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Thread: Sine qua non

  1. #1
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    Default Sine qua non

    -- an essential condition; a thing that is absolutely necessary.
    "grammar and usage are the sine qua non of language teaching and learning"
    Sky Blue, Boston, Skaraborgcraft . . .

    . . . have no strategy other than divide and conquer.

    Conquer, to what end? As an end in itself? In defense of what principle, then? Sky Blue says angering "liberals" is principle enough. The other two may say dividing and conquering is more important.

    All three carry water for Trump, who carry water for Putin.

    Boston admits that he does not believe that the consent of the governed is the sine qua non of legitimacy, which is in turn the sine qua non of being American.

    So, Sky Blue and Skaraborgcraft, are you Americans?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Osborne, you're trying to make sense of nonsense.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Sky Blue, Boston, Skaraborgcraft . . .

    . . . have no strategy other than divide and conquer.

    Conquer, to what end
    ? As an end in itself? In defense of what principle, then? Sky Blue says angering "liberals" is principle enough. The other two may say dividing and conquering is more important.

    All three carry water for Trump, who carry water for Putin.

    Boston admits that he does not believe that the consent of the governed is the sine qua non of legitimacy, which is in turn the sine qua non of being American.

    So, Sky Blue and Skaraborgcraft, are you Americans?
    This has been my question since 'drown it in a bathtub'.

    These treasonous burstids have been at the same game for 200 years or more.

    Lincoln called them out on their treasonous intent:

    Your purpose, then, plainly stated, is that you will destroy the Government, unless you be allowed to construe and enforce the Constitution as you please, on all points in dispute between you and us. You will rule or ruin in all events.
    OK, so you kill the Constitution. Then what?
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    OK, so you kill the Constitution. Then what?
    What made America great, ever, such that you want to make America great again?

    What other basis of legitimacy is there, apart from the consent of the governed? Tribe? Religion? Dialectical materialism?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    Osborne, you're trying to make sense of nonsense.
    I want to know if they're Americans. That would be the foundation of my relations with them. Whether, on that foundation, I can go on to make sense of what they say, is in doubt, admittedly.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    I would not put Skaraborgcraft in the same category as SB. He has a worthwhile perspective and isn’t a troll.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    No, I differ here. Regressives have nothing to offer except apologia for mediocrity, mendacity, and racism. These are not the Robert Tafts or George Wills of the world. Which is why, almost to a bot, I have them and their ( say it with me now ) spittle flecked ravings on Ignore.

    I implore you, heed my signature.
    Gerard>
    ​Freeland, WA

    Next election, vote against EVERY Republican, for EVERY office, at EVERY level. Be patriotic and stop the madness. Save the country.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I want to know if they're Americans. That would be the foundation of my relations with them. Whether, on that foundation, I can go on to make sense of what they say, is in doubt, admittedly.
    Given their records of lying, how could you believe anything they say?
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    utterly ridiculous thread. you owe me $7.50 for my wasted time.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I would not put Skaraborgcraft in the same category as SB. He has a worthwhile perspective and isn’t a troll.
    And admittedly not American.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    Osborne, you're trying to make sense of nonsense.
    I think you are kind to call it nonsense. Thinking the Earth is flat is nonsense. Selling snake oil to sick people is something else entirely.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    And admittedly not American.
    Article 21 of the United Nation's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government".
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeG View Post
    I would not put Skaraborgcraft in the same category as SB. He has a worthwhile perspective and isn’t a troll.
    Obviously.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by AlanMc View Post
    utterly ridiculous thread. you owe me $7.50 for my wasted time.
    The consent of the governed is the only basis of legitimacy, yes or no?

    You owe me $750 for diagnostic testing but I'll waive it if you answer yes or no.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Lincoln called them out on their treasonous intent:
    It is interesting that you would pick Lincoln, who stomped all over the constitution in many ways. 'Suspending' habeas corpus and jailing newspaper editors he disagreed with would have the anti-Trumps putting their eyes out in grief and calling on God to strike the goat with lightning.

    Not disputing that Abraham was a brilliant man, who pretty much single-handedly ended the Jefferson-Hamilton question of what kind of country the US would be. Meanwhile, Trump is kind of an idiot.

    But they are both doing the same thing.

    This barrage of anti-Trump howling astounds (and entertains) me ... this has all been going on for forty years but when it finally comes out in the open, you blame everything on the Donald. If you people were correct, he's a superman who has done more in two years than anyone managed over the previous forty. Wow, whatta guy !

    If so, maybe he should be Emperor !

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Article 21 of the United Nation's 1948 Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government".
    Unfortunately, due entirely to their own lack of backbone, the United Nations is pretty much irrelevant.
    Last edited by on the border; 08-10-2018 at 10:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    It is interesting that you would pick Lincoln, who stomped all over the constitution in many ways. 'Suspending' habeas corpus and jailing newspaper editors he disagreed with would have the anti-Trumps putting their eyes out in grief and calling on God to strike the goat with lightning.

    Not disputing that Abraham was a brilliant man, who pretty much single-handedly ended the Jefferson-Hamilton question of what kind of country the US would be. Meanwhile, Trump is kind of an idiot.

    But they are both doing the same thing.

    This barrage of anti-Trump howling astounds (and entertains) me ... this has all been going on for forty years but when it finally comes out in the open, you blame everything on the Donald. If you people were correct, he's a superman who has done more in two years than anyone managed over the previous forty. Wow, whatta guy !

    If so, maybe he should be Emperor !


    Unfortunately, due entirely to their own lack of backbone, the United Nations is pretty much irrelevant.
    This has all been going on for 200-plus years, and is the central vice/moral failure inhibiting our growth and our strength and our ability to take our rightful place among Nations.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    This has all been going on for 200-plus years, ...
    Sort of but until the late seventies you could go west, young man to escape the Hamiltonians. Some time right about 1980 they finally got us pushed up against the ocean and started exterminating us. The US is pretty much nazi Germany now. "Ver iss youah paperss ! you vill giff us youah paperss or face de firing sqvad ! Paperss now, you tewwowist !"

    If you have any ideas that don't comply with the catechism it's witch trial for you, you hatred-filled vile old white man ! Such as, you know, noticing that Iran is a theocracy and their punishments for females daring to breathe are pretty drastic.

    Oh sorry. That's the kind of observation only a hate-filled vile old white man could make. To the dunking stool ! Bring in the Dominicans !

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The consent of the governed is the only basis of legitimacy, yes or no?

    You owe me $750 for diagnostic testing but I'll waive it if you answer yes or no.
    Osborne, this: Toute nation a le gouvernement qu'elle mérite. indicates that your question is a Non Sequitur as even the victims of an oppressive dictatorship consent to their government if they do nothing to change it. Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    Sort of but until the late seventies you could go west, young man to escape the Hamiltonians. Some time right about 1980 they finally got us pushed up against the ocean and started exterminating us. The US is pretty much nazi Germany now. "Ver iss youah paperss ! you vill giff us youah paperss or face de firing sqvad ! Paperss now, you tewwowist !"

    If you have any ideas that don't comply with the catechism it's witch trial for you, you hatred-filled vile old white man ! Such as, you know, noticing that Iran is a theocracy and their punishments for females daring to breathe are pretty drastic.

    Oh sorry. That's the kind of observation only a hate-filled vile old white man could make. To the dunking stool ! Bring in the Dominicans !
    Your Nazi accent sounds more like Elmer Fudd.

    Last edited by oznabrag; 08-11-2018 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Wrong Toon!
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Osborne, this: Toute nation a le gouvernement qu'elle mérite. indicates that your question is a Non Sequitur as even the victims of an oppressive dictatorship consent to their government if they do nothing to change it. Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be.
    Nonsense.

    It would make just as much sense to assert that

    A woman is raped with a knife to her throat.

    She doesn't scream, therefore the man has a legitimate right to have sex with her.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Nonsense.

    It would make just as much sense to assert that
    False equivalence.
    How many run a government Vs how many adults in a population?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    False equivalence.
    How many run a government Vs how many adults in a population?
    Nonsense.

    How many Jews in the ovens?

    How many consented?
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Nonsense.

    How many Jews in the ovens?

    How many consented?
    All of the other German citizens.
    English Civil War, French revolution, US war of Independence, Russian Revolution, Mao and the Long March, Iran, Arab Spring(s).
    Stop digging Osna, you are on a looser here.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Osborne, this: Toute nation a le gouvernement qu'elle mérite. indicates that your question is a Non Sequitur as even the victims of an oppressive dictatorship consent to their government if they do nothing to change it. Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    All of the other German citizens.
    English Civil War, French revolution, US war of Independence, Russian Revolution, Mao and the Long March, Iran, Arab Spring(s).
    Stop digging Osna, you are on a looser here.
    Really?

    even the victims of an oppressive dictatorship consent to their government if they do nothing to change it. Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be
    It looks to me as if YOU are the 'looser', Mr. I-Cheerfully-Blame-The-Victim.

    Oh, and Jews were not 'citizens', so your answer of "All of the other German citizens" is incorrect. Those Jews were governed right out of existence without their consent, and you maintain stoutly that it was all their own fault.

    The only thing you can legitimately argue in this case is that the Third Reich was NOT a legitimate government.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Here's another set of circumstances:

    African slaves in the US were governed without their consent for hundreds of years.

    I suppose I am to believe that's all their fault, as well?

    Has Sky Blue hacked your login?
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Really?



    It looks to me as if YOU are the 'looser', Mr. I-Cheerfully-Blame-The-Victim.

    Oh, and Jews were not 'citizens', so your answer of "All of the other German citizens" is incorrect. Those Jews were governed right out of existence without their consent, and you maintain stoutly that it was all their own fault.

    The only thing you can legitimately argue in this case is that the Third Reich was NOT a legitimate government.
    Under Osborne's criteria they were legitimate, however as I pointed out Osborne is arguing a non sequitur.
    The slaves and victims of the Third Reich were not "governed". They were not subject to government as you are, they were not considered human. Are cattle and pets "governed". They had no part of government so the quote does not apply to them as it does not apply to livestock or your car.
    As to blame/fault, do you feel blame, are you at fault for the process that elected Trump? I suggest that you are using the word "blame" and "fault" by way of hyperbole. The word that I quoted was "deserve", which is a different concept, complicit is the word that you would better be using.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 08-11-2018 at 12:17 PM.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Under Osborne's criteria they were legitimate, however as I pointed out Osborne is arguing a non sequitur.
    The slaves and victims of the Third Reich were not "governed". They were not subject to government as you are, they were not considered human. Are cattle and pets "governed". They had no part of government so the quote does not apply to them as it does not apply to livestock or your car.
    As to blame/fault, do you feel blame, are you at fault for the process that elected Trump? I suggest that you are using the word "blame" and "fault" by way of hyperbole. The word that I quoted was "deserve", which is a different concept, complicit is the word that you would better be using.
    Well, duh!

    Your words:
    even the victims of an oppressive dictatorship consent to their government if they do nothing to change it. Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be
    This is how oppressive dictatorships BECOME oppressive dictatorships. They reclassify some class as less than human.

    If we're going to slide the rules around, we can justify ANYTHING.

    Are black people people, or NOT? From 1877 to the present day, most African-Americans have been citizens in name only. They are disenfranchised, dispossessed incarcerated and/or lynched.

    Do they consent to this? Is the fact that they don't rise up and kill Whitey en masse a justification to declare that they are 'complicit' in their subjugation?



    Further, as a US citizen who actually votes and is not given to voting for oppressive-dictator-wannabes, am I 'at fault' for the hideous travesty that is Trump?

    Can I be 'blamed'?

    Do you feel as though I 'deserve' that seething blob of corruption and greed?

    Am I 'complicit'?

    If the only way I can be seen as blameless, faultless, undeserving and non-complicit is that I violently overthrow my government ala the "English Civil War, French revolution, US war of Independence, Russian Revolution, Mao and the Long March, Iran, Arab Spring(s)", then I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.

    Your concept is just fine in your little ivory tower, man, but down here on the ground, things get really ugly, really fast.
    Last edited by oznabrag; 08-11-2018 at 12:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Well, duh!

    Your words:

    This is how oppressive dictatorships BECOME oppressive dictatorships. They reclassify some class as less than human.

    If we're going to slide the rules around, we can justify ANYTHING.

    Further, as a US citizen who actually votes and is not given to voting for oppressive-dictator-wannabes, am I 'at fault' for the hideous travesty that is Trump?

    Can I be 'blamed'?

    Do you feel as though I 'deserve' that seething blob of corruption and greed?
    Whether you deserve another Trump hinges on how much effort you put into reforming your political system so that it cannot happen again.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    Some time right about 1980 they finally got us pushed up against the ocean and started exterminating us. The US is pretty much nazi Germany now.
    What a tragedy...this sounds just as bad as the Louisville Massacre!

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Whether you deserve another Trump hinges on how much effort you put into reforming your political system so that it cannot happen again.
    We'll get to 'another Trump' in just a minute.

    Do I deserve THIS Trump because I didn't rise up and make war against my government?

    Do 40 million African Americans deserve to be violently oppressed by their government, if they don't rise up and kill Whitey?


    It's as I say, Nick, your opinion that "Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be" is OK in some rarefied, inhuman environment, where ideas take the place of real life.

    The minute you introduce the human element, that position dissolves into meaningless pap.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    We'll get to 'another Trump' in just a minute.

    Do I deserve THIS Trump because I didn't rise up and make war against my government?

    Do 40 million African Americans deserve to be violently oppressed by their government, if they don't rise up and kill Whitey?


    It's as I say, Nick, your opinion that "Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be" is OK in some rarefied, inhuman environment, where ideas take the place of real life.

    The minute you introduce the human element, that position dissolves into meaningless pap.
    Don't be daft, no one is suggesting that you are psychic. You cannot have been expected to see how badly screwed up your system is until it fell apart at your feet.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Don't be daft, no one is suggesting that you are psychic. You cannot have been expected to see how badly screwed up your system is until it fell apart at your feet.
    I once drew two weeks in the brig for asking if someone were 'daft'.


    Why will you not address my questions?


    Furthermore, your position that "Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be" is exactly the propaganda the alt right have swallowed wholesale.

    It is a dangerous position, in that these white, wealthy sons of privilege have been now been convinced that they are oppressed, and they feel well-armed enough to take on the government.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    This barrage of anti-Trump howling astounds (and entertains) me ... this has all been going on for forty years but when it finally comes out in the open, you blame everything on the Donald. If you people were correct, he's a superman who has done more in two years than anyone managed over the previous forty. Wow, whatta guy !
    These things have been with us since before the Constitution was written. They are why it was written. Your argument isn't just a straw man, it's an ass-backward straw man.

    If so, maybe he should be Emperor !

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    Unfortunately, due entirely to their own lack of backbone, the United Nations is pretty much irrelevant.
    Suppose it is. So what?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Osborne, this: Toute nation a le gouvernement qu'elle mérite. indicates that your question is a Non Sequitur as even the victims of an oppressive dictatorship consent to their government if they do nothing to change it. Their inaction legitimises their government no matter how bad it may be.
    Consent means free from duress.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: Sine qua non

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Consent means free from duress.
    You can dress for success, but you can't duress for success!
    Rattling the teacups.

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