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Thread: manafort

  1. #1
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    Default manafort

    i bet he gets off
    just say'n
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    Default Re: manafort

    Trump may pardon him. He won't be acquitted; too much evidence.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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    Default Re: manafort

    Are you trolling, or do you really think so?

    I was under the impression that the case against him was pretty much airtight.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Trump may pardon him. He won't be acquitted; too much evidence.
    Isn't he up on State charges?
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Isn't he up on State charges?
    negatory
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    Default Re: manafort

    Quote Originally Posted by oznabrag View Post
    Are you trolling, or do you really think so?
    nah i think he gets off

    mueller's evidence seems airtight
    but, the prosecutors are weak and rick gates is a huge liability
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: manafort

    We needed a special counsel for a crap prosecution like this on alleged crimes from years ago and having nothing to do with collusion on the 2016 election? Really?

    #witchhunt

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    Default Re: manafort

    Not alleged any more.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

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    Default Re: manafort

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless
    nah i think he gets off

    mueller's evidence seems airtight
    but, the prosecutors are weak and rick gates is a huge liability
    And it only takes one Trumpkin juror.
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: manafort

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    Not alleged any more.
    Has Manafort been convicted?
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default

    I still see no reason why Trump would pardon him. Trump acts solely in self-interests, and I do not see how Trump benefits from pardoning him.

    Based on reading the indictments, I thought the evidence would be more than sufficient for a guilty verdict. The judge certainly seems to be always pushing against the prosecution. Gate's credibility is much more of a liability to the prosecution than I would have thought. So I can understand Paul's opinion. I still think he will be found guilty, I suppose a hung jury is a possibility. And he has another trial in a couple of months, does he not?

    Regardless, as I said when the first indictments were released in October, Trump should suffer politically just because of association. When was the last time we remember any national campaign manager with such a background? He won't, but he should.

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    Default Re: manafort

    He's gonna be convicted, I think. The paper evidence is too significant - Gates is the "flashy" witness, but it's the paper that tells the story. There may be a "hung jury" because of this or that juror who's unable to accept what the paper actually says, I'd be very surprised to see an acquittal. And more, what I figure is that this first couple of Manafort trials are about establishing the motivation for Manafort to facilitate collusion, and document the pathways and networks he'd developed which he'd then put to that use. As I said the other day, we've yet to hear from the big dogs who flipped. This is the groundwork for Flynn.
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  13. #13
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    Default Re: manafort

    Money crimes leave paper trails (or, these days, electronic trails). The FBI has people who are very, very good at finding them.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: manafort

    Judges are often the hardest on the side they will win. It removes appeal issues.

    From what I have read, I think there will be a conviction. There's enough evidence to convict without Gates.
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    Default Re: manafort

    I doubt we'll see a unified jury go the nullification route and vote outright acquittal. If there's one dishonest but determined juror, Manafort could get a hung jury. Then it goes again.

    If Trump were to pardon Manafort, then fifth amendment protections would not apply and Mueller could really compel testimony.

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    Default Re: manafort

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    nah i think he gets off

    mueller's evidence seems airtight
    but, the prosecutors are weak and rick gates is a huge liability
    And the judge - Mr. 'RocketDocket' himself - seems more interested in moving things along (and showing off his personal legal/intellectual chops) than in making sure the full story is told. Which has the real potential for tilting the playing field...

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/prosecuto...-politics.html
    Last edited by David G; 08-09-2018 at 10:26 AM.
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    Default Re: manafort

    So... the judge says 'oops'.

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/judge-bac...153502981.html

    But I don't see any language that suggests he understands he's behaving prejudicially. If he keeps it up... and the prosecution loses this case... they will have grounds for appeal.

    Reading court reports, I am left with the impression of a judge with a towering intellect, who - under the guise of a good cause: 'speedy trials' - has for years used his position to show off that intellect in a fashion this is domineering, and sometimes a bit degrading and bullying. And it further seems as if his age (78?) has begun to catch up to him, and that some chinks are beginning to appear in his 'don't argue with me, by God, I'm ALWAYS right' facade.
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    Default Re: manafort

    We need the states to step up and bring some charges so that if our current president pulls a fast one viz a pardon, they can still be brought to justice.
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    Default Re: manafort

    If by some bit of Divine irony Manafort is acquitted and his passport is valid, look for him to never set foot in America again.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

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    Default Re: manafort

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    I still see no reason why Trump would pardon him. Trump acts solely in self-interests, and I do not see how Trump benefits from pardoning him.
    One possibility: to demonstrate to OTHER possible defendants that he's willing to use his pardon power.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Based on reading the indictments, I thought the evidence would be more than sufficient for a guilty verdict.
    'Sufficient'? From what I've read it looks more like 'overwhelming'.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    The judge certainly seems to be always pushing against the prosecution.
    My impression is that the judge is studiously impartial... and wants to demonstrate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Gate's credibility is much more of a liability to the prosecution than I would have thought.
    I know others who think that, but I don't see it. It appears that Gates fully admitted his own crimes. The jury obviously knows that a plea deal has been struck, but it also appears that Gates didn't try to soft-peddle his own criminal culpability... If I were a juror, I'd say it was a sign of credibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Regardless, as I said when the first indictments were released in October, Trump should suffer politically just because of association. When was the last time we remember any national campaign manager with such a background? He won't, but he should.
    It is extraordinarily hard to know if Manafort actually knows anything that could ameliorate his own situation, by flipping... perhaps not, although his participation in the infamous meeting would imply that he does. Regardless, even if Mueller doesn't think that Manafort knows anything that might contribute to the 'Russian' case, nabbing Manafort's rather outrageous tax and bank fraud alone would be worth it.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: manafort

    The fact that there is even a discussion about whether a conviction will be obtained shows what a charade this has become. If the Republicans hold the House, Mueller is gone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    The fact that there is even a discussion about whether a conviction will be obtained shows what a charade this has become.
    Could you explain why?

    If it's because you're certain that Manafort is not guilty, then can you tell us where to find the information that would lead anyone to that conclusion?

    This is a criminal case about bank fraud and tax fraud. Presumably, the evidence isn't testimony, so much as it is paper... the trail of transactions which would prove the crime.

    Are you aware of any reason why there wouldn't be any valid evidence?
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Manafort is the biggest fish going here, and is being tried for crimes having nothing to do with his associations with Trump.

    And those cases appear dubious, at least to luminaries like Pless.

    I think you need to expand your news horizons, Norman. You're in a very thick bubble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    Manafort is the biggest fish going here, and is being tried for crimes having nothing to do with his associations with Trump.
    No one disagrees with that. He's being tried for bank fraud and tax fraud. Now, I repeat: can you tell me what makes you think he's not guilty?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    I think you need to expand your news horizons, Norman. You're in a very thick bubble.
    I'd be delighted to. Show me where I can find facts which would lead me to believe that Manafort isn't guilty of tax fraud and bank fraud.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







  25. #25
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    Default Re: manafort

    Manafort is guilty of bank and tax fraud
    As none of it relates to Trump in any way, who cares?

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    Default Re: manafort

    Money crimes leave paper trails (or, these days, electronic trails). The FBI has people who are very, very good at finding them.
    Bearing in mind that Mueller's career specialty at the FBI, which he used to be head of, remember, was bringing down large criminal organizations in exactly the same classic process, like the Marines island hopping in the Pacific during WWll, working his way to the top of the organization using the bottom tiers as stepping stones, and specifically using the money trail and those sophisticated FBI specialties. There's a reason these two facts about Mueller bear remembering.

    I think it is funny as hell, BTW, the crap Giuliani is spouting about negotiating with Mueller to narrow the scope of his interview with the idot, and how the whole investigation thing really just should just wind up and go away for poltical reasons, ie 'not compromising the mid-terms' so, by September. (As if, should Mueller not have arrested trmp by September, the whole notion of a need for an investigation must be over, ipso facto. Is this not exactly the same obstruction of justice, in the same manner as trmp's? And the business about the 'perjury trap.' Seriously?

    Seriously? If Mueller is allowed to ask questions of his own choosing rather than those of the administration's legal team, and trmp, what? inadvertantly lies, and then later it comes out so he's guilty of perjury and has to go to jail for that, too, then that is somehow unfair for a sitting president. OMG, Rudy. That is how the investigation and the prosecution works. You should know that, ex-prosecutor.

    Am I missing something? Is the logic not obvious?

    trmp claims he didn't do anything bad, and he really, really means it, so on that basis, and because he is the president* we should just all admit that Mueller is on a which-[sic]hunt, nothing that bad happened, it's just the president's style of winning.

    So I wonder, do most criminal prosecutions involve the investigatee setting the terms of the investigation. Or is the reason for a special counsel to make sure the midterms go off without drama? And is obstruction of justice just some old-fashioned liberal BS to keep the president from doing his job and saving us from brown people without money?
    Last edited by Jim Mahan; 08-09-2018 at 01:13 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    As none of it relates to Trump in any way, who cares?
    Ohhh, I don't know.... maybe the people he defrauded? Isn't the right wing devoted to 'law and order'? In which case, don't you WANT to see people guilty of tax and bank fraud prosecuted?

    Or do friends of Trump get a special dispensation?
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Amazed, I am, that any of you give ka-blooie the time of day. At best Ultra-partisan, at worst a Ruskie troll.

    Tell me again - where's the appeal?
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    Amazed, I am, that any of you give ka-blooie the time of day. At best Ultra-partisan, at worst a Ruskie troll.

    Tell me again - where's the appeal?
    It puzzles me as well. Once it has been shown that any given B'Rat consistently has little or nothing to offer to the discussion... why go on engaging with them? A small streak of masochism? A very large streak of hyperinflated liberal sense of guilt & demented sense of fair play? Don't try the 'temporary insanity' ploy folks... the behavior is TOO consistent and longstanding. <G>
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  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    One possibility: to demonstrate to OTHER possible defendants that he's willing to use his pardon power.
    That is a stretch. The possible negatives for Trump outweigh this.

    'Sufficient'? From what I've read it looks more like 'overwhelming'.
    I said "more than sufficient", no need to be argumentative.


    My impression is that the judge is studiously impartial... and wants to demonstrate that.
    That is a fair impression. I could see how he could push against the prosecution harder because he expects a certain conviction and he wants to nip any Manafort appeal in the bud.

    I know others who think that, but I don't see it. It appears that Gates fully admitted his own crimes. The jury obviously knows that a plea deal has been struck, but it also appears that Gates didn't try to soft-peddle his own criminal culpability... If I were a juror, I'd say it was a sign of credibility.
    Yea, but Gates comes across as much more sleazy than expected. If I were a juror, I would be saying "and I should believe you now"?. Regardless, I suspect Gates is not as important of a witness as the media reports the last few days would indicate. The paper trail is probably pretty damning.



    It is extraordinarily hard to know if Manafort actually knows anything that could ameliorate his own situation, by flipping... perhaps not, although his participation in the infamous meeting would imply that he does. Regardless, even if Mueller doesn't think that Manafort knows anything that might contribute to the 'Russian' case, nabbing Manafort's rather outrageous tax and bank fraud alone would be worth it.
    This again? How long before you finally admit that Mueller does not want anything out of Manafort, he just wants to see the man go to prison for a very long time? Look at Manafort's crimes, nothing that comes out of that one meeting will yield Mueller a bigger fish. Do you really think it is that important to get Trump Jr on a smaller charge? Na, Mueller will use other means to figure that out, he won't let this big fish slide one iota. You might want to let Manafort off a little in order to nab one of Trump's family, but Mueller recognizes how big Managfort's crimes are.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    This again? How long before you finally admit that Mueller does not want anything out of Manafort, he just wants to see the man go to prison for a very long time?
    I can't 'admit' something that I have no knowledge of. I have no idea whether Mueller thinks that Manafort has something to trade, for a light sentence... or if Mueller expects nothing and is simply prosecuting a bank/tax fraud case.... Mueller is nothing, if not 'leak free'.

    The fact that Manafort sat in on the infamous meeting with the Russians 'might' mean something... he 'could' have potentially useful information.... but absolutely nothing I've seen in the press indicates that he does or doesn't.

    I'm still a big believer in not 'believing' that which can only be speculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Look at Manafort's crimes, nothing that comes out of that one meeting will yield Mueller a bigger fish.
    I think you mean to say 'nothing that has been made public so far'... right?

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Do you really think it is that important to get Trump Jr on a smaller charge? Na, Mueller will use other means to figure that out, he won't let this big fish slide one iota. You might want to let Manafort off a little in order to nab one of Trump's family, but Mueller recognizes how big Managfort's crimes are.
    Well, we DO know that, if convicted, and without any sort of plea agreement, Manafort could potentially face a sentence long enough to insure he would die, in prison... although, more likely, the sentence wouldn't be quite THAT severe.

    If I was forced to guess, I'd guess that Mueller would fully expect Trump to pardon his own son, irrespective of the evidence or charges... and even if it meant the end of his presidency. You know, blood thicker than water, etc... I joke about that with my son-in-law, all the time
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Quote Originally Posted by Sky Blue View Post
    As none of it relates to Trump in any way, who cares?
    Only things they have in common is that they are both keen on Americans adopting Russian children, and Manafort was Trump's campaign manager.
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    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    Yea, but Gates comes across as much more sleazy than expected. If I were a juror, I would be saying "and I should believe you now"?. Regardless, I suspect Gates is not as important of a witness as the media reports the last few days would indicate. The paper trail is probably pretty damning.
    Sure, Gates is sleazy. But, a person is known by the company they keep - Manafort for example. Gates simply corroborates what he knows about the paper trail, and first person evidence of what Manafort was doing. His statement about his deal with the government being revoked should he perjure himself is telling.
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  34. #34

    Default Re: manafort

    I believe this is just round one for Manafort, if Mueller's team gets a guilty verdict it will be used in future proceedings as evidence. I expect the change in the Republican party's position on Russia pre convention will be coming up and weather his Russian debt was used to motivate him to make that happen. The deep ties to Trump and Russia will be helped by this first building block.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    Sure, Gates is sleazy. But, a person is known by the company they keep - Manafort for example. Gates simply corroborates what he knows about the paper trail, and first person evidence of what Manafort was doing. His statement about his deal with the government being revoked should he perjure himself is telling.
    That is a very good point, the part about Gate's character reflecting on Manafort.

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