Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 38

Thread: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 1999
    Location
    St. Paul, MN, USA
    Posts
    49,425

    Default "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Apologies, but it's hard to resist poking once again at that thing on the ground to see precisely what kind of maggots will crawl out of it. (Source)

    Trump’s ‘Perjury Trap’: Confessing to Obstruction of Justice or Lying About It
    By Jonathan Chait

    Rudy Giuliani tells Axios that his client, President Trump, is currently willing to speak to Special Counsel Robert Mueller on the condition that he not be asked about two subjects: why Trump fired FBI director James Comey, and what Trump said to Comey about the investigation of former national security adviser Michael Flynn. You might wonder if the specificity of this demand sounds just a wee bit suspicious, as if Trump’s lawyers are pointing frantically at a locked door at a crime scene and shouting “Don’t go in there!” You would be right.

    On June 23, 1972, six days after the Watergate burglary, President Richard Nixon ordered that the FBI be told, “Don’t go any further into this case period!” Nixon’s comment, uttered in confidentiality, was not publicly disclosed for more than two years. When his order finally came to light, in August 1974, it struck a death blow to Nixon’s standing, forcing him to resign within a few days. Nixon later admitted his order was an “inexcusable error.”

    The Russia scandal has followed an eerily similar fact pattern to Watergate. Both cases feature as the central underlying crime the burglary of private files from the Democratic National Committee in order to give Republicans an advantage in a presidential campaign. Both cases also feature the president leaning on the FBI to quash an investigation that might connect the burglary to the president and his inner circle. The primary difference is the chronology. Nixon’s attempt to obstruct justice came as the crowning revelation of a long unfolding scandal. Trump’s similar attempt came right at the beginning. In every other way, it was worse. Nixon filtered his order to the FBI through the CIA. Trump did it directly, asking FBI director James Comey to go easy on Michael Flynn. And Trump, unlike Nixon, fired his FBI director for failing to take him up on it.

    The inverted chronology of Trump’s obstruction of justice has had the curious effect of muting its import. We are accustomed — not only by Watergate but by every criminal or detective drama — to expect evidence to mount to a crescendo over time. Nobody knows quite how to respond to the spectacle of a president committing high crimes and misdemeanors in his first few weeks in office, and then simply confessing to them casually in a subsequent television interview. So here we are, with a giant piece of incriminating evidence sitting out in plain sight for well over a year. The explanation from the Trump legal team for why the special counsel cannot ask the president about it implicitly takes his guilt as a given. It would be a “perjury trap,” they have insisted.

    A perjury trap is a real thing. The term describes when prosecutors lure a witness into giving false testimony, usually for reasons other than covering up a crime, knowing they can prove the claim was false, and then nail them for perjury. The impeachment of President Clinton was a classic perjury trap. Special Prosecutor Ken Starr asked the president about an affair with Monica Lewinsky, knowing Clinton — like most people who have affairs, especially politicians — would lie about it.

    Asking Trump about his attempt to manipulate his FBI director is not a perjury trap. The question is not extraneous to a crime, it is a crime. He was very consciously attempting to stop an investigation into his administration. The mere fact that his lawyers are discussing it well in advance indicates that the subject matter is not a perjury trap, because the “trap” aspect involves the witness not knowing beforehand that the question is designed to produce a lie. Trump’s lawyers have presumably concluded that they have no defense of his obstruction of justice. Faced with a choice between admitting to obstruction of justice, or denying it and risking perjury, Trump’s choice is to avoid the question altogether.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Hell
    Posts
    88,149

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    What has Mueller said publicly regarding his desires to interview Trump?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    huntsville, al, usa
    Posts
    3,005

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    sorry, but NO WAY should trump walk into that sheetshow. there's zero chance it could come out positive for him. the ONLY goal is to trip him up and get him on a trivial "lie". he would be best advised to steer away and if unavoidable make sure "i don't recall" is the only thing he knows how to say.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    45,967

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Gosh, “don’t ask what I’m hiding behind this door!”

    It’s hysterical that people are openly admitting that the GOP administrations propensity for lieing make him unfit to respond under oath.

    But he’s ok to be president?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    33,982

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    What has Mueller said publicly regarding his desires to interview Trump?
    Mueller hasn't spoken publicly, nor have any of his staff. To my knowledge, their communication about any aspect of the investigation has been pretty much solely through indictments and other court filings, plea deals, and occasionally the names of witnesses. We have heard more from witnesses interviewed by Mueller, who spoke after the fact. Which means that the only story we've received about the potential Trump interview has been told by the Trump camp. As a former colleague of Mueller's said the other night on CNN, "Even Mueller's mother won't know."
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    33,982

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    sorry, but NO WAY should trump walk into that sheetshow. there's zero chance it could come out positive for him. the ONLY goal is to trip him up and get him on a trivial "lie". he would be best advised to steer away and if unavoidable make sure "i don't recall" is the only thing he knows how to say.
    Is it? You know this ... how? From Giuliani?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    huntsville, al, usa
    Posts
    3,005

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Is it? You know this ... how? From Giuliani?

    it'll be the same type of railroading they did to clinton. politically motivated hatchet jobs. if it were ever you in their sights, i would suggest you avoid it too.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Sharon, MA
    Posts
    20,038

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    What has Mueller said publicly regarding his desires to interview Trump?
    I don't believe he's said a damn thing..... he's made no public statements, and nobody from the investigatory team has said a word, either.

    ...and I personally don't believe a single word out of Giuliani's mouth, regarding any 'negotiations' between the Trump lawyers and Mueller. I don't understand why Mueller would even entertain such a negotiation. There is nothing Trump could possibly say that would make the slightest difference, since the only evidence regarding conversations between Trump and Comey is testimony of 'recollections' of conversations, in which case, it's impossible to prove, one way or the other, what was actually said. There's no 'perjury' trap involved, if there's no tape recording of the conversations.

    Giuliani's role, so far, has been purely a public relations role... trying to stir up antipathy towards the Mueller investigation.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,028

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    it'll be the same type of railroading they did to clinton. politically motivated hatchet jobs. if it were ever you in their sights, i would suggest you avoid it too.
    You're so right: The President cannot be expected to tell the truth. And so the answer is that he should not have to testify because, well, it would be so unfair.
    Elect a clown expect a circus

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    33,982

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Clinton didn't do anything analogous to firing his FBI director because of insubordination respecting the investigation of "that Russia thing, the thing between Trump and, er, Russia." Let alone through his lawyers proclaim that it was verboten for a Counsel appointed in part to specifically investigate the legality of that matter to confirm under oath the President's intent. Let's be clear here: this isn't a multi-year investigation about a real estate deal, or even a tawdry "blue dress" event. And you'll recall that after a subpoena was delivered, Clinton did testify under oath.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    afloat with at least 6' of water under me.
    Posts
    56,303

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    sorry, but NO WAY should trump walk into that sheetshow. there's zero chance it could come out positive for him. the ONLY goal is to trip him up and get him on a trivial "lie". he would be best advised to steer away and if unavoidable make sure "i don't recall" is the only thing he knows how to say.
    Tripping him up is a given, he's a perpetual liar!

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    33,982

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    A man of hidden talents. Takes a special kind of contortionist to inspire 100% certainty that he'd trip over his own d#ck, when his hands are so tiny.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    45,967

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobcat View Post
    You're so right: The President cannot be expected to tell the truth. And so the answer is that he should not have to testify because, well, it would be so unfair.
    exactly, the president should not be held to the same standard of honesty because he is a god king, he creates a new reality every time he speaks.
    crazy times

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    6,028

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    exactly, the president should not be held to the same standard of honesty because he is a god king, he creates a new reality every time he speaks.
    crazy times
    And his followers here (and out in the real world) love him for it.
    Elect a clown expect a circus

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    33,982

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    So. When someone really close to Trump is convicted of something bigly, or alternatively, when one or another of the plea-deal collaborators provides corroboration and context to documentary evidence provided by the Intel community of something bigly ... what will happen? That's the actual test of whether America subscribes to the "rule of law" or not. Brings to mind the cliché about Principles being what you stick to even when they're inconvenient.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Northeast
    Posts
    15,045

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by S.V. Airlie View Post
    Tripping him up is a given, he's a perpetual liar!
    I'm pretty sure that Trump couldn't give any testimony under oath on any subject of interest to Mueller's team and not perjure himself.

    Giuliani is only trying to delay Mueller as long as he can to try to be able to say that there's nothing of interest while trying to get the probe to end as soon as possible.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Yolo County
    Posts
    5,370

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    So. When someone really close to Trump is convicted of something bigly, or alternatively, when one or another of the plea-deal collaborators provides corroboration and context to documentary evidence provided by the Intel community of something bigly ... what will happen? That's the actual test of whether America subscribes to the "rule of law" or not. Brings to mind the cliché about Principles being what you stick to even when they're inconvenient.
    My gut and my hope is that when the Thing is finally revealed, it will be surprising in it's scope and scale, in terms of the money and influence and names involved, and there won't really be any question of whether or not to imprison or hang the entire contingent of the rmtp principals and key compliciters in the GraspingOligarchicParasite party.

    Could the entire seventy percent of the country who aren't completely deluded or evil, experience a paradigm shift of democratic reawakening upon seeing the extent of the perfidy wrought by the Putin loving MICwhores? It will make the blue wave look like the mid-ocean tsunami wave that is only a foot high and barely noticeable in a boat, but carries such energy that it lifts massives amount ocean as it approaches shallower water on the way in, resulting in the classic overwhelming wall of water that wipes out everything in it's path. Blue wave.

    Say goodnight gop old guard. W, Cheney et al, you're next. Go ahead, take a European vacation. I hear there are rendition tours to exotic places.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Central MA
    Posts
    7,109

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    There's a very simple way that Trump can avoid those "perjury traps": Don't lie.

    But I guess that's too much for us to expect from our president, right?
    I rather be American than a Republican.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    23,795

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    sorry, but NO WAY should trump walk into that sheetshow. there's zero chance it could come out positive for him. the ONLY goal is to trip him up and get him on a trivial "lie". he would be best advised to steer away and if unavoidable make sure "i don't recall" is the only thing he knows how to say.
    Nothing trivial is going to bring down this president. Republicans in congress have shown that they will do anything in their power to protect him, no matter what he's done. And even if the Democrats managed to take majorities in both houses, which seems unlikely, it takes a 2/3 majority to convict in an impeachment.

    There are allegations that people in the president's campaign, perhaps even the president himself, conspired with our enemies to change the outcome of the most recent presidential campaign. There is every reason to interview the president, and find out what he knows. If collusion happened without his knowledge, a patriotic president should want those people who did such things brought to justice. If it happened with his knowledge, that's a big deal.

    This isn't like the Clinton impeachment. It's more like Nixon.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Yolo County
    Posts
    5,370

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Noyes View Post
    Who knew Liberals and Democrats were such fans of over zealous Law Enforcement... and Perjury Traps.


    Just another reason to Vote Republican!
    Because getting away with it is just as good as being honest if you don't get caught. Typical R. Pirates and thieves and scoundrels, to the last one.

    One thing the Rs and tmrp do share is the trait of having that be a guiding principle in government and business. Whatever is cheapest fastest and gets me the most, and especially before anyone not as good, rich, as me gets any. And THAT is real winning.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    45,967

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    There's a very simple way that Trump can avoid those "perjury traps": Don't lie.

    But I guess that's too much for us to expect from our president, right?
    Of course it’s simple for the average person and it is too much to expect from the GOP administration.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    45,967

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    Because getting away with it is just as good as being honest if you don't get caught. Typical R. Pirates and thieves and scoundrels, to the last one.

    One thing the Rs and tmrp do share is the trait of having that be a guiding principle in government and business. Whatever is cheapest fastest and gets me the most, and especially before anyone not as good, rich, as me gets any. And THAT is real winning.
    Good Lord Noyes is saying justice is served by allowing a witness to lie with no consequences? Man that is some faith based thinkimg.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Too far inland.
    Posts
    8,600

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Why are we still talking about a perjury trap?

    By the time Mueller & Co are done following the money, perjury will be the least of Trump's concerns.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    45,967

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Gotta say Manaforts pimping out access to Trump is impressive. I bet the GOP administration knew nothing about that.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Fredericton, New Brunswick
    Posts
    33,982

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Danny? Giuliani tells us that Mueller already knows the answers to the questions. Has the answers in writing, on tape, in evidence given by other witnesses, the whole shebang. If Trump's clean, he simply tells the truth and gets on with his governing in his bigly Trumpiness way, leaving the cloud behind. You figure he's too stupid to not know that, when every media outlet across the globe has been screaming it for months? Or do you figure Trump maybe isn't clean, and there's a reason he doesn't want to personally, under oath, tell those truths that Mueller already knows?
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    St. Simon\'s Island, GA, USA
    Posts
    5,361

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    I am a liberal and a Democrat, and believe it or not, I really do believe in law enforcement. I don't think I am alone either.

    One of the issues where I agree with the POTUS is enforcement of immigration laws. If you don't like the law, change it, don't look the other way. Selective enforcement is the path to corruption, enforce on your enemies, look the other way for your friends.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Yolo County
    Posts
    5,370

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    If he were actually led to commit to telling the truth about anything, under oath, he'd spontaneously combust, and the prosecution's case would be moot.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2001
    Location
    Memphis TN.
    Posts
    12,506

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Helter Skelter
    The Reverend

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    29,745

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    I'm not any of this actually matters. In practical terms, Trump IS above the law. No matter what crimes it's shown he's committed, no matter how damning Mueller's report is, assuming he finishes, Trump will do no jail time.

    If it looks as if the GOP will vote him out via impeachment (unlikely), he will do as Nixon did and resign, and Pence will do as Ford did and pardon him. If it does not look as if the senate will have the votes, and Trump loses 2020 election (more likely) and there is a sealed indictment waiting for him, he will resign two weeks before his term is up, and Pence will pardon him.

    Just as with Watergate, where many of Nixon's underlings did jail time, but Nixon will not, many of those who worked with, for, or defended Trump are likely to do time. Trump will walk away a very wealthy man.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Yolo County
    Posts
    5,370

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    trmp is nothing if not an outlier for everything presidential. No U.S. president could or would ever, fill in the blank, trmp did. Everything about his participation is not usual and so why the flick does the 'no president can ever be arrested or jailed for crimes' trope? Why would that be the only thing that applies to him that shouldn't break some precedent?

    Drag him out of the Oval Office with his hands zip tied behind his back. Hold his orange head so he doesn't bang it getting in the car. Try him, and put him on a gibbet. According to the rule of law.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Central Coast, Ca
    Posts
    20,401

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Trump can't tell the truth, every single statement he makes under oath is a Perjury Trap for him.

    "In the 497 days since he took the oath of office, President Trump has made 3,251 false or misleading claims, according to The Fact Checker’s database that analyzes, categorizes and tracks every suspect statement uttered by the president.
    That’s an average of more than 6.5 claims a day.
    When we first started this project for the president’s first 100 days, he averaged 4.9 claims a day. But the average number of claims per day keeps climbing as the president nears the 500-day mark of his presidency.
    In the month of May, the president made about eight claims a day — including an astonishing 35 claims in his rally in Nashville on May 29."
    Washington Post

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Yolo County
    Posts
    5,370

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    And how old is the Washington Post article ^ now? In his panic he's gonna run hot. I bet he gets to ten before the real fun starts.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    23,522

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    trmp is nothing if not an outlier for everything presidential. No U.S. president could or would ever, fill in the blank, trmp did. Everything about his participation is not usual and so why the flick does the 'no president can ever be arrested or jailed for crimes' trope? Why would that be the only thing that applies to him that shouldn't break some precedent?

    Drag him out of the Oval Office with his hands zip tied behind his back. Hold his orange head so he doesn't bang it getting in the car. Try him, and put him on a gibbet. According to the rule of law.
    I started a thread on this, and got not one reply:

    What happens if Mueller leaves the President alone, and goes after the Trump Organization for money-laundering, tax evasion, etc., etc.?

    What happens to Trump when every penny, every property is seized?

    It wouldn't surprise me to see Mr. Freakshow pitch a double-hernia psychotic rampage.

    VERY un-presidential!
    Rattling the teacups.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    2 states: NJ and confusion
    Posts
    29,745

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    I started a thread on this, and got not one reply:

    What happens if Mueller leaves the President alone, and goes after the Trump Organization for money-laundering, tax evasion, etc., etc.?

    What happens to Trump when every penny, every property is seized?

    It wouldn't surprise me to see Mr. Freakshow pitch a double-hernia psychotic rampage.

    VERY un-presidential!
    I would love it if all his assets are seized.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    victoria, australia. (1 address now)
    Posts
    49,880

    Default Re: "Perjury Traps" and Trump's dilemma

    Indeed Mike. I to do not believe Mueller has said anything at all, and his investigation seems watertight. The continuing allusions to 'leaks and negotiations' are just a symptom of the nervousness created by that absence. Tom F's comment about "That's the actual test of whether America subscribes to the "rule of law". is in the balance at the moment it seems.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •