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Thread: Missouri rejects right to work.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    The point of 'right to work' laws was to starve unions of funds by encouraging free riders who would get the benefits, but not pay the costs.
    Yes... just another, less direct, less honest style of union-busting.

    "Right to Work" -- Ain't it wonderful how creatively the propaganda can twist words?
    And just to be clear and to stay on topic, the larger topic, it is:

    The Same People behind this evil lying cheating stealing. Guess who. That's right.

    The Rs, the so-called conservatives.

    The Same People who are, and and have been since always, the ones who are responsible, directly, for the basis of the that BS pseudo-scripture that says 'the poor will always be with us.' It is their way of suggesting, in the sense of hypnotic propaganda, that there is nothing that can be done to change things because God wants more poor people than rich people, because God, or something.

    The Same People who want to rescind and abrogate every bit of social justice or reform made since the Constitution was written, starting with the Roosevelt's depression-answering New Deal.

    It is The Same People who tell us that gave us the War on Drugs. The very flicking Same goddammed People who have made sure that our national systemic racism is robust, the Same Ones who are all hot and fearful about immigrants. the Same People making sure that the global arms industry is robust, the same people that tried to keep the dominoes from falling in Indochina last century, The Same People who have made sure that U.S. 'national security interests'* are served by having permanent military bases in hundreds of countries all around the planet, and they are The Same Ones who made sure that every country south of the U.S. border is a political and economic basket case governed by U.S. funded and armed and CIA-trained military and the strong man to keep it all so, for a chunk of the 'profits.'

    *U.S. national security interests means, among other lies, 'stabilizing' a target country, which is code for keeping the poor poor, and the 'profit' rolling in. Good shareholder value.



    The Same goddamed People who continue to have sex with us against our will on pretty much every front. These are our oppressors, the Same Ones who are gave us the Walmart disaster. The Same Ones who told us after nine-eleven to help keep America strong by going shopping. The U.S.A. is in reality a big southern cotton plantation, and everyone who is not the point-oh-one percent with almost all of the wealth and income from doing anything but tend the cotton.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    how did oznabrag get mahan's login???
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    I'm a bit wound up. I just finished Steven Pinker's, How the Mind Works. Fascinating and entertaining. Uplifting even. And then I started reading Noam Chomsky, How the World Works. Also fascinating, but not so uplifting.

    I'll take your insinuation as a compliment.
    Last edited by Jim Mahan; 08-09-2018 at 08:15 AM.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    how did oznabrag get mahan's login???
    oznabrag is Mahan's sock puppet.

    Didn't you get the memo?
    Rattling the teacups.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    the small percentage you would invest on your own plus the pension versus the 401k... you most likely will come out ahead given a long long life. More over as a general rule, people who work for companies and unions that manage pensions ...
    There seems to be some misunderstanding about the solvency of pension plans. For the most part they seem to be less than solvent.

    In addition, they are poorly run. Last year when the broad market was up over 20%, the best run pension plans struggled to make their 7% (or so) goal. Pension plans do have some requirements that they meet their cash flow demand, but that only explains a small part of their ability to prosper under exceptionally good market conditions.

    But there are at least 2 exceptions to the general rule of pension plans being poorly run. One is a Texas municipality. It opted out of Social Security a long time ago and has been running a pension plan. Everyone of its employees who has retired has entered retirement with over $1 million. The second is a California pension fund that got rid of Wall Street managers and now invests in just S&P 500 tracking funds. Got rid of most of the staff as well as fees to outside managers. It is doing much better at meeting its investment goals. There are certainly others, but, in general, a pension is a big risk. You really want to die before the money dries up.

    On the other hand individuals have the ability to lose money in a rising market to a remarkable degree - even when there are no fees. A pension even a poorly run pension plan will give many people a better deal than a 401(k). But there are those who will do much better on their own without a pension.
    Life is complex.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    As if everyone gets the option of having a pension or not.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Mahan View Post
    I'm a bit wound up. I just finished Steven Pinker's, How the Mind Works. Fascinating and entertaining. Uplifting even.
    Pinker's very good. Better than Chomsky by a lot.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    There's no question that the power of Labor has been diminished over the last half-century. There's been a concerted effort to accomplish that... and it's been all too successful.

    The result? http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...omic-Disparity
    David G
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    There's no question that the power of Labor has been diminished over the last half-century. There's been a concerted effort to accomplish that... and it's been all too successful.

    The result? http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...omic-Disparity
    Yes, I love the online arguments about a person not needing a union because they can negotiate for themselves. Chances are, any company that agrees to your "terms" is pleased that you are bidding under what they wanted to give you in the first place.
    "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of Strength"

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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    There seems to be some misunderstanding about the solvency of pension plans. For the most part they seem to be less than solvent.

    In addition, they are poorly run. Last year when the broad market was up over 20%, the best run pension plans struggled to make their 7% (or so) goal. Pension plans do have some requirements that they meet their cash flow demand, but that only explains a small part of their ability to prosper under exceptionally good market conditions.

    But there are at least 2 exceptions to the general rule of pension plans being poorly run. One is a Texas municipality. It opted out of Social Security a long time ago and has been running a pension plan. Everyone of its employees who has retired has entered retirement with over $1 million. The second is a California pension fund that got rid of Wall Street managers and now invests in just S&P 500 tracking funds. Got rid of most of the staff as well as fees to outside managers. It is doing much better at meeting its investment goals. There are certainly others, but, in general, a pension is a big risk. You really want to die before the money dries up.

    On the other hand individuals have the ability to lose money in a rising market to a remarkable degree - even when there are no fees. A pension even a poorly run pension plan will give many people a better deal than a 401(k). But there are those who will do much better on their own without a pension.
    You are full of it today. Pointing out that many individuals can not be trusted to manage other peoples retirements is one thing. Saying pensions are unsustainable is another which should fall into another thread.

    The reason why pensions get insolvent is that corporations raid the pensions much like the yahoos in congress who want to raid social security claiming insolvency on some completely different matter and breaking with the trust they held in contract. When money is held in trust for others... too many people want to get a hold of it and take it for themselves. Criminal and unethical behavior is not an excuse for not funding a well run and overseen pension.

    MOST IMPORTANTLY - most people can not be trusted to safe guard their own money for retirement. It is hard to lose a well managed pension. One can lose a personal investment based on bad personal choices. We saw that in the recent 2008 financial crisis. That crisis sucked away millions of peoples 401k and now they eat dog food and at food charities in retirement.

    We all know 401k system was set up so wall street to play with more peoples hard earned money and risk it without consequence. No body ever said you can not run your own investments as well as a pension. I suggested it is finer, more productive to do that and have a well run pension than not. Most do not as they are too stupid, lazy or ignorant which is exactly why many financial investment tools for retirement are raided and stolen.


    AND - I am still waiting to here for Art tell me about his pension while doing a non union job.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 08-09-2018 at 11:13 AM.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  11. #46
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    Default Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Yes, I love the online arguments about a person not needing a union because they can negotiate for themselves. Chances are, any company that agrees to your "terms" is pleased that you are bidding under what they wanted to give you in the first place.


    Try negotiating your own pay/benefits as an airline mechanic. Lol!! And you are welcome to go somewhere else (corporate, general aviationetc...) and negotiate them, but you will almost certainly be making a lot less.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Tom

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    You are full of it today.
    just today?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    Try negotiating your own pay/benefits as an airline mechanic. Lol!! And you are welcome to go somewhere else (corporate, general aviationetc...) and negotiate them, but you will almost certainly be making a lot less.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You could move where they respect labor, pay a living wage, get quality inexpensive healthcare and grant you sustainable retirement. Our Australian friends here have it quite nice.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    just today?
    24/7/365

    Just enough grasp of most topics to successfully muddy the waters...
    David G
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  15. #50
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Saying pensions are unsustainable is another.

    MOST IMPORTANTLY - most people can not be trusted to safeguard their own money for retirement.
    There are a number of government pension plans. Both states and municipalities. A number of school plans. You might consider the funding of those programs. There does seem to be a sustainability problem.

    https://www.teacherpensions.org/blog...ent-plans-cost
    These graphs don’t even include Social Security. If you factor in Social Security contributions, it would appear as if teachers have enormous pots of money being set aside for their retirements.

    I say “appear” because that’s not how teacher pension plans work. Unfortunately, the increase in pension contributions is entirely due to paying for past pension promises that have not been adequately saved for, not to pay for actual benefits for teachers.
    It does seem many people made poor choices by working for the government or businesses that poorly handled pension plans. But then it seems that unions also made poor decisions in accepting those pension plans.

    I think I agreed that people do a poor job of investing. Several times I have offered the suggestion that Social Security give more to the poor and less to the rich. It could remove the need for the poor to try to save and invest. But the rich don't like that.
    Life is complex.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Haberland View Post
    Yes, I love the online arguments about a person not needing a union because they can negotiate for themselves. Chances are, any company that agrees to your "terms" is pleased that you are bidding under what they wanted to give you in the first place.
    In a sense my wife and I negotiate for ourselves. We are very pleased with the terms - more than an employer would pay us. Our customers are very pleased. They pay less than any other business would charge for the work. Win. Win.

    My son-in-law works for a business in California. He negotiates his compensation. He is pleased.

    I would suggest you are in error.
    Life is complex.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    I think it would be great to be able to send these people who are so down on unions back 140 years, before the union movement had much impact. See how they like working in a sweatshop for 12 or 14 hours per day, six days a week, under unimaginably abominable conditions, for pay that leaves their family in abject poverty. And their children are also compelled by economic circumstances to enjoy the privilege of working under the same or similar conditions when they reach age 9 or 10.

    Let them experience that for about a year and get back to us about how they then feel about unions.

    I have lots of quarrels with unions today, mostly concerning the leadership’s coziness with the corporations at the expense of the interests of the rank-and-file, but I realize that without unions there would be nothing inhibiting the exploitation of workers by the corporations.

    Wayne
    Last edited by Wayne Jeffers; 08-09-2018 at 01:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    I think I agreed that people do a poor job of investing. Several times I have offered the suggestion that Social Security give more to the poor and less to the rich. It could remove the need for the poor to try to save and invest. But the rich don't like that.
    we can agree that rich people like other people who do a poor job of investing. It means they can fleece the sheep rather than eat tough mutton. rich folks realize that if you have many people working for thier advantage for meager or no compensation, the wealthier they will become.

    As for the darwinistic approach of wage and reward, those who are lucky to start with educational and financial advantage look brilliant. Your successful California son-in-law most likely fell into those categories.
    Be wary of your critics, at peace with your decisions, and work hard to be a better man.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post


    AND - I am still waiting to here for Art tell me about his pension while doing a non union job.
    I have one actually, through my Union. IATSIE 77, it's not great because I do not work enough through the Union, but I have one. I also have a decent enough 401K through work.

    The problem with working union with what I do. There are only a couple of casinos that are unionized (and their union is a paper tiger, IATSIE 917) and only so many jobs to go around. I happen to work for the Casino that treats their employees the best (or did before MGM bought us out) and pays the best. There are only 9 casinos and the average is about a dozen full time employees in the theatres per house. Full time gigs are VERY hard to come by.. union or not
    Last edited by Art Haberland; 08-09-2018 at 01:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.


    This chart is a couple of years old but I doubt it has changed much. 74% of Americans have less than $100,000 saved for retirement. Tell me more about how much better off we'd be left to our own devices.

    Pension payments are a part of your total compensation, just like FICA or SS or any other employer-paid taxes on your paycheck.
    Steve

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Pinker's very good. Better than Chomsky by a lot.
    Pinker’s a Booster. Chomsky isn’t.
    Well, Mr. Botard, do you still deny all rhinocerotic evidence?

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    Default Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    You could move where they respect labor, pay a living wage, get quality inexpensive healthcare and grant you sustainable retirement. Our Australian friends here have it quite nice.


    I have all that. I am not complaining at all. But anyone who thinks they are going to negotiate their own wages in this business is fooling themselves. You apparently did not understand the context of my post.

    I make a good living and should retire pretty comfortably thanks to my 401k and a decent company match along with my own tendency to save, and what is left on my pension.
    My health insurance is quite good, the company I work for compensates their employees well, and the cost of living where I am is relatively inexpensive.
    Unions have helped that situation quite a bit.


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    Last edited by Tom Wilkinson; 08-09-2018 at 02:37 PM.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Perhaps that is why teachers do so little work. (Yea, I know that is not a fair representation of all teachers.)
    This is an idiotic ignorant claim. You don't know anything about teachers.

    Tom
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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Jeffers View Post
    I think it would be great to be able to send these people who are so down on unions back 140 years, before the union movement had much impact. See how they like working in a sweatshop for 12 or 14 hours per day, six days a week, under unimaginably abominable conditions, for pay that leaves their family in abject poverty. And their children are also compelled by economic circumstances to enjoy the privilege of working under the same or similar conditions when they reach age 9 or 10.

    Let them experience that for about a year and get back to us about how they then feel about unions.

    I have lots of quarrels with unions today, mostly concerning the leadership’s coziness with the corporations at the expense of the interests of the rank-and-file, but I realize that without unions there would be nothing inhibiting the exploitation of workers by the corporations.

    Wayne
    Plus plus on that Wayne, but that sort of history is seldom on the curriculum.
    Regarding "I have lots of quarrels with unions today, mostly concerning the leadership’s coziness with the corporations" militant unionism, strikes etc have been legislated out of existence, and negotiated 'win-win' agreements are more the norm these days. Buying shares in the corporations via superannuation investments also puts a union man on the board, often more effective than anything else. The right hates that, hoist on their own petard.
    But wage rates are at an all time low over all, union influence is not what it was.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Wayne Jeffers in the house!
    Nice to see ya Wayne, been a while. . .
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Wayne Jeffers in the house!
    Nice to see ya Wayne, been a while. . .
    ditto

    "Many fish bites if you got good bait" -- Taj Mahal
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    ". . . militant unionism, strikes etc have been legislated out of existence, . .
    skuthorp,

    “Militant unionism, strikes, etc.” were mostly illegal until the Wagner Act in 1935. That did not stop action before 1935 and it should not stop action today.

    Here at home, the West Virginia teachers strike earlier this year was totally illegal. But by virtue of rank-and-file teachers in all 55 counties organizing together in solidarity, they were successful in getting some long overdue raises for all school employees (not just teachers) and a review, still pending final action, of the WV Public Employees Insurance Agency (PEIA) which provides insurance to public employees here. (School funding and PEIA have been cut by politicians of both parties in the last couple of decades.) The rank-and-file made strides in spite of the “leadership” of the two state teachers “unions” that wanted to cave early on.

    And the norm these days is that the unions have largely been busted. Fifty years ago about one-third of workers belonged to unions; today it is about one in ten. Labor laws intended to protect workers are largely unenforced, no matter which party is in power.

    Wayne

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Ahoy Paul and David! Life got in the way of boating, but that may perhaps turn around again in the near future. It's good to see a number of familiar names still posting here.

    Wayne

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post

    This chart is a couple of years old but I doubt it has changed much. 74% of Americans have less than $100,000 saved for retirement. Tell me more about how much better off we'd be left to our own devices.

    Pension payments are a part of your total compensation, just like FICA or SS or any other employer-paid taxes on your paycheck.
    Retirement savings are just part of one's financial assets. It is unfair to ignore the other financial assets in the argument you are making. Social Security benefits are certainly a financial asset most workers have. Non-retirement savings are another. Add in Social security and a different picture of retirement appears.

    But perhaps equally important is one's age. One would expect a large proportion of those with kids would not have savings of any type until their kids are out of college.

    Of course, a lot of people make a choice to spend rather than save.

    And more, of course, if your parents have money there may be little to no need for you to save for retirement or any other purpose. But your mileage may very.

    Here is a link that one might find useful or not: http://www.fourpillarfreedom.com/vis...ricans-by-age/ . It seems to indicate that 74% (to use your percentage) of old people (60+) have less than $500K in net worth. Only 40% have less than $100K (to use your number).
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    This is an idiotic ignorant claim. You don't know anything about teachers.
    Actually it was a comment about the claim "Most places do not care how much you do for the place as long as you don't do the least amount of work on the crew."
    Life is complex.

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    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Its all about leverage.
    If your skills are rare and important you have leverage - on an individual level.
    If your skills are common but you add value because you have corporate knowledge or are a hard worker etc..., you have some leverage.
    If they are common and easily replaced you have none and you are vulnerable to being abused. The only way you get leverage is by uniting.

    On a national level, everyone can be replaced - so in the long run, nobody has that much leverage. The only way to hold your ground over the long haul is to unite and force legislative protections.

    I spent a month in the Solomon islands once.
    They have the wantok system like PNG. The land belongs to the tribe and they negotiate any commercial deals at community level. And generally get screwed because the individual communities don’t have the breath of skills and knowledge to negotiate all aspects of a large commercial deal like a mine or harvesting a forest. They are usually up against hugely resourced multinational companies who can only be managed by a government (aka a union of the people) with solid systems and processes.
    In one place, south end of Malaita, the area was completely deforested in return for a school building. That is a building only, no windows, no paint on the walls no power or sewerage – four walls and a roof, in exchange for the destruction of their cultural lands. Wantok and pride meant they didn't reach out even to their own government for assistance with negotiating. They probably had no lawyers, no accountants or tax experts - and quite probably no real awareness of the true value of their natural resources in a world market.

    Individuals, no matter how much leverage, will always be out scaled by business.
    Unions are the only antidote.

    cases of black lung had been on decline since the passage of the Coal Mine Health and Safety Act in 1969, the first comprehensive mine safety legislation. That bill almost didn’t pass. Spurred on by union groups including the United Mine Workers of America, it was introduced in the Senate after a massive mine explosion killed 78 miners in Farmington, West Virginia in 1968. President Richard Nixon hesitated to approve the legislation due to concerns over how worker’s compensation would be doled out.
    The act not only reduced on-the-job tragedies, it also marked a pivotal moment in the history of long-term miner health. The law established the agency that would eventually become the Mine Safety and Health Administration (MSHA), which would hold companies accountable for the removal of dangerous dust from the mines—venting the tunnels, partitioning sections with curtains, and tamping down dust with streams of water that prevents dust clouds from whipping up in the wake of large machinery.r
    black lung had reached an all-time low, with only 31 cases of the worst form of the disease reported from 1990 to 1999. Most experts considered it nearly obsolete.

    ...a Stanford Law School study published in the journal Industrial and Labor Relations Review in 2013 found that unionization had resulted in a “substantial and significant decline” in both fatalities and traumatic injuries.Today, however, mine unions have declined along with mining jobs. Union representation has fallen by over 50 percent in the last decades—from 14 percent in 1997 to just 6 percent in 2016. In Kentucky, where some of the highest rates of black lung are being reported, the last unionized mine shuttered its doors in 2015.


    Reporters collected records from 11 black lung clinics in Virginia, West Virginia, Pennsylvania and Ohio. They found a stunning 962 cases so far this decade—more than double the 441 cases NIOSH had documented in the last 40 years.

    Last month, [January 2018] President Trump visited the Washington, D.C., headquarters of the Environmental Protection Agency to approve an executive order that would reduce regulatory burdens on the coal and oil industries.


    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/scien...ore-180963303/


    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
    Robert Menzies - Liberal Party (Conservative) Prime Minister of Australia.

  32. #67
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    The Garden State
    Posts
    1,949

    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    My GrandFather was an ironore miner in Michigan's Upper Peninsula. He was instrumental in Unionizing those mines. He was not after more money, he was after safety. Countless friends and family member had lost their lives in those mines over the years. I know I had two great uncles I never got to meet due to it. As my Mother tells it, when the alarm whistles at the mines blew, everything in town stopped and wondered who wouldn't be coming home that night.
    "Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of Strength"

    -Edmund Burke

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    northwestern Wisconsin
    Posts
    3,330

    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Actually it was a comment about the claim "Most places do not care how much you do for the place as long as you don't do the least amount of work on the crew."
    Nonsense. Here it is again:

    Quote Originally Posted by Too Little Time View Post
    Perhaps that is why teachers do so little work. (Yea, I know that is not a fair representation of all teachers.)
    Yep. Still an idiotic ignorant claim about teachers.

    Why don't you spend 10 years in a classroom and then get back to me about how little teachers work? Or even just one year?

    But probably you're happier being ignorant and hostile to those who try to do work that supports the public good instead of living off the investment money they are not lucky enough to have.

    Tom
    You don't have to be prepared as long as you're willing to suffer the consequences.

    www.tompamperin.com

  34. #69
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Yolo County
    Posts
    5,382

    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    You don't know anything about teachers.
    This might explain some things.
    I don't care to know what the tough do when the going gets tough.

    I am interested in what the enlightened do.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Kitty Hawk, NC
    Posts
    7,001

    Default Re: Missouri rejects right to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Nonsense. Here it is again:



    Yep. Still an idiotic ignorant claim about teachers.

    Why don't you spend 10 years in a classroom and then get back to me about how little teachers work? Or even just one year?

    But probably you're happier being ignorant and hostile to those who try to do work that supports the public good instead of living off the investment money they are not lucky enough to have.
    Again you seem to have missed the portion I quoted in the original and in my response. Perhaps your internet does not show it. (You might notice that my comment you quoted does not show up in this post. Yet, I know it was there.)

    I am too old to teach for 10 years. But I do have grandkids who get called into the office at school and kids who tell me about the trials and tribulations that kids at school have. I have also posted links to stories about how little students achieve in some schools relative to other similar schools. It would appear that at least some teachers are doing the wrong work. I would not use the phrase less work.

    But probably you're happier being ignorant and hostile to those who try to do work that supports the public good instead of living off the investment money they are not lucky enough to have.
    I thought I did do work that supported the public good. I don't know how you arrive at your inference that I do not. But the reasoning process of many eludes me.

    During our last discussion about the teaching situation in Wisconsin I read the state law and some of the contracts that were offered to the teachers and looked at the wage scales and some other stuff. I arrived at a much different conclusion as to what the union could do for the teachers. I told you what I would do. I see that as trying to support the public good.

    But feel free to disagree. After all you are a teacher and I make idiotic ignorant claims.
    Life is complex.

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