", I'd have to say that seems a bit over the top. In no way am I saying that faster is better, nor do I think I've ever implied that. On my blog and on sites like Sailing Anarchy I have regularly gone into battle for slower boats. I use boatspeed sometimes as an example, but simply because it is a more objective measure than some other forms of comparison.

    I do understand the definition of "performance" but it can still seem to be so subjective that it may obscure as much as enlighten. It would mean that the world championship winning Optimist (but perhaps not the identical boat that came out of the same mould the next day and finished 100th in the national titles) was "high performance" whereas the foiling Moth that came second in the world title could be "low performance", and that the same boat could be a "high performance" boat one day and a low performance boat the next. It would also mean that a foiling Moth, a beautiful Long Steps, my garbage bin and a classic Fife would all fall under the same terminology.

    The issue with loose subjective terms could seem to be highlighted by the fact that I could subjectively refer to my International Canoe as "having simplicity and stability to burn" (which it does, compared to some Canoes) and because I'm a shortie I could say that my 28'er has "heaps of headroom". That theoretical $95,000 Long Steps could be seen to be "high performance" if the owner's intended purpose was to show off their wealth or to take a tax loss. By the same token, a Long Steps of greater quality would be seen as "lower performance" if it cost $5200 instead of the intended $5,000.* My beaten-up old Windsurfer could be seen to be of "higher performance" than my beautifully kept Windsurfer from the same mould. That seems to be rather less than illuminating.

    However, we won't convince each other so let's agree to differ.


    * No denigration of Long Steps intended, and the use of racing boats as examples is not because they are better but because they can be judged objectively to some extent.
    Last edited by Chris249; 08-16-2018 at 09:50 PM.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post


    LOL I'm confused. What's with you dudes and the odd aggressive attitude?

    The OP designation was a little fuzzy and opened the window to a myriad of designs: So I'm think that between now and spring I build something small (up to 2 adults and/or maybe 1 adult and 2 kids) or maybe just a solo boat. I definitely want less strings to pull and easy to set up and launch and all that good stuff... I really want to get back out on the water and want something simple and easy that works well in light airs on lake waters.

    It was not: I want to race, I want to beat you frostbiting, I am a demon with need for speed, and this is all about competition. Different people are contributing different boats. Lugs, bermuda, this hallowed Streaker, it's all good and it has less strings than his original boat. There was a short discussion on lugs and B&B cat/ketch, which have their positive and negative attributes, LIKE ANY SAIL PLAN.

    No one here denigrated the Streaker, that I can see. No one. "The Streaker would be a really great choice." Quote. So what is going on with you two armchair quarterbacks? I never heard of the Streaker. Looks like a fun boat! Fast! I love fast! I was a Laser racer and GIS sailor for years! But do all Streaker owners/sailors get their underwear bunched up at the drop of a hat that doesn't exist?

    Looks like the Streaker has standing rigging. So more complicated to set up. Discuss.


    Pooduck Skiff is another nice one that fits the OP's request.

    We're discussing rigs and we didn't use any aggressive personal terms, like you just did.

    We are essentially saying, like you, that each sailplan has "their positive and negative attributes". Surely that means we have to discuss it logically and not refer to a rig that is a bit slower by using terms that imply it's fast. A quick Google indicates that "goes like hell" and "goes like smoke" are regularly used to mean something that is unusually fast. Lug rigs are great, but they are not unusually fast. Why not recognise that?

    Sure, the lug rig is great in a boat like a Caledonian Yawl or GIS - not a single thing we ever said implied that it isn't. I did a blog post about sailing the most popular racing lug rigger which was very positive about the experience. But does the fact that the lug rig suit some boats well mean that when people use terms that imply that the lug is a particularly fast rig, we can't point out that (for all its strengths) it's not actually all that quick? Do we just have to sit back and keep silent about the fact that other rigs do some things better?

    Do we just have to endlessly applaud "traditional" rigs even when it is implied that they are objectively better in all respects? Can't we ever point out, in a discussion where it's relevant, that they have their weaknesses as well as their strengths?

    I know my own rigs have upsides and downsides. So do my own boats, my own house, my own cars, my own work, my own blog. What's wrong with trying to identify, and perhaps quantify. the upsides and downsides of lug and other rigs?







  27. #62
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    Meacham, I feel like you read another thread and just started replying here through some redirect you didn't notice. Your posts are particularly aggro which I normally wouldn't have a problem with if it wasn't misplaced. I'm not sure why, it's confusing. Or is it a personal crusade?

    **********************

    CS, there are so many great boats out there. Here's another suggestion: Garstide Riff. (strip construction, not sure how you feel about that.) Also, the 11' tender (not strip, easier to build for you, maybe?)

    If you want something a little hotter and smaller in volume try The Viola. It's over 12' but narrow and it'll move right along and easy for you to move it yourself too, if you're alone manhandling the boat, which is something a lot of people don't think about when they first choose a design. Easy construction.

    Rip was donated to the Center for Wooden Boats, and I sailed it last Sunday. Nice, stable boat, roomy for its length, sails well, but it won't plane in most conditions and the sail has four sides. Viola is probably closer to the mark.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Tom, in no way did I mean to imply that your Alaska or any such boat is a garbage bin, and I apologise if my wording gave that impression
    No worries on that front; I know you weren't being insulting. I respect your wide range of knowledge of boats and rigs (far wider than mine) and welcome your perspective. But I think your floating garbage bin example pushes my position (high performance does not necessarily mean fast) to a ridiculous extreme that distorts what I'm really saying. So I wanted to respond on those grounds.

    As far as being "arrogant and confrontational", I'd have to say that seems a bit over the top.
    You're right; to clarify, I don't think you are arrogant and confrontational. I do think, though, that insisting that "high performance" means "fastest boat" is a pretty misleading stance to take, and you have been pretty energetic in defending that interpretation (though I am, of course, equally guilty of defending mine...). And there have been inaccuracies posted on this thread about Bermudan rigs being "simpler" and "more efficient" than traditional rigs (not by you) which I feel a responsibility to contest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    In no way am I saying that faster is better, nor do I think I've ever implied that.
    Here I think you are mistaken, though. By insisting that "high performance" means "fast," you ARE saying faster is better, aren't you? Or do you mean to say that a low performance boat can be better than a high performance boat? That seems nonsensical. Whether you intend it or not, your postings do imply faster is better. I think I've made a good case for why that's not true sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    I do understand the definition of "performance" but it can still seem to be so subjective that it may obscure as much as enlighten.
    I'd argue that's exactly what your interpretation (high performance=speed) does.

    To say "I am a high performance human" is meaningless. High performance at what? Playing trumpet? That used to be true. Running marathons? Not true. Swimming? True.

    In boat terms, a foiling moth would be a terrible choice for solo cruising in remote areas. But a moth is much more "high performance" by your definition than a typical sail-and-oar boat. That makes absolutely no sense in the real world.

    Why not just say "Boat A is faster than Boat B?" and avoid all the "faster is better" implications by insisting on a "high performance" label for fast boats?

    But even here, it's not so simple. "Faster around the buoys" would not necessarily translate to "covers more ground per day while cruising"--not when it's fairly common for me to cover 10+ miles per day rowing, and then another 20 sailing. Could a Thistle do that? Maybe. Would it be correct to say a Thistle would do that better than a sail and oar boat? Doubtful. So which is "high performance" for a cruising sailor?

    In the end, I don't think we actually disagree much except on terminology and emphasis. We both know what we're talking about as far as I can see, though I suspect that my niche of competence regarding sailing is considerably narrower than yours. Anyway, I enjoy these discussions, and I apologize if I have come off as too confrontational. Thanks for sharing your insights.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 08-16-2018 at 11:13 PM.
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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  29. #64
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by John Meachen View Post
    I bet the Streaker will outsail any of the boats mentioned in almost all conditions.Light to handle ashore and capable of good speed in a blow.The defenders of the lug rig and cat ketch might like to quote a Portsmouth Yardstick for their particular favourite to disprove my assertion.

    the Streaker is a great racing boat IF you are the correct weight and have a fleet of then to race against. Not a lot of them in Tennessee.

    I have one and they don’t fit the OP requirements in any way. It is not easy to build down to a competitive weight, it is a complex build compared to most modern home build plans. The market for wooden ones has imploded, boats being offered for sail for less than the trailers / trolley and rig in most cases. Not sure where the second adult or two kids would sit, and they would certainly impact the performance.

    Promote the Streaker as much as you want but this is not appropriate advice.

    Someting like Joel Whites Pooduck Skiff or Shellback dinghy are more in order, with rig change to the OP requirements. The Goat Island Skiff might be too big, I won’t plead again for a smaller version.

    Simplicity and easy building comes generally from a low part count which in turn leads to an open boat if that meets the requirements.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Sorry on and all, thought I was at the bottom of the posts when I saw the first mention of the Streaker just seen all the other ‘emotional discussions’

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Sorry on and all, thought I was at the bottom of the posts when I saw the first mention of the Streaker just seen all the other ‘emotional discussions’

    https://dinghybuild.wordpress.com/page/2/

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Removing the emotional, lots has been said above that I could react to but this is Wooden Boat where we help each other not SA where where have the last word.

    having lug rigged boats and a streaker an unstayed lug rig will set up quicker.
    the streaker has very floppy rig, shrouds are pinned to stay adjusters and lightly tensioned with lanyard forestay (not a boat breaker of higher speed boats, don’t use the P word). The mast is supported by the foredeck so holds up while stays attached.

    Controls 1) Cunningham - permanently rigged on hull therefore quick and simple. 2) outhaul connects to boom with inglefield clip again quick 3) vang - shackle to remove from boom 4) rope traveler so left on boat 5) mainsheet - est to remove the boom if trailing so that needs re rigging.

    So not a complex rig at all, certainly less than 1/2 an hour from road trailer to ready to sail

    If mast up (ie stored in dinghy park) as quick as any boat out there the mast is straight and pulls up with ease not like a prebent mast of a fast adrenaline machine. Considerably faster than a Laser to rig.

    Obviously this rig can be used on any hull.

    Sailing wise, not as fast as a Laser, about the same as a Radial. BUT a considerably nicer sail without the vices of the Laser, speeking from experience of both.

    Jack Holt was one of the founding farthers of mass participation dinghy sailing in the U.K. and his influence can’t be underestimated.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post


    Do we just have to sit back and keep silent about the fact that other rigs do some things better?

    Do we just have to endlessly applaud "traditional" rigs even when it is implied that they are objectively better in all respects? Can't we ever point out, in a discussion where it's relevant, that they have their weaknesses as well as their strengths?



    By all means, I completely agree 100%. No one disagreed with you or Meacham. I don't own any boat right now that has a lug rig. I have a boat with a bermuda rig, a boat with a lateen, and a boat with a leg-o-mutton. I'm in the middle of a boat shuffle right now and I barely have any wood boats at the moment. The Laser is one of my most favorite boats I have ever owned (sold it, regret it-- but kept the rig to put in a trad boat down the road). Two hours before you wrote post 61 I referenced a boat with a very modern sail plan.

    My first post in this thread was actually about how the lug is more complicated than it looks. Did that go unnoticed?

    But the tone went to being immediately and unfortunately abrasive and came swinging out of left-field in a way that was unexpected and did not fit the initial OP's request or the subsequent discussion. No one was taking a poop on high performance modern rigs but the reaction was like someone did. I find it curious as to what elicited the strong reaction, and that's why I asked.

    Maybe I missed something.
    Last edited by callsign222; 08-17-2018 at 07:29 AM.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post

    I think this discussion could tack back to options that are good, simple, and easy to build. Instead of what is really fast. Easily available plans are good too.

    CS, when you say you don’t want a flat bottom boat. Are you excluding narrow flatbottomed multi-chined plywood boats? Are you saying you want a round bottom, aka strip-planked glassed and epoxied? Just to clearly for suggestions.

    I am moving my previous post down here.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Both the Weekender and the Sharpie I built were flat bottomed, so I think this time around something with multi chines or round would be more to my liking. I love doing the strip construction like for my canoes but for this I'm thinking more simple and quick. I want to build it in my shop and be ready for spring.

    I'm hoping to go through all the post later and really look at each idea. I'm narrowing things down in my head, been a lot of help here giving me options. Not sure I want to spend $200 or $300 for plans but you never know.

    Chad
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