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Thread: Missouri rejects right to work.

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I make idiotic ignorant claims.
    This reminds me of a pitch Denny McClain threw to Mickey Mantle back in 1968.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    But I do have grandkids who get called into the office at school and kids who tell me about the trials and tribulations that kids at school have.
    lmfao
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Full cognitive function is not something one can take for granted as we age. If you have any doubts... or hints from those you interact with... it might be wise to have your MD set up some testing. As I understand it - there are often things that can be done.
    David G
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  4. #74
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Jeffers View Post
    I think it would be great to be able to send these people who are so down on unions back 140 years, before the union movement had much impact. See how they like working in a sweatshop for 12 or 14 hours per day, six days a week, under unimaginably abominable conditions, for pay that leaves their family in abject poverty. And their children are also compelled by economic circumstances to enjoy the privilege of working under the same or similar conditions when they reach age 9 or 10.

    Let them experience that for about a year and get back to us about how they then feel about unions.

    I have lots of quarrels with unions today, mostly concerning the leadership’s coziness with the corporations at the expense of the interests of the rank-and-file, but I realize that without unions there would be nothing inhibiting the exploitation of workers by the corporations.
    Many people seem to regard today's unions in the same light as those from years ago. I don't think there is much in common between them. I think union membership is down because unions are no longer (if they ever did) providing the benefits that workers want. If you look at teachers' unions and ask why teachers are so poorly paid and have to work under the conditions they do, you might see how little unions have done for teachers over the last few decades.

    I am all for collective bargaining. But unions are doing a poor job.
    Life is complex.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Many people seem to regard today's unions in the same light as those from years ago. I don't think there is much in common between them. I think union membership is down because unions are no longer (if they ever did) providing the benefits that workers want. If you look at teachers' unions and ask why teachers are so poorly paid and have to work under the conditions they do, you might see how little unions have done for teachers over the last few decades.
    I certainly see things differently--you see low wages and blame unions. Why not blame employers?

    Also you say unions from years ago were different and more effective. Then you say "if they ever did," implying that unions years ago were no more effective than they are now. When you make contradictory claims in consecutive sentences, your argument loses credibility.

    Tom
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  6. #76
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    TLT,

    here is your original ignorant anti-teacher post, complete with Art's comment you were responding to:


    Originally Posted by Art Haberland
    Most places do not care how much you do for the place as long as you don't do the least amount of work on the crew. If you go overboard and do a lot more, then they are happy to let you do it, it's a bonus to them.



    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Perhaps that is why teachers do so little work. (Yea, I know that is not a fair representation of all teachers.)


    So, adding in Art's comment just makes your response seem more ignorantly anti-teacher. You are directly accusing most teachers of doing just enough work so that they are not doing the least work on the crew.

    If you mean to be that arrogant, judgmental, and hostile to an entire class of workers who are generally motivated by the desire to help others rather than to maximize profits, then by all means continue to pretend that what you said about teachers was ok. Continue to pretend you didn't make idiotic unjustified sweeping generalizations about a profession you have revealed that you know nothing about and don't have the slightest understanding of.

    But know that the truth is obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

    Tom
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    double post--deleted
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    TLT,

    here is your original ignorant anti-teacher post, complete with Art's comment you were responding to:


    Originally Posted by Art Haberland
    Most places do not care how much you do for the place as long as you don't do the least amount of work on the crew. If you go overboard and do a lot more, then they are happy to let you do it, it's a bonus to them.





    So, adding in Art's comment just makes your response seem more ignorantly anti-teacher. You are directly accusing most teachers of doing just enough work so that they are not doing the least work on the crew.

    If you mean to be that arrogant, judgmental, and hostile to an entire class of workers who are generally motivated by the desire to help others rather than to maximize profits, then by all means continue to pretend that what you said about teachers was ok. Continue to pretend you didn't make idiotic unjustified sweeping generalizations about a profession you have revealed that you know nothing about and don't have the slightest understanding of.

    But know that the truth is obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

    Tom
    [/COLOR]
    thank you, Tom. I was waiting for somebody to call TLT out on that. I would have eventually, but I wanted to see other's reaction. TLT's quote of me is a typical far right tactic, quote just enough of somebody to make them look really bad, even if the quote has nothing to do with the subject
    "If you think you are too small to make a difference, try sleeping with a mosquito"

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  9. #79
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Nobody has to join a union, but if the union negotiates for you as an employee, you have to pay dues. The point of 'right to work' laws was to starve unions of funds by encouraging free riders who would get the benefits, but not pay the costs.
    Where it gets interesting is who gets strike pay.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    TLT,

    here is your original ignorant anti-teacher post, complete with Art's comment you were responding to:


    Originally Posted by Art Haberland
    Most places do not care how much you do for the place as long as you don't do the least amount of work on the crew. If you go overboard and do a lot more, then they are happy to let you do it, it's a bonus to them.





    So, adding in Art's comment just makes your response seem more ignorantly anti-teacher. You are directly accusing most teachers of doing just enough work so that they are not doing the least work on the crew.

    If you mean to be that arrogant, judgmental, and hostile to an entire class of workers who are generally motivated by the desire to help others rather than to maximize profits, then by all means continue to pretend that what you said about teachers was ok. Continue to pretend you didn't make idiotic unjustified sweeping generalizations about a profession you have revealed that you know nothing about and don't have the slightest understanding of.

    But know that the truth is obvious to anyone who reads your posts.

    Tom
    [/COLOR]
    Actually Art was accusing all workers of doing so. I simply gave an example where he might reconsider his comment. Then you drew an inference that I have been telling you is incorrect.
    Life is complex.

  11. #81
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    TLT,

    no free pass on this one. You are now saying "I didn't mean to insult teachers, I meant to insult everyone who works for a living instead of living off investment income. And not only will I insult them, I will blame Art for it."

    You say I am wrong about my inference. Funny, but I haven't seen you acknowledging that teachers and "all workers" work hard. All you've done is blame unions for not doing enough for workers. My conclusion is that my inference about your ignorance and hostility toward teachers is spot on.

    Tom
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  12. #82
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Actually Art was accusing all workers of doing so. I simply gave an example where he might reconsider his comment. Then you drew an inference that I have been telling you is incorrect.
    Again, nonsense. You were quick to point out when I left out part of your post, but apparently felt it was just fine to ignore half of Art's. Here's the whole thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    sadly, not likely to happen. If you ask for more money than they think you are worth (not by how much you actually do) they will get rid of you and find somebody who can do the job for how much they are willing to pay.

    Most places do not care how much you do for the place as long as you don't do the least amount of work on the crew. If you go overboard and do a lot more, then they are happy to let you do it, it's a bonus to them.
    In context, it's obvious Art is talking about how non-unionized workers have much less power to negotiate--he's not saying workers don't work hard, he is saying that employers don't pay them more when they do.

    Perhaps you should read more carefully. It does help understanding.

    Tom
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  13. #83
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Full cognitive function is not something one can take for granted as we age. If you have any doubts... or hints from those you interact with... it might be wise to have your MD set up some testing. As I understand it - there are often things that can be done.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    TLT,

    no free pass on this one. You are now saying "I didn't mean to insult teachers, I meant to insult everyone who works for a living instead of living off investment income. And not only will I insult them, I will blame Art for it."

    You say I am wrong about my inference. Funny, but I haven't seen you acknowledging that teachers and "all workers" work hard. All you've done is blame unions for not doing enough for workers. My conclusion is that my inference about your ignorance and hostility toward teachers is spot on.

    Tom
    I can find plenty of valid reasons for people to insult teachers.

    I think I have been clear about insulting people who make more than twice the median for their economic complaints. I am sure that includes many teachers. I have frequently said we should be concerned about improving the economic condition of those earning less than the median. I am sure that includes many teachers. I don't know all "teachers and all workers" so would never make the comment you think I should.

    Am I hostile toward teachers? I am hostile toward those who think that public schools are doing a good job for students. I am sure that includes many teachers.

    There is a lot of blame to go around for the condition of workers. Since this is a thread about right to work, it seems proper to express my views as to how unions fit in. But you should note that I have also placed blame on workers for not quitting their jobs and going elsewhere. I could blame employers, but that would look like piling on.

    While you are for the most part correct, you are also completely wrong.
    Life is complex.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Again, nonsense. You were quick to point out when I left out part of your post, but apparently felt it was just fine to ignore half of Art's. Here's the whole thing:



    In context, it's obvious Art is talking about how non-unionized workers have much less power to negotiate--he's not saying workers don't work hard, he is saying that employers don't pay them more when they do.

    Perhaps you should read more carefully. It does help understanding.

    Tom
    I quoted the context I was responding to. As I have said I don't think it is true. I used the teacher union example because it is one we are more familiar with.

    I could have pointed out any of the professions that lack unions and where people get paid for the work they do (more or less). But people would object to that example also.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Full cognitive function is not something one can take for granted as we age. If you have any doubts... or hints from those you interact with... it might be wise to have your MD set up some testing. As I understand it - there are often things that can be done.
    I skipped PT - psych therapy, today.
    Life is complex.

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    But probably you're happier being ignorant and hostile to those who try to do work that supports the public good instead of living off the investment money they are not lucky enough to have.
    Might as well cover this also.

    In post 50 I suggested that we give the poor a larger portion of Social Security to alleviate their need to invest. I am certain that some of those who do work to support the public good would benefit from that. People here have opposed that idea. I don't remember you speaking up for the poor - including those who support the public good.

    I looked at the current pay statistics of teachers in Wisconsin. There seem to be a number of teachers who support the public good and get rather large paychecks while doing so. I recall you abandoned the public good for some reason.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    But probably you're happier being ignorant and hostile to those who try to do work that supports the public good instead of living off the investment money they are not lucky enough to have.
    You might not be aware about the economics of teacher pensions.

    Teachers put their money both as a payroll deduction and as a reduction in pay - to pretend the employer puts some money in. Then the pension fund pays most of your contributions to current retirees. And invests the rest. Rather than your pension getting an annualized return of 11% (30 year annualized return of the S&P500) over your working years, your pension gets manybe 7%. To some extent your teacher's pension is a very poor investment. To some extent it depends on future teachers insisting on continuing in poor investment.

    You bring up another interesting issue. Teachers are paid less than many people.Those people could live as well as teachers and still invest what they earn beyond what teachers earn. They could invest and provide for their retirement. You might notice these two examples don't depend on luck. They are simply choices.

    One might think the S&P500 returns are luck. To some extent they are. But the basic idea is to diversify and find what works for you. You invest in yourself and your kids. You invest in a local business. You invest in publicly traded companies. You can even invest in your neighbors. You can certainly do better than put your money in a hole in the backyard or stay with a job that does not provide for your needs.

    You make the choices. Hoping someone will come by and magically improve your situation relies on the unlikely.

    I would expect a teacher to be better read than I. But the internet is a big place and sometimes we get lost.
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I looked at the current pay statistics of teachers in Wisconsin. There seem to be a number of teachers who support the public good and get rather large paychecks while doing so. I recall you abandoned the public good for some reason.
    Well, you speak in generalized "averages" and "medians" while I am speaking from direct experience as a teacher. After 10 years of teaching and 45 grad credits (no MA) in Wisconsin, my salary was around $44,000 per year--well under the estimated median income nationally for teachers of $58,000. I believe current max salary with an MA and incentive pay at that district is about $45,000. Seems a bit odd to me to consider any of those paychecks "rather large" (especially for the level of education required) but apparently you think differently. Though compared to the investment income you often mention here, that strikes me as inconsistent.

    As for "abandoning the public good"--well, I left my Wisconsin teaching job. I now teach in the Marshall Islands, a country where the median income is $6,476 per year (though admittedly the inhabitants of my particular atoll average about $11,000) and fewer than 28% of urban adults are high school graduates. My salary is about 36% higher than it was in Wisconsin.

    So in a sense, I think I am agreeing with you that many workers, including me, are lucky enough to have other choices when they feel their employers are not treating them well. Have I abandoned "the public good?" I suppose if your "public" doesn't include non-white people outside the U.S., I have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I don't remember you speaking up for the poor - including those who support the public good.
    Wow, you really don't remember much, then. That's one area where we have pretty much been in agreement here in other threads, and I don't disagree with you now. I see abject poverty on a daily basis during the school year.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You might not be aware about the economics of teacher pensions.
    Again, you're generalizing. My awareness is built on direct experience. Wisconsin seems to be in a unique position as far as public worker pensions go:

    By one measure the Wisconsin [state pension] system had a surplus of $2.5 billion as of December 2014, with relatively modest health care costs from allowing state retirees to buy into the state insurance system.
    SOURCE

    I'll add that your argument is that pensions offer lower returns. Of course--that's by design; it's only "poor investment" to people dedicated to the maximization of profits at all costs, which is a philosophy I have very little sympathy for. When properly funded, pensions also offer more security and less volatility. I've never felt a need to be wealthy. I do like knowing that (at least until Republicans find a way to destroy it), I won't lose the modest savings I have managed to build up.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I can find plenty of valid reasons for people to insult teachers.
    That's a fundamental difference between us. I see insults as counterproductive. Criticism and insult are not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I think I have been clear about insulting people who make more than twice the median for their economic complaints. I am sure that includes many teachers.
    You actually think "many teachers" make $116,000+ per year? You are ignorant (that's a criticism, not an insult). Take a look at US News data:

    The best-paid 10 percent in the field [teaching] made approximately $92,920
    As for this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I don't know all "teachers and all workers" so would never make the comment you think I should.
    Based on what you post here, I wonder if you know a single teacher. But that didn't stop you from posting this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Perhaps that is why teachers do so little work. (Yea, I know that is not a fair representation of all teachers.)
    Finally, this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    There is a lot of blame to go around for the condition of workers. Since this is a thread about right to work, it seems proper to express my views as to how unions fit in. But you should note that I have also placed blame on workers for not quitting their jobs and going elsewhere.
    Which is where you really show your ignorance--more like a complete unawareness of reality as it is for those who don't rake in tens of thousands of dollars of annual income from investments. When you live paycheck to paycheck, options are reduced. You really don't understand life as it is for the non-rich. You might as well be coming from an entirely different galaxy.

    I do appreciate your responses, though. I disagree with you, but I do feel like you listen to the other side.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 08-12-2018 at 10:28 PM.
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post

    Perhaps that is why teachers do so little work. (Yea, I know that is not a fair representation of all teachers.)
    If it's not fair, then what exactly was your point?
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    .........I do feel like you listen to the other side.

    Tom
    Would you mind if I took exception with this last phrase?
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Perhaps that is why teachers do so little work. (Yea, I know that is not a fair representation of all teachers.)
    sheesh - what planet do you live on?
    What have you got against teachers?
    That is a ridiculous thing to say, completely untrue and insulting in the extreme to the huge numbers of extraordinary people out there teaching our children.
    Philip K. Dick — 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Would you mind if I took exception with this last phrase?
    I don't know, Lew. I disagree with TLT on a LOT of issues, but he responds to posts that challenge his views, and he engages in conversation.

    I think he is often operating on incorrect assumptions and preconceived notions that he doesn't bother to check (as in his earlier post about "many teachers" earning more than twice the median income), and I think his reasoning is often faulty or biased (I really don't think he understands the reality of how limited many people's choices are in life), but I feel like there is some discussion going on. I don't put him on the same level as a Sky Blue or Daniel Noyes, that's for sure.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    You bring up another interesting issue. Teachers are paid less than many people.Those people could live as well as teachers and still invest what they earn beyond what teachers earn. They could invest and provide for their retirement. You might notice these two examples don't depend on luck. They are simply choices.
    OK, I'll address this again. It's the point you are most consistently, blindly, incorrect about. Yes, life offers choices. But choice is ALWAYS limited by random circumstances out of an individual's control. The "self-made man" myth is beloved by the rich, but it's just flat-out completely blatantly false. The "choices" you always bring up are not offered to everyone. You don't seem able or willing to acknowledge that.

    So, as to your specific claim that your examples don't depend on luck: you're wrong. Your examples are "choices" that people who make more than teachers could make, according to you. But getting a job that pays better than a teacher's job in the first place is very much a matter of luck. Here are a few ways luck figures in:

    1) You have to be lucky enough to be born to extremely wealthy parents. The average median income worldwide is $9,733 per year. Very few people are going to go to college or trade school if their family makes $9,000 per year, and without that education, it's far less likely they will earn more than (or even as much as) teachers earn. Even in a relatively low-paying school district, my salary of $44,000 per year puts me in the top 1.7% of income worldwide.

    2) You have to be lucky enough not to suffer from health problems, abuse, or trauma severe enough to limit your options:

    Poor people withill-health may be pushed into deeper or persistingpoverty from which they cannot escape. This kindof trap is well reported for infectious diseases andunintentional injuries in developing countrieswhere people have to pay for the cost of healthcare at the same time that their incomes are likely reduced by ill health.
    ...individuals with FASD [fetal alchohol spectrum disorder] andtheir families face a double type of costs,including the direct costs for taking care ofindividuals with FASD and the indirect costs oflost productivity and human potential. Thiseconomic burden may force them into poverty from which they hardly escape
    SOURCE

    3. You have to be lucky enough to be born in a stable safe country where warlords and bandits aren't likely to simply take everything you have because government is too ineffective to stop them. Oh, and make it a peaceful country, too--it's hard to invest your money wisely when you're living in a refugee camp.

    4. You have to be lucky enough to avoid any other pressing needs (health of family members, etc) that limit the amount of income you are able to set aside for investment.

    I could go on. But I'm curious to know whether you acknowledge that your continual claims of "choice" are flawed?

    Tom
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    Would you mind if I took exception with this last phrase?
    I think there is response but not actual listening. As you know, I taught school for four years and found the job the hardest I ever had. It required more patience, preparation and determination than I was able to give it at the time. Hats off to you and the dedicated professionals who had more to give than I could muster. My daughter, sister and mother where all teachers and they earned every penny. My daughter has since moved on to administration and now works through the summers. Being a teacher today? Oh it's just a stroll in the park.
    One of the most enduring qualities of an old wooden boat is the smell it imparts to your clothing.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    I think there is response but not actual listening. As you know, I taught school for four years and found the job the hardest I ever had. It required more patience, preparation and determination than I was able to give it at the time. Hats off to you and the dedicated professionals who had more to give than I could muster. My daughter, sister and mother where all teachers and they earned every penny. My daughter has since moved on to administration and now works through the summers. Being a teacher today? Oh it's just a stroll in the park.
    My mother worked for a period of time as a school nurse and my wife is a teacher - having taught in both private and public schools. My in-laws were both teachers and many friends are teachers or work in the public school system. Having observed the amount of time that these individuals spend doing their job, training to meet certification requirements, and the financial outlay they make for training, providing materials for students, and even food to feed students (really!), I'd say that I find TLT's observations regarding teachers to be entirely off the mark.

    Teachers give far more to their students than many will ever know.

    I know that as I have aged, I have come to more fully appreciate what they did for me as a student, and have made an effort to thank those teachers who went above and beyond and made a difference for myself and fellow students.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  29. #99
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    I could go on. But I'm curious to know whether you acknowledge that your continual claims of "choice" are flawed?
    You seem to have a different view of choice and luck than I. You put people in different circumstances and claim luck over choice. I would put people in the same circumstance and claim choice over luck.

    You have a college degree like the other teachers in your state. Some districts pay much better than your district. Choice not luck. You are a teacher. Choice not luck.

    Don't blame your poor choices on bad luck.
    Last edited by Too Little Time; 08-13-2018 at 09:38 PM.
    Life is complex.

  30. #100
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    45,805

    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    "Don't blame your poor choices on bad luck." [#100]

    It may be bad luck to be ill paid as a teacher, or even more ill paid as a sort of public teacher which is how I worked as a community organizer, but the honor of being an educator is not a "poor choice". It is one of the noble choices. Any jerk who thinks that money can make up for honor deserves the hollow spiritual life he or she leads.

    By the way, the utilitarian value enshrined in our "pursuit of happiness" means that we are a nation where people have a right to trivial values, like Trump's pursuit of wealth, just as we have a right to the values of the starving poets who shine truth in the spirit's dark corners. The value of wealth is the moral value of a cow with a full cud.

  31. #101
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Choice not luck.
    Naive parroting of neo-liberalism.
    If you are born poor in the USA today you WILL die poor. Once, when unions were stronger, people had a glimpse at choices. Now choice is reserved for fewer and fewer, and choices are fewer and fewer.

    It takes years of time and money to become a teacher. Once you've built up the considerable debt it takes (in the US) to get your qualifications you're locked in. When you've put down roots in a community you're in - it's not much of a choice when it means ripping your family out of somewhere they love and away from their family and friends and football team - to a landlocked place thats never heard of boats (dear GOD!)

    Not just in the US.
    Philip K. Dick — 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

  32. #102
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    Feb 2014
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoez View Post
    My mother worked for a period of time as a school nurse and my wife is a teacher - having taught in both private and public schools. My in-laws were both teachers and many friends are teachers or work in the public school system. Having observed the amount of time that these individuals spend doing their job, training to meet certification requirements, and the financial outlay they make for training, providing materials for students, and even food to feed students (really!), I'd say that I find TLT's observations regarding teachers to be entirely off the mark.

    Teachers give far more to their students than many will ever know.

    I know that as I have aged, I have come to more fully appreciate what they did for me as a student, and have made an effort to thank those teachers who went above and beyond and made a difference for myself and fellow students.
    My 2 grandkids are in 8 & 10th grade. In the past 6 years they have had a total of 2 teachers that merited their parents writing a letter to the school to complement a teacher. I would add a third of one grandkid's teacher to that list. I think they helped kids learn and sparked their interest in learning much more than taught.

    I think I have much different expectations of what teachers should be doing than you do.
    Life is complex.

  33. #103
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    Sep 2007
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    Northeast
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    15,539

    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I think I have much different expectations of what teachers should be doing than you do.
    Thank God for that.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



  34. #104
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    50,995

    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    "Don't blame your poor choices on bad luck." [#100]

    It may be bad luck to be ill paid as a teacher, or even more ill paid as a sort of public teacher which is how I worked as a community organizer, but the honor of being an educator is not a "poor choice". It is one of the noble choices. Any jerk who thinks that money can make up for honor deserves the hollow spiritual life he or she leads.

    By the way, the utilitarian value enshrined in our "pursuit of happiness" means that we are a nation where people have a right to trivial values, like Trump's pursuit of wealth, just as we have a right to the values of the starving poets who shine truth in the spirit's dark corners. The value of wealth is the moral value of a cow with a full cud.
    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Naive parroting of neo-liberalism.
    If you are born poor in the USA today you WILL die poor. Once, when unions were stronger, people had a glimpse at choices. Now choice is reserved for fewer and fewer, and choices are fewer and fewer.

    It takes years of time and money to become a teacher. Once you've built up the considerable debt it takes (in the US) to get your qualifications you're locked in. When you've put down roots in a community you're in - it's not much of a choice when it means ripping your family out of somewhere they love and away from their family and friends and football team - to a landlocked place thats never heard of boats (dear GOD!)

    Not just in the US.
    All of that is true. But, nonetheless, some remain clueless.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  35. #105
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    Dec 2003
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    Portland, Oregon
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    50,995

    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lew Barrett View Post
    I think there is response but not actual listening. As you know, I taught school for four years and found the job the hardest I ever had. It required more patience, preparation and determination than I was able to give it at the time. Hats off to you and the dedicated professionals who had more to give than I could muster. My daughter, sister and mother where all teachers and they earned every penny. My daughter has since moved on to administration and now works through the summers. Being a teacher today? Oh it's just a stroll in the park.
    Despite what our esteemed admin might think... being mild-mannered and soft-spoken is not the same as being reasonable. And being bluntly accurate is not the same as being rude. In this case, I'm not sure what's buggering up the cognitive process. Aging? Privilege? Motivated Reasoning? Dunningt-Kruger? But clearly something is. And the fact that he responds with more claptrap is not the same as being responsive or responsible.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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