EU Regulations: Flotation

[Pitsligo]

I just read John Hartmann's article on the Ilur in Small Boats Monthly (and it's a well-written article, too; kudos, John). In it he writes:

"Vivier designed the boat with built-in flotation in compliance with EU regulations..."

(https://smallboatsmonthly.com/article/ilur/)

Could someone tell me more about those regulations? Must all boats of a size or type have such flotation? I'm concerned because I imagine I might one day like to move to Europe (Sweden and the Stockholm Archipelago have me particularly love-struck), bringing my 19' sloop, Buecphalus, with me. She has no such flotation, and it would be virtually impossible to add it after the fact.

I know I'm probably fussing about nothing --not only because I expect the regulations have some accomodation, but because that dreamed-of emigration is likely just a pipe-dream-- but some awareness of the regulations would probably be worthwhile as well as interesting.

Thanks,
Alex

[John Meachen]

You need to refer to the Recreational Craft Directive,but only if you are planning to build boats for sale or sell a home built boat within five years of building it.For an existing boat,you shouldn't have any problem with shipping it and using it.You probably ought to be more concerned about VAT,which somebody is likely to want from you.

[skaraborgcraft]

^ What John said. Regs apply to new builds. I just waved goodbye to my family skiff i built 5 years ago, could not sell it before. Boats usually call into the Azores to pay import duty if intending to stay in the EU as they have a better rate of tax. You might want to look into that, it could be cheaper to ship into Holland or Germany rather than Sweden direct.

[Pitsligo]

Right. That five-year rule sounds like the one my boat would fall under. Sensible way of doing things, it is.

So even though I have owned my boat for 32 years, I would still need to pay VAT? Nuts. Every time I encounter VAT, I get more confused...

Thank you for the flotation info --and the warning about VAT.

Alex

[skaraborgcraft]

Call it import duty. I recently paid import duty on a 32 year old aluminium sump guard bought in auction in Japan, and paid almost more in import duty than the entire cost of it and shipping, same for some rudder pintles i bought off Duckworks. Try to avoid bringing in anything directly to Sweden, everything here is expensive!

That 5 year rule applies to boats being "in-use" within the EU. There was exemptions for foreign made boats that were already in the EU between certain dates. But, if i bought a Bayliner or Hunter on US Ebay and shipped it to the UK, i would then have to bring it up to EU standards before putting it into use, there was several companies that would certify boats as being compliant, for a large fee.
I do not know what your boat design is, but if it can trace its roots as far back as a design prior to 1950, then it will be exempt anyway. A few boatbuilders went that way after the introduction of the RCD, as they could not afford to compete with factory production and product testing.

[mohsart]

I've heard of this regulation before and it confuses me...
Does it apply to all kinds of boats? What is the punishment?
I was never informed about it during my studies at a boat building school, and none of the students had floatation built in.
I know a couple of boatbuilders and they typically don't install floatation tanks in their boats.

/Mats

[Breakaway]

^ RCD is 20 years old ( or more). Here is a summary from Wikipedia.

Directive 94/25/EC, as amended by 2003/44/EC, applies to new and second hand recreational craft from 2.5m to 24m in length, personal watercraft, marine propulsion engines and components placed on the market for the first time after 1998. Products excluded from the scope of the Directive include: canoes, kayaks, gondolas, pedalos, sailing surfboards, surfboards, racing boats, historical craft, craft built for own use provided that they are not subsequently placed on the market during a period of five years, commercial vessels carrying passengers (covered by separate legislation), submersibles, air cushion vehicles, hydrofoils, and external combustion steam powered craft.

Link to full article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recrea...raft_Directive

Kevin

[skaraborgcraft]

I've heard of this regulation before and it confuses me...
Does it apply to all kinds of boats? What is the punishment?
I was never informed about it during my studies at a boat building school, and none of the students had floatation built in.
I know a couple of boatbuilders and they typically don't install floatation tanks in their boats.

/Mats

I do not want to generalize, but from what i have seen built at most schools in Sweden have been copies of traditional boats, most likely designed before 1950, so they would be exempt. Punishment for selling a boat on the open market without a builders plate was 5 years in prison. Exemptions for small boats under 2.5m, racing boats, canoes and gondolas.

[Pitsligo]

Call it import duty. [...] Try to avoid bringing in anything directly to Sweden, everything here is expensive!

Right. Got it. And I'm glad to have the heads-up. I should check with my father who, newly an Italian citizen, just brought his Beetle Cat from the US to Venice.

That 5 year rule applies to boats being "in-use" within the EU. There was exemptions for foreign made boats that were already in the EU between certain dates. But, if i bought a Bayliner or Hunter on US Ebay and shipped it to the UK, i would then have to bring it up to EU standards before putting it into use, there was several companies that would certify boats as being compliant, for a large fee.

I feel a bit dense, but am I reading it correctly that...

Directive 94/25/EC, as amended by 2003/44/EC, applies to new and second hand recreational craft from 2.5m to 24m in length [...] placed on the market for the first time after 1998.

...Means that my ~7m LOA sloop, designed and built in 1986, does not need to be brought up to EU standards because it was built before 1998?

Alex

[Breakaway]

...Means that my ~7m LOA sloop, designed and built in 1986, does not need to be brought up to EU standards because it was built before 1998?

That is how I read it.

Kevin

[mohsart]

I do not want to generalize, but from what i have seen built at most schools in Sweden have been copies of traditional boats, most likely designed before 1950, so they would be exempt. Punishment for selling a boat on the open market without a builders plate was 5 years in prison. Exemptions for small boats under 2.5m, racing boats, canoes and gondolas.

OK, so it's the design date not the launch date that matters.
At my school 99% of the students (that build new boats, some restore old ones) build boats based on old boats, yes, but I wouldn't call them copies.
My boat, for example is based on one built in 1920, but I changed the underwater hull shape a bit, added 10 cm of freeboard, scaled it down to 90% of the original, added fore and aft decks, and changed the rig from sprit to gaff.

/Mats

[keith66]

One reason i gave up trying to build boats for a living was the RCD, I was at the Greenwich wooden boat show back in the 90's & was one of the boatbuilders there who founded the Wooden boatbuilders trade association, But for men like John Kerr & Jack chippendale plus the others running the WBTA the RCD would have been far more draconian than it is today.
I believe that the RCD destroyed the home grown small boatbuilding industry in the UK. It favoured large scale manufacturers & added a level of beauocracy & costs that few small outfits could enterrtain.
The few who remain are often building historical replicas or otherwise restricted to exempt category craft.
Penalties are severe, About 8 years ago one narrow boat builder was fined £50,000 for selling a canal boat that was not compliant. He was bankrupted & lost his house. But did the rcd make boats safer? Of course it didnt, the boating press is full of stories of Keels falling off yachts & seacocks that fizz & fail when they go in seawater.

[skaraborgcraft]

Right. Got it. And I'm glad to have the heads-up. I should check with my father who, newly an Italian citizen, just brought his Beetle Cat from the US to Venice.



I feel a bit dense, but am I reading it correctly that...



...Means that my ~7m LOA sloop, designed and built in 1986, does not need to be brought up to EU standards because it was built before 1998?

Alex

That will be placed on the market, or in use, "in the EU" between those dates; if your boat was not in the EU, then its not exempt. There was quite a trade in bringing in boats from Florida to the EU before all this came about, and took a large chunk of profit for those who was buying cheap and re-selling in the EU, to the point where all the effort was not worth the payback. If you are importing the boat for your own use with no intention to sell it, ever, you could say whats the point of meeting the standard, however, insurance companies will very different about it, and a minimum of third party cover is expected by anyone entering a marina. Worth checking on a policy if "RCD Compliant" is mentioned anywhere on a third party insurance, cant say i recall seeing it.


Mats, historical or drawn before 1950, even if built new are exempt. Your minor changes from a set of plans could be easily disregarded as being minor, as long as it was bulit in the same materials. Even a plywood skinned boat built in clinker of an old design would be exempt. After discussing my situation and builds with the WBTA in the UK, it was suggested i might just add a brass plate saying "historical replica" and forget hull identification numbers and builders plates.

As Kieth mentioned, RCD benefitted big corporations and put the little man out of work, and yes there has been deaths aboard RCD plated vessels, though generally mass produced standards were raised, but probably no better than the small yards would have been working to anyway.

EDIT: Pitsligo, what class is your boat? If there are already examples here, they most likely will have gone through the process, and that can make getting a plate quite easy and cheaper than having the full monty inspection/survey/report.

[gilberj]

The CE standards set a clear bar for what constitutes a safe boat. They are comprehensive. The fact that some builders are trying to get away with poor quality materials is not the fault of the standards. The RCD has tended to kill the small boat shops, and I think that is an unintended consequence, (or maybe intended???). Basically the RCD standards do the same thing as the standards around the manufacture of automobiles. I don't hear many folks suggesting we should relax the safety standards that apply to cars.A
close study of the standards, I'd suggest you would not find too many stupid ideas. They define levels of stability, buoyancy, watertight integrity, water drainage, wiring and electrics, fuel systems...... etc. Each boat is assessed to meet a specific type of operation whether in protected waters, partially protected waters, coastal or offshore (D, C, B, A).
There is no doubt that when you try to make a system fool proof, the fools will win.
I am not a big fan of large monetary penalties, unless there is some significant level of intent on the part of the enforcement subject. I obviously do not know the case you refer to. We are seeing in all comparative countries a tendency to use large fines as a way of being seen to be doing something. Unfortunately, some lives are being ruined, sometimes for a mistake. This is not right....

[skaraborgcraft]

The CE standards set a clear bar for what constitutes a safe boat. They are comprehensive. The fact that some builders are trying to get away with poor quality materials is not the fault of the standards. . They define levels of stability, buoyancy, watertight integrity, water drainage, wiring and electrics, fuel systems...... etc. Each boat is assessed to meet a specific type of operation whether in protected waters, partially protected waters, coastal or offshore (D, C, B, A).

I have an issue with mass produced boats supposedly meeting the critera set out, being given a builders plate and certified, only to discover that when the boat is actually capsized in real water, and not a flat swimming pool, a certain boat could not be righted, leading to a son watching the death of his father by drowning after going hypothermic after repeated attempts to right the boat. That particular company had to withdraw that boat from the market, and it was replaced with a Mk2, suggesting that that the original did indeed have design flaws, yet it was still sold on the market as being "safe". Im not going to mention the company, but i followed this tragic episode, and as far as i could find out, no one was held responsible and there was a token fine paid by the builder, that was far less than anything dished out to others who had been deemed to not comply. It was a sad revelation that corporate protectionism is working well, and the occasional dead person are the cost of doing buisness . I expect that young lad wont ever forget that day, and neither will I.

[gilberj]

I think you may be referring to the rules for vessels less than 6 meters....The boat must be fitted with flotation in such a way that it can float upright in a swamped condition. Unfortunately it can also float and be stable inverted. A sad tale for sure and we can all find examples where the safety measure did not work as planned/hoped. It does not even require someone to be the 'fool'. sometimes it is just bad luck.
The plan-hope is to reduce those accidents, you cannot eliminate them. If, after investigating an event, the rule is found to be wanting and can be reasonably modified to prevent reoccurrence of that event it can be done.
To blame the Standards because of a certain event, is of little value, unless the standard itself caused the fatality or whatever....in which case it should be reviewed and amended as necessary.

[Pitsligo]

That will be placed on the market, or in use, "in the EU" between those dates; if your boat was not in the EU, then its not exempt.

Um. So my boat *will* need to be made RCD compliant with flotation? In particular, for insurance purposes? From the loophole scenario you describe, it sounds like yes, she will. It also sounds like I should research the RCD for any other ways she'll need modifying.

Pitsligo, what class is your boat? If there are already examples here, they most likely will have gone through the process, and that can make getting a plate quite easy and cheaper than having the full monty inspection/survey/report.

She's a "Stanley 19," of which only four have been built (mine is Hull #1), all of whom live in the US. There's a "Stanley 21", my boat's bigger sister, in Majorca, but I'm not sure how that changes anything.

So it sounds like I should brace myself for the full monty.

Drat! Another impediment to my Baltic pipe-dream.

But thank you for the information.

Alex

[skaraborgcraft]

Alex, much as it would be great to cruise in your own boat, there is a plentifull supply of cheap boats here in wood or the other stuff, Folkboats, Albin Vegas and many sorts of small motor sailers built specifically for this area. I think the only way your boat would be exempt is if it is only "temporary imported", which is usually anything up to 12 months, with possible extensions; that would at least give you breathing space to sort out everything, or just go to turkey for a few months and then re-enter the EU for another 12 months, if she is a US flagged boat and you can keep her US flagged, then you might get away with it. Even within the EU there can be taxes, in Portugal a boat was liable for "wealth tax" after 12 months, as they would consider the boat imported. Despite the attempt to harmonize some rules, each country can still have their own extra rules and regulations to adhere to. I believe all private yachts going into Turkish waters must now have holding tanks, and big fines for "pumping out" along the coast.

[cstevens]

Alex, given the difficulties you would certainly experience in making Bucephalus legal for the EU I think you would be far better off leaving her here and finding another boat over there. And because I'm just a really helpful guy I'd be happy to look after her for you during your sojourn to the Baltic.

[John Meachen]

No need to do anything to the boat.It pre-dates the regulations.Beware the VAT!

[Pitsligo]

Thanks, folks; this is all great information. Especially the warnings about VAT!

If I decide to vacation over there, or make a reconnaisance in force for a future emigration, then yes, I'd definitely do well to find a local girl to take sailing. I have a soft spot for Folkboats. But there is part of me that would like to emigrate, and I can't imagine not bringing Bucephalus with me wherever I go. I did not choose her name for any magnificence on my part (hah!), but for that legendary companionship. If that emigration happens, it sounds like my best bet would be to consult a professional on all the aspects of RCD I might need to attend to. I doubt flotation is the only discrepancy between an RCD-compliant craft and an ultra-traditional Downeast-built sloop-boat.

Speaking of which, any other RCD details I should anticipate might trip me up? She's a very traditional, plank-on-frame, non-self-bailing, unpowered "day sailer" that I have taken cruising for as long as a month at a time. I use "wag bags" as a head, and have a little kero Optimus stove in gimbals. No electrics; all running lights are kero (DHR) and navtronics are handheld.

Purely an intellectual exercise at the moment, I know, but... Thoughts?

Alex

[cstevens]

My only thought is take me with. It all sounds very Riddle of the Sands. Poking about the Baltic in a small boat with no electrical system. A perfect adventure.

[Edward Pearson]

You normally have to pay Import duty (usually roughly 10%) and VAT (roughly 20%) for importing a boat into the EU.


But in July, yachts were part of the reaction to US steel tariffs, and the Import duty just went up to 25%, for yachts and recreational craft from USA.

With yachts the Import Duty is applied to the CIF value (boat plus the shipping and insurance price).

You then pay 20% VAT on that value after 25% import duty is applied.


So you would pay roughly half of the what your boat is worth on the open market to bring it into the EU/ Sweden in taxes at present plus the cost of shipping in a container if it will fit inside one. Shipping from the west coast is alot more than the east coast.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

The RCD regs apply only if the craft is to be "placed on the market".

All-sorts of other regulations may apply.


Duty is charged on price + shipping, vat on top of that

[skaraborgcraft]

Ouch... We're the Government we are here to "help"

Nothing to do with government. More to do with unelected bureaucrats making rules that suit a corporate agenda across the EU, just like it is in the US.

[stromborg]

The RCD was voted on and adopted by the European Parliament.

"The European Parliament (formerly European Parliamentary Assembly or Common Assembly) is the parliament of the European Union (EU). EU citizens elect its members once every five years. Together with the Council of Ministers, it is the law-making branch of the institutions of the Union. It meets in two locations: Strasbourg and Brussels."

Interpretation and enforcement of laws passed by elected leaders does indeed fall to "unelected bureaucrats" who work for the electeds.

[Pitsligo]

The RCD regs apply only opening if the craft is to be "placed on the market".

Well that makes it all a lot easier, anyway. Ain't no way I'll ever sell Bucephalus, and once I'm dead flotation, etc., will be the next person's problem.

All-sorts of other regulations may apply.

Yes, I'm rather worried about that. My impression is that US regs are rather "wild west", fend-for-yourself minimalist --PFDs, flares, running lights, horn/bell, no overboard discharge of oil, sewage, or trash-- while the EU takes a bit more interest in the details. Anyone have any favorite nit-pick regs that they think I ought to know about?

So you would pay roughly half of the what your boat is worth on the open market to bring it into the EU/ Sweden in taxes at present plus the cost of shipping in a container if it will fit inside one.

That's a very clear breakdown. Thank you.

I have no idea what the boat would sell for. Hull #3, Summer Joy, is currently for sale for $15k (https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...ted-States)(No financial connection to me, etc.), so maybe that will inform the situation, even though she has a motor and Bucephalus doesn't. Hull #4, just built, as yet unsold(?) was rumored to have a price tag around $150k (yes, I typed that correctly). My boat is insured for $35k replacement value (which is low-ball for a new boat, but what I can afford), so...

Ouch. Even at $15k, that's gonna sting. At least she'll fit into a container.

I was hoping the current US administration might allow me to qualify for refugee status (), but maybe I'll wait it out until after Trump is out, in hopes of sanity returning to our national trade policies and that import duty dropping.

My only thought is take me with. It all sounds very Riddle of the Sands. Poking about the Baltic in a small boat with no electrical system. A perfect adventure.

Oh yes. You can see why it's a favorite pipe-dream of mine.

Alex

[Ensio]

Your boat would need also meet certain equipment regulations; I would guess that most of those would be easy (pdf’s, fire extinguisher, paddle etc). What I’ve seen about US boats they all would need bigger running lights...

And as you noted above, it’s best to find a reliable specialist to give advice...

[mohsart]

I'm wondering about how anyone would find out.
If you don't have a septic tank or if you empty your tank at sea, and the coast guard are nearby, you'd get busted.
But the only case when anyone would know that you don't have floataion tanks is if you capsise and the boat sinks. My guess is that you'll be fine if you avoid that scenario.

I should add that the Swedish archepelagos can be tricky, back in the 80ies when I served in what I believe is called the auxillary naval school in english (kind of a plant school for navy officers, I didn't follow that route but never mind). Anyway, we had some Canadian students working with us for a week or so and they were terrified. There are grounds everywhere, and they may end up being in the most unexpected places, so you need to know how to navigate.

Edit: Check out where I live for perspective https://kartor.eniro.se/?c=56.108188...l%C3%B6%22;geo (I hope the link works)

/Mats

[Peerie Maa]

I don't think that decked cabined boats need buoyancy. I think that requirement only applied to open dinghy's.

3.3. Buoyancy and flotation - The craft shall be constructed to ensure that it has buoyancy characteristics
appropriate to its design category, and the manufacturer's maximum recommended load according to section 3.6. All habitable multihull craft shall be so designed as to have sufficient buoyancy to remain afloat in the inverted position. Boats of less than six metres in length that are susceptible to swamping when used in their design category shall be provided with appropriate means of flotation in the swamped condition.
3.4. Openings in hull, deck and superstructure - Openings in hull, deck(s) and superstructure shall not impair the structural integrity of the craft or its weathertight integrity when closed. Windows, portlights, doors and hatchcovers shall withstand the water pressure likely to be encountered in their specific position, as well as point loads applied by the weight of persons moving on deck. Through hull fittings designed to allow water passage into the hull or out of the hull, below the waterline corresponding to the manufacturer's maximum recommended load according to section 3.6, shall be fitted with shutoff means which shall be readily accessible.
3.5. Flooding - All craft shall be designed so as to minimize the risk of sinking. Particular attention should be paid where appropriate to:
cockpits and wells, which should be self-draining or have other means of keeping water out of the boat
interior,
ventilation fittings,
removal of water by pumps or other means.

http://www.marinesurveysltd.co.uk/re...ve_summary.htm
As a decked Friendship sloop you need to consider 3.5 not 3.3.

[John Meachen]

Its the stuff you don't anticipate that could get you.Downflooding angle,ladder for reboarding etc.For a temporary stay it would probably be better to buy an existing boat in the area and at the conclusion of the stay put it on ebay with no reserve to get rid of it.

[Pitsligo]

What I’ve seen about US boats they all would need bigger running lights...

Hey! I got Bucephalus's running lights from an EU company! Doesn't that make them okay?

I'm wondering about how anyone would find out.

Well, yes, there is that. But it'd ruin my whole day if anyone thought to check and decided I was out of compliance.

I should add that the Swedish archepelagos can be tricky...

What wonderful waters! Yes, the link worked. It reminds me of the gunkholing I used to do growing up in Maine. More than ever, I want to bring Bucephalus over and have some fun! Where are you on that chart?

3.5 Flooding [...] Particular attention should be paid where appropriate to:
cockpits and wells, which should be self-draining or have other means of keeping water out of the boat

See, it's stuff like this that makes me nervous: Bucephalus is decked, but her cockpit isn't self-draining; she just has a walloping big pump. Would that be a problem, or not? So yes, I think I'd need to ask a specialist.

Its the stuff you don't anticipate that could get you.Downflooding angle,ladder for reboarding etc.

Exactly. "Downflooding angle"? Don't know a thing about it. "Ladder for reboarding"? Never had one, never needed one, but ought I to have one? Again, a specialist starts to look imperative.

Again, thank you all!

Alex

[gilberj]

Alex, are you thinking of moving to Europe? If you are going for a brief time, say months, I doubt the RCD would apply, probably till a year.

[Pitsligo]

Alex, are you thinking of moving to Europe?

It would be more accurate to say that I'm pipe-dreaming of moving to Europe.

If I were to go over for a short time --say, to recon an area I might want to move to-- I'd probably see if I could charter a boat, or purchase something there for the duration of my visit and then sell it upon my departure.

I expect you're probably right that for a few months visit the RCD would be irrellevant, and I'd love to pack Bucephalus into a container some year and head for Europe. I know the 6-metre crowd are always shipping their boats around the globe in containers, so a 19' sloop shouldn't be a big deal --but 6-metre owners seem to have bigger budgets than I do.

A summer exploring the Baltic, such as this fellow did from his home in England: http://andy.midsummerenergy.co.uk/teal/baltic.html, seems pretty wonderful. I doubt Teal was RCD compliant.

Alex

[NickW]

A summer exploring the Baltic, such as this fellow did from his home in England: http://andy.midsummerenergy.co.uk/teal/baltic.html, seems pretty wonderful. I doubt Teal was RCD compliant.

Alex

As Teal was built in 1914, she doesn't have to be.

Nick