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Thread: Simple and easy build and sail

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    The UK Old Gaffers Association commissioned Andrew Wolstenholme NA, to design a CNC cut, easy to build and sail 'all round' dinghy this year. Single chine, stitch and glue.



    Look here for more info:-

    http://www.oga.org.uk/news/oga-dinghy-update-1

    nice, thanks for sharing

  2. #107
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Blimey, this thread took a turn. If i may, my answer to that question would be that the dinghies i have sailed with lug, gunter and bermudian, all had 3 basic lines; a halyard, a vang/downhaul and a sheet. As someone with no interest in racing, i find if you add an outhaul to those, that is as much sail shaping as most people might need. I like the gunter rig for the shorter mast over bermudian and it will lack upwind in comparison, but the overall performance of the balanced lug "for my laid back purpose" wins out, just, over a gunter. It is easy to spend far more than needed on any rig, and i will leave it at that, and the expense to hardcore racers and those with deeper pockets.
    all sounds good to me, nicely sums it all up.

  3. #108
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Lots of great input and ideas, too many to digest right at this moment. I had a knee scope today and the anesthesia has really kicked my ass. I will digest this more thoroughl and make a post with ones that I have narrowed it down to when I get half a chance.

    Thanks for all the great ideas and the Zephyr looks interesting.

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

  4. #109
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    ...Thanks for all the great ideas...
    One more great idea (said with modesty intact). Have a peek at Plan No.23, TERN from Bob Baker in the catalog linked below -

    http://www.by-the-sea.com/bakerboatw...ansCatalog.pdf

    Good luck with the boat and your wheel.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    Thank you! I'm sure Chad will be along eventually to comment on this, but I get the sense that his desire for a boat that is not flat-bottomed is aesthetic, not performance related. I think he wants to build something different this time.

    But to satisfy my own curiosity, how does the GIS with the Laser sail compare in performance to the one with the lug rig? Is it at all under canvassed? And is there a way to compare the Canadian and European yardstick numbers? If memory serves (which it doesn't always,) the Laser is somewhere around 90 in the Canadian system.

    Edited to add: Should have gone to the link first, the Laser rates 91.1 in the Canadian system. Still interested in how to convert the numbers from the European to the North American system.
    Howdy

    To interpret the European figures, the easiest thing is to compare with the Laser in the European system.

    Then it is just playing with the ratios. Or just to look at boats with the same PY.

    So divide the PY by the Laser PY in the same system. Then multiply the PY in the other system by that ratio.

    OK ... to the GIS with the Laser rig,

    At this point I wouldn't in particular be recommending it. It looked like a good option over two decades ago when we were still being somewhat defensive about our weird fetish for wooden boats. Sail is so much of the cost ... what sails are available around the world.

    That is where the idea came from.

    Now with the perspective of more than 2 decades it would be a waste to put the Laser rig on the Goat.

    105 down to just under 80 (when measured the same way in CAD). It is a big drop

    It is going to be OK singlehanded but be a bit underpowered with two or more.

    And you lose the truly excellent light wind performance. And you can't reef.

    Maybe one of Rooster's big turbo rigs for the Laser might make more sense.
    http://www.nzboating-world.com/n/New...solution/31442

    But maybe it is best for someone who doesn't have enough money to buy a new Lug Sail ... yet. That's where I would tend to put it.

    Best wishes to all
    MIK

  6. #111
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by tink View Post
    nice, thanks for sharing
    Strongly reminiscent of the YW Heron which was the most popular sail boat in Australia (by club participation numbers) for a long slab of time in the '60s

    Attachment 21687

  7. #112
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    One fairly easy to build boat is the Windmill. I used to race one years ago, and it will definitely get up and go. Portsmouth ratings make it a little faster than a Laser (which I also used to race). Windmill is not a great daysailer because it is a little tender, and is difficult to launch off the beach due to the long dagger board. It is reasonably simple and will handle 2 people with ease. It would be a handful to single hand except in light air.

    I also currently sail a Grumman Canoe with the 65 sq.ft. sliding gunter rig. It is a neat sail rig and will really move a 17ft canoe. I have thought about modifying one of my other canoes to use the Grumman rig on a prettier boat.
    Last edited by Ski-Patroller; 08-22-2018 at 03:05 PM.

  8. #113
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Zephyr is essentially a Gen I Moth. If you like those, there are a lot of plans to choose from.

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Okay for starts I've looked quickly through the post once again and came up with a "short" list. Not all inclusive and still open to debate, but I now have a more dialed in direction.

    So here you go not in the order of preference but in the order open in my browser.

    Zephyr
    http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5623


    Paper Jet
    https://www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm

    Core Sound 15
    http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs15/

    Streaker
    https://www.streaker-class.org.uk/plans

    Glen L 12
    https://www.boatdesigns.com/12-Glen-.../products/440/

    Miracle Dinghy
    http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5614

    GP-14
    http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4163

    So from here ideas and thoughts?

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
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  10. #115
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    All good boats.Just one possible fly in the ointment with the Miracle,it was intended as a slightly larger boat for the Mirror market and was only ever supplied as a kit-are plans available?

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    I don't think you can get plans for the Miracle dinghy, but I might be wrong. The Core Sound 15 is fast reaching, not so much to windward, unless the one I sailed against wasn't being handled properly. I recommended the Paperjet, but I should point out that the minimal rocker that makes it fast also means it has less carrying capacity, and will build up induced drag as you load it up. If single handed sailing is your priority, it's a good bet. I suspect the Glen L 12 is the slowest of the lot.

    Are there any dinghy fleets in your area? I just Googled and found there's a Snipe fleet, those are heavy but surprisingly fast, and since they're built like icebreakers, they last forever.

  12. #117
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Watching with interest which you select and why Any one of them should do the stated job.

  13. #118
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    Okay for starts I've looked quickly through the post once again and came up with a "short" list. Not all inclusive and still open to debate, but I now have a more dialed in direction.

    So here you go not in the order of preference but in the order open in my browser.

    Zephyr
    http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5623


    Paper Jet
    https://www.dixdesign.com/paperjet.htm

    Core Sound 15
    http://bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs15/

    Streaker
    https://www.streaker-class.org.uk/plans

    Glen L 12
    https://www.boatdesigns.com/12-Glen-.../products/440/

    Miracle Dinghy
    http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=5614

    GP-14
    http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=4163

    So from here ideas and thoughts?

    Chad
    Quite a different collection of boats there with regard function, build complexity and plan availablity / build support.

    I think the divide into into a two categories

    performance, mainly single handed
    Paperjet
    Streaker
    Zephyr

    Paperjet would be the top of my list as more modern self draining design, designer still actively promoting design and lots of support and othe people building. Most versatile with rig choices and practically the only one that can take a crew.

    Larger more General purpose 2 person
    Glen
    Coresound
    GP 14
    Miracle - as others have sail plan availablity may be an issue

    I think I would go Coresound for similar reasons, as designer promoting, more modern etc. The man from B&B seams an interesting guy - http://hookedonwoodenboats.com/howb-...yacht-designs/

    So for me stick with a design is modern and being actively built, you may pay a bit more for plans but easy recovery the money in design sophistication and support.

    Interested to see which way you go

  14. #119
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    With respect, I've been lucky enough to interview many of the world's best racing dinghy designers, and the Paper Jet seems to ignore many of the lessons they have learned over the past few decades. The extremely flat rocker, very Veed bow and wide stern are things the top designers stay away from for both speed and handling reasons. I'm not sure how accurate the yardstick handicaps are for its homeland, but there the singlehanded PJ with spinnaker is rated barely faster than a Laser. Almost every pic I see shows the crew a long way aft, even in moderate conditions, which is probably a result of the factors mentioned earlier and can be problematic in both speed and handling.

    The Australian classes Tink mentioned earlier are probably the Sabre and Impulse. The Sabre is comparatively cheap in class-racing form, very popular, very seaworthy since it was designed for the wide open and windy expanses of Port Phillip Bay (similar to San Francisco) but often considered a bit dull in light winds. It's actually rated slower than the Laser 4.7 but it's a very fun, practical, safe and popular boat. Nice roomy cockpit and good freeboard for cruising. At 90lb for a 12 footer, it's a light boat.

    The Impulse is a quicker boat - the yardstick is way off and it's up there in speed with the Laser (as it should be). Nice boat, and pretty light at 100lb for the 14ft hull.
    I have no idea how easy the Impulse or Sabre are to build, since the people I know who build them are expert amateurs.

    The Streaker does seem like a nice boat, designed by a master after he had spent years learning his trade and creating some of the greatest boats of our day. Pretty similar to the Impulse in general style.

    The Phantom could be a good idea - it's a British boat similar in shape to the Impulse but bigger and a renowned class for heavier sailors. With its big rig it's a really quick boat in light winds. The extra size may make it more versatile for you. These days they are production built, in carbon I think, but they were originally ply.

    If you're looking at the GP14, a great design but an ageing one, you could also look at the Enterprise which is a newer (but still very old) design from the same board. It's much lighter and a very good light wind boat. It was designed as a family boat and has a simple rig. Like the GP, Impulse, Phantom, Sabre, Streaker and 125, it's got an active class association that can help with information.

    The CS17 designer overstates the (alleged) discrimination against cat ketches on his site, which is the sort of stuff that makes me uneasy. According to this old thread, it's not in the same speed class as much older designs like the Wayfarer or other much "cruisier" designs. Obviously that may not be an issue for you, but I just thought I'd mention it.

    Another design is the 125, an Australian two-person spinnaker-and-trapeze boat that is very light (110lb hull), cheap and designed for home building. However, it's more of a lightweight's boat and with its flat hull, it may not be fascinating to sail in the light winds typical of the USA. Speed is similar to a 420. It could perhaps be seen as a lightweight high-wind version of the Miracle.

    In some ways the Viola could be an excellent choice - it's probably far quicker to build than any of the above, cheap and fun to sail.

  15. #120
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    And now that I have come up with some choices and kinda study them, I'm thinking it is time to refine a bit. Maybe down size just a bit, not as worried about 2 adults "comfortably" and thinking even more for just me or maybe me and a kid. As I look at those ideas above that I listed I think for simplicity it might be better to go down to a single sail and not worry as much about a jib. Learning and growing my wants and needs.

    I would like to see if there is more info or plans on the Impulse and Sabre mentioned above and I would like to explore the Zephyr more and the Streaker is still an option, but I think I've ruled out the Paper Jet.

    So lets add these two ideas, the free Zephyr 14' dinghy #287.

    http://boatplans-online.com/plans/BPO_zephyr.pdf

    and back again to the Glen L 11' Topper. This one is simple, small, and plenty easy for one guy just to sail, relax and chill, plus the BOM is pretty small.

    https://www.boatdesigns.com/11-Toppe.../products/466/


    So growing and learning and ever evolving and revising what I"m after.

    I"m still open to ideas and like I said more information on plans for the Impulse and the Sabre and any other suggestions.

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

  16. #121
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    It seems like you're more interested in singlehanders than I had thought, so let me at Richard Woods' Zest design to the mix. Richard is a former Moth champion, so he knows a lot about real performance, and I've seen him build a Zest in a day (with considerable skilled help.)



    http://sailingcatamarans.com/index.p...ghies/436-zest


  17. #122
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    What about the Philip Rhodes Penguin design?

    Simple - Designed to be built by amateurs

    Plywood

    it's a catboat so fewer strings to pull

    Holds 2 adults.

    Is actually a "class" boat so there are Penguin fleets.

    http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=3167

    https://www.woodenboat.com/boat-laun...class-dinghy-0

    https://www.woodenboat.com/boat-launchings/playboy

    If I were going to start out in the realm of boatbuilding, I would start with a Penguin.

  18. #123
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by cs View Post
    And now that I have come up with some choices and kinda study them, I'm thinking it is time to refine a bit. Maybe down size just a bit, not as worried about 2 adults "comfortably" and thinking even more for just me or maybe me and a kid. As I look at those ideas above that I listed I think for simplicity it might be better to go down to a single sail and not worry as much about a jib. Learning and growing my wants and needs.

    I would like to see if there is more info or plans on the Impulse and Sabre mentioned above and I would like to explore the Zephyr more and the Streaker is still an option, but I think I've ruled out the Paper Jet.

    So lets add these two ideas, the free Zephyr 14' dinghy #287.

    http://boatplans-online.com/plans/BPO_zephyr.pdf

    and back again to the Glen L 11' Topper. This one is simple, small, and plenty easy for one guy just to sail, relax and chill, plus the BOM is pretty small.

    https://www.boatdesigns.com/11-Toppe.../products/466/


    So growing and learning and ever evolving and revising what I"m after.

    I"m still open to ideas and like I said more information on plans for the Impulse and the Sabre and any other suggestions.

    Chad
    The Glen-L Topper looks simple enough and has a bit of interior space.The Zephyr looks a bit odd in some ways,I doubt the weight quoted included the 1/4 inch steel centreplate and the claim that it conforms to the rule of a 14 foot International class is a bit curious as the International 14 does not have decks,which makes me wonder about the reliability of the rest of the material.I haven't seen a sailing dinghy specified with sail track screwed to the mast in a very long time and think the simplicity and weight advantage of a bolt rope would be a much better idea.

    The Phantom that Chris mentions is a great boat but I fear Chad will be too light to make the most of it.

  19. #124
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    While I'm throwing ideas around;

    The Jollyboat, designed by New Zealand's John Spencer. Famed wooden boat builder John Guzwell had huge respect for John and he created some outstanding boats. The Jollyboat is a light sloop that is often sailed singlehanded.

    There's also the German Seggerling. I don't know much about it but it's an interesting boat that is sailed singlehanded with just the main, or with a jib and a crew. The long overhanging bow gives it a look some may find enchanting. It seems to use modern construction techniques but translations could be an issue. Like many German boats, it's long and slender for its sail area.

    seggerling_4.jpg

    Here's links for the Impulse and Sabre.

    The 14ft Zephyr is pretty ancient - techniques and design have moved on and I share John's reservations. Same with the Glen L IMHO.

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    I had no idea the Seggerling could be sailed with a jib.I have only seen them raced as a single hander and they are a nice boat that doesn't need as much weight as a Phantom.The Spencer Jollyboat looks good too and to my eye it shows some of the characteristics of his Cherub hulls.It looks like Chad has a good range of boats to consider.

  21. #126
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    While I'm throwing ideas around;

    The Jollyboat, designed by New Zealand's John Spencer. Famed wooden boat builder John Guzwell had huge respect for John and he created some outstanding boats. The Jollyboat is a light sloop that is often sailed singlehanded.

    There's also the German Seggerling. I don't know much about it but it's an interesting boat that is sailed singlehanded with just the main, or with a jib and a crew. The long overhanging bow gives it a look some may find enchanting. It seems to use modern construction techniques but translations could be an issue. Like many German boats, it's long and slender for its sail area.

    seggerling_4.jpg

    Here's links for the Impulse and Sabre.

    The 14ft Zephyr is pretty ancient - techniques and design have moved on and I share John's reservations. Same with the Glen L IMHO.
    Any clue on where to find plans for any of these? The JollyBoat looks like it fits the bill pretty good but the others seem to have a certain appeal.

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

  22. #127
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    If you try the e-mail on this page,I think the Seggerling plans might become more accessible http://www.segger-boote.de/uebersicht.htm .There are some build logs at http://www.ralfwilcke.com/Seggerling...erling-2a.html https://seggerlingger444.jimdo.com/ http://www.zembra.de/segger1.htm .

    It seems the Jollyboat plans can be found by following a link from http://www.jollyboat.co.nz/john-spencer.html .

    If the GP14 is still on your radar,you might contact www.gp14.org for more information-15000 owners can't all be wrong.

  23. #128
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    I did get an answer back on the Jolly boat plans, $140 a set.

    But to be hones after much review and what not I'm really leaning toward the Glen L 11' Topper. Very simple rig, just big enough for 2 adults but easily single, I like the look, short list of materials, and it don't appear very difficult to build. It is short enough I can build it in my shop over the winter and maybe by spring have a new boat. Not bought any plans yet, but I'm really leaning that way.











    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

  24. #129
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Okay in the next day or two I will order the plans for the Glen L Topper. I've done my due diligence, listened to you guys and even reviewed a lot of the Small Boat Porn thread (http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...mall-boat-pron) of Peter's. Nice looking boats on there and some mentioned here, but the Topper appears to be what I want. I wish Peter had commented on this with some input, looks like he has found a lot of small boats.

    But back to the Topper. Small and simple. The shorter length allows for less material. Open cockpit = less material and simpler build. Multi Chine gives it a more rounded look and goes away from the flat bottom. Simple Cat Rig makes it easy to set up and sail. I might can make some adjustments on the rig if I find one of suitable size on E-bay for a good price. It is just big enough for 2 adults and can easily be single handed and leave room for a cooler. I think this may be the best one for what I'm looking for.

    You guys have been a great help. It came down to this and the Jolly Boat, but the amount of material needed and the cost of the plans was the final deciding factors. When I get done with this one I will start looking for the bigger Meerkat design I"m working on or the Lincolnville wherry.

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

  25. #130
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    May we expect a build thread?It could be a good resource for other people looking at the same kind of boat for their leisure use.

  26. #131
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Most certainly. I just assumed that was mandatory.

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

  27. #132
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    I'm sure you'll have a lot of fun with that boat, and I'm looking forward to the build thread.

  28. #133
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Good luck with it, keep us posted. I loved my Topper as a sailboat, rowboat and tender.

  29. #134
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    That looks like a good choice Chad. Good luck and enjoy!
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  30. #135
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    It was actually one of my initial thoughts on what I wanted and as we went through looking at different designs and refining what I was looking for it came back up. I guess sometimes it works to go with your first guess.

    As soon as things settle for a minute I will order the plans. Before I can start I have to clear a desk and a table out of the shop. Anyone interested in a desk or a whiskey barrel table? LOL

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

  31. #136
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    Default Re: Simple and easy build and sail

    Well the Topper plans have been ordered!

    Chad
    There are three ways to do things: The right way, the wrong way and my way.

    Three Little Birds
    Love is My Religion

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