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Thread: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

  1. #1
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    Default An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Two cars powered by hydrogen derived from ammonia will be tested in Brisbane today thanks to a Queensland breakthrough that CSIRO researchers say could turn Australia into a renewable energy superpower.

    CSIRO principal research scientist Michael Dolan said it was a very exciting day for a project that has been a decade in the making.
    "We started out with what we thought was a good idea, it is exciting to see it on the cusp of commercial deployment," he said.

    Tipped as the future of green motoring, hydrogen cars are virtually emissions-free and both simple and fast to refuel.

    For the past decade, researchers have worked on producing ultra-high purity hydrogen using a unique membrane technology.
    The membrane breakthrough will allow hydrogen to be safely transported and used as a mass production energy source.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-08/hydrogen-fuel-breakthrough-csiro-game-changer-export-potential/10082514

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    The Haber Process combines nitrogen from the air with hydrogen derived mainly from natural gas (methane) into ammonia. The reaction is reversible and the production of ammonia is exothermic. The catalyst is actually slightly more complicated than pure iron.

    The Haber Process for the manufacture of ammonia - Chemguide

    https://www.chemguide.co.uk/physical/equilibria/haber.html



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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    So instead of pressurised hydrogen it would be extracted from ammonia in the vehicle ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    So instead of pressurised hydrogen it would be extracted from ammonia in the vehicle ?
    From what I heard on an ABC interview the big breakthrough was the design of the membrane that allows for a portable extraction method from the Amonia. This method overcomes the dangers and difficulties in transporting hydrogen. The transportation of Ammonia is as standard. The next step is the rolling out of a point of sale delivery system and we have a non polluting fuel supply widely available.
    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    And lots of anhydrous ammonia tootling round the countryside....

    Yeah winning.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Of course as usual there'll be no Aussie development money, the technology will be acquired by the oil and gas industry and disappear or bought or stolen by China and sold back to us.
    SNAFU as usual.

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    I bet you are wrong. That it will disappear. That's right up there with the perpetual motion machine.


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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    $20 Phil.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    yes $20 Phil.
    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question

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    Bloke from Hyundai seemed very interested. I think he said Hyundai had a big contract to supply lots of hydrogen powered buses in Korea or somewhere and this technology was a game changer in terms of their ability to buy hydrogen from Australia, transport it economically and deliver it to the buses. It seems to it's also potentially a big part of the storage solution for wind and solar. It's not disappearing. Might be commercialised offshore but it's going to happen. I'll take those 2 bets. Thanks.


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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    "Might be commercialised offshore"

    Might!!? Rhe same lobby that's pushing coal will skewer this if they can. And any development will be OS……….. unless the industry super funds get on board. Can you imagine the incandescent rage the libnats would go through at that!

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    .....incandescent rage! I can't wait!!
    If war is the answer........... it must be a profoundly stupid question

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Pity Australia has virtually no added value manufacturing base. Pity yall killed off your domestic auto industry recently.

    Of course this technology is gonna be sold to Asia. Although perhaps BMW might rekindle their one time love affair with hydrogen fuels vehicles.
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Quote Originally Posted by Hallam View Post
    .....incandescent rage! I can't wait!!
    Good power source, no?

    Sorry to hear the negativity about what'll happen with the ammonia tech - but it does sound promising.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Oh it should fly, but not here.
    And the auto industry was subsidised, but had big strategic value. Killed off for petty ideological reasons, an inept RW PM didn't like unions.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    We can all hope that this "breakthrough" does not disappear down the rabbit hole that swallows most new and revolutionary power sources. We still remain with improvements in efficiency of internal combustion engines being the load carrier in transportation vehicles after many dozens of magical competitors have failed in the market place.

    Of course, ammonia is pretty nasty stuff as well.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Given, but it's not volatile, I heard that it's carbon free, and the by product is water. But it will/would make so much of todays infrastructure redundant.
    Link on amonia production. Old, they talk of something happening 'by 2018"
    http://www.essentialchemicalindustry...s/ammonia.html

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Burning the hydrogen might be carbon free, but producing it isn't.
    Bulk hydrogen is usually produced by the steam reforming of methane or natural gas. The production of hydrogen from natural gas is the cheapest source of hydrogen currently. This process consists of heating the gas to between 700-1100C in the presence of steam and a nickel catalyst. The resulting endothermic reaction breaks up the methane molecules and forms carbon monoxide CO and hydrogen H2. The carbon monoxide gas can then be passed with steam over iron oxide or other oxides and undergo a water gas shift reaction to obtain further quantities of H2. The downside to this process is that its major byproducts are CO, CO2 and other greenhouse gases. Depending on the quality of the feedstock (natural gas, rich gases, naphtha, etc.), one ton of hydrogen produced will also produce 9 to 12 tons of CO2.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Ammonia is just a way to store energy. I presume the energy density will be better than batteries, so this is another step towards fossile free transportation. According to articles in Wikipedia, ammonia seems to be possible to produce from electricity via hydrogen. The trick is to produce electricity without generating CO2. This is definitely possible, but still not as cheap as coal or oil.

    Erik

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    The talk was of large solar farms to produce the electricity, Aus let some of that technology go OS for lack of capital as well.
    But I presume there'll be some pollutant in cell production. Nothing is completely free, especially energy.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    So, what happens to the wasted Nitrogen molecule in this system? Do you wind up with oxides of nitrogen?
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Laughing gas? Gotta be better than CO and CO2.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post

    Good article, Andrew. Thanks
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Oh it should fly, but not here.
    And the auto industry was subsidised, but had big strategic value. Killed off for petty ideological reasons, an inept RW PM didn't like unions.
    I thought you said it was going to disappear. Like not happen. Oil and coal companies buy the tech and shelve it. Like they did with the perpetual motion machine. I agree it will be commercialised offshore. But not that it will disappear. We will continue to do what we do best, export raw material, but now it will be ammonia, produced from hydrogen, produced from solar and wind. We wil probably get rent from the land the solar and wind farms are built on.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Great article Andrew, even I could understand it!

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I thought you said it was going to disappear. Like not happen. Oil and coal companies buy the tech and shelve it. Like they did with the perpetual motion machine. I agree it will be commercialised offshore. But not that it will disappear.
    See my remarks re China.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Thank you for posting this, it's very interesting.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Good read Andrew, thanks.
    It will be interesting to see the outcome of the new technology.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    One of my bosses from35 years ago, a grouchy old school chemist from Pennsylvania, told me that the world were idiots for not using hydrogen fuel. Made sense then, makes sense now. And before you freak out, I handle 300 bar H2 every single day.

    Mickey Lake
    'A disciple of the Norse god of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker'

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    Default Re: An Aussie breakthrough, Hydrogen as a practical, transportable fuel

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    Laughing gas? Gotta be better than CO and CO2.
    Nitrogen compounds can also have detrimental environmental impacts.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
    -William A. Ward



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