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Thread: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by peb View Post
    So that would work with a jib on a Wykeham-Martin type furler? What is its advantage over a wire rope luff?
    It would: I made a jib and a code zero for a gaff cutter, and my client had already a Wykeham-Martin furler and I bought a modern furler with an endles line for the code zero. He told me the modern furler was the best. I think the anti torsion line is better then wire too, it won't untwist.The clamps and thimbles for the anti torsion line are not cheap though.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    It just happens that I have some old 7x7 SS wire in my shed. Having never spliced wire before I had a go at a Molly Hogan/Flemish splice (what is a 'crane' splice?). My first ever attempt turned out reasonably neat and was easy to do. Didn't try seizing the throat yet, but that can't be too hard with a bit of practice. Anyway, my conclusion from this little experiment is that wire can be easy and simple, so remains on my list of possibilities. Having said that, there are a lot of really exciting comments in this thread regarding the merits of dyneema... and even Jay, who I thought was a hard core traditionalist, is giving it the thumbs up.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I have heard "crane splice" applied to a Molly Hogan, a sort of half Molly where the wire is bent around and the ends are seperated and spiraled down a bit, and a sort of simplified Liverpool splice. The latter two are not a good idea. In construction work, logging, and such, there are field expedients that work well enough if you don't really tax the gear.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    There are basically two ways of splicing wire, not counting the Flemish Eye:

    The Liverpool Splice where you spiral the strands being tucked in around "their" strand, ie you can make a tuck, move the spike down the wire and make another etc; then do the same for the next strand.
    This is quite similar to a sailmakers splice when talking fiber rope.
    The splice may slip under load and should therefore be served.

    The Crane Splice is more like a normal splice on fiber rope, instead of going around each strand you go across the lay, under two and above one.
    It is not likely to slip, but should be served anyways.

    /Mats
    Yes the avatar depicts me; yes I drew the comic boat pic, it's a joke on the pop song I'm not a robot by Marina and the diamonds

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I should add that the Liverpool Splice is much quicker, but in my experience much harder to get even.
    I have heard the Crane Splice being called an Admirality Splice and an Australian Splice as well.

    /Mats
    Yes the avatar depicts me; yes I drew the comic boat pic, it's a joke on the pop song I'm not a robot by Marina and the diamonds

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I heard/read that the Flemish splice has 75% breaking strength of the wire while a Liverpool Splice could be 100 %. You might scale up the wire a bit. I think it goes better with galvanised then stainless because stainless is more slippery stuff. Anyway I used the Flemish splice also on my catamaran with stainless.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I'm throwing my lot in with jmadison, jpatrick and peb on this one. I use dyneema for the standing rigging on Marianita, easy to work with (no blood spilled) and has a nice hand when you reach for it. When I have to do it over I'll go for the heat set stuff, I fought the stretch for a long time before it finally settled down. As for hanks, making up soft shackles from short lengths of dyneema is quick work, I have them in various sizes all over the boat. I think there are pictures on jmadison's thread about making up his rigging.

    As for the unlikely event of someone simply walking by and cutting your rigging...Does this actually happen? And, this stuff is rather difficult to cut, I have found the best thing is a fresh ceramic blade knife. Anything less than razor sharp just makes a mess.
    Steve

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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I have 6mm dyneema runners on my 560 sq ft fractional rig. It gets loaded up really hard when we are pressed. I replace it every 5 years. Not expensive and easy to splice. And very kind to sails, varnish, humans

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Once you work with Dyneema, you'll never look back. Order extra to put together some soft shackles, too.
    -Dave

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by FF View Post
    I heard/read that the Flemish splice has 75% breaking strength of the wire while a Liverpool Splice could be 100 %. You might scale up the wire a bit. I think it goes better with galvanised then stainless because stainless is more slippery stuff. Anyway I used the Flemish splice also on my catamaran with stainless.
    Something like that, the Flemish eye is weaker than splices, but I don't think either of the Liverpool or Crane splices are as strong as 100% of the wire, my guess would be perhaps 90%. I think there is a chart in my book on theatrical rigging, but it's at my workspace and I'm on vacation now so cannot check it.
    If finished with a pressed aluminum or cupper (depending on the wire material) collar, the Flemish eye would be as strong as a splice. But if you do that, why not just bend the wire and press the collar on? I see no big advantage of going through the trouble of making a Flemish eye in that case.

    /Mats
    Yes the avatar depicts me; yes I drew the comic boat pic, it's a joke on the pop song I'm not a robot by Marina and the diamonds

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Brian Toss reckons around 70% for the Flemish splice, and close to 100% for a well made Liverpool. In my case I don't think it is much of an issue since the rig is small and the mast short (not to mention stout, I might have got a bit carried away beefing up the specs).

    I agree about using the copper fittings, if going that route, why splice, it would seem just as good to go conventional nicopress type fittings.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I found a quote in another book by the Swedish rigging master Pille Repmakare, kind of a legend over here.
    I won't put in quotation marks since I'm translating.
    The Flemish eye has about 80% of the strength of the wire, a tad bit less than the strength of a normal splice.
    Unfortunately he doesn't say how strong the "normal" splice is.
    He also says that the Flemish eye is finished, after the eye is made, with laying the strands in-between the strands of the wire (kind of like worming) at least the distance of half of that of the eye size, and then parcelled and served.
    He says it is a good method when making an eye that goes over the mast-top resting on hounds, because it is softer than a spliced eye. My interprenation of that is that the stretch is less in that situation, a "normal" splice would work as good or better when made around a thimble.
    Another thing about this:
    When you intend to serve the whole thing, it is much easier so first serve the part that is to be the eye before starting to splice, then serve the actual splice (and possibly the wire rope), with a Flemish eye you cannot do that.

    /Mats

    /Mats
    Yes the avatar depicts me; yes I drew the comic boat pic, it's a joke on the pop song I'm not a robot by Marina and the diamonds

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I'm no rigger. All of it I've done has been under protest, and with many caveats & disclaimers. I read threads like this to educate myself. So I'm not speaking from keen knowledge when I mention that Brion Toss, our local rigging guru, is quite enthusiastic about synthetic rigging. Also - his blog is worth reading -- http://briontoss.com/index.php/blog/
    David G
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Brian Toss reckons around 70% for the Flemish splice, and close to 100% for a well made Liverpool.
    That is a very important detail. Flub the splice, or leave it less-than-fair, which is easy to do if you're inexperienced, and you won't get anywhere close to that strength. Liverpools, by their nature, distort the wire considerably, and distortions are where stresses build and splices (any knots) fail.

    He also says that the Flemish eye is finished, after the eye is made, with laying the strands in-between the strands of the wire (kind of like worming) at least the distance of half of that of the eye size, and then parcelled and served.
    THANK YOU! I'm fairly well versed in Liverpool splices, but I've long wondered about the best way to finish out a Flemish eye (mostly because I was indoctrinated that the only true eye splice worth considering in wire was a Liverpool, and thus never done much with Flemish eyes, which is silly).

    Alex

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Flemish (molly hogan) with the strands laid between the strands of the finished wire ....
    Somebody got a photo of that? I'm confused.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    No, continue towards the unspliced bit of the wire, away from the eye

    /Mats
    Yes the avatar depicts me; yes I drew the comic boat pic, it's a joke on the pop song I'm not a robot by Marina and the diamonds

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Flemish (molly hogan) with the strands laid between the strands of the finished wire ....
    If I understand correctly:

    1) Unlay enough of the wire, in the two parts necessary for the eye, so that when the eye is complete there are long tag ends at the crotch of the eye that extend back along the standing part.

    2) Tease out those tag ends into their six individual strands, and lay the strands into the cuntlines of the standing part, "worming" the standing part with those yarns for a distance equal to half the length of the eye.

    3) Parcel and serve to bind those worming strands against the standing part.

    Yes, Mats? Do I have that right?

    Just working through the process in my head, if I were turning the Flemish eye with 7x7, once I was at the stage of worming I might cut out yarns and taper those strands as they go. Not as critical as with a Liverpool or Crane, but maybe worthwhile? Any thoughts on that?

    Alex

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Here is a piece of old galv 7x7 I use for small work around my place. I just beat it up pulling some roots,trees and small stumps so I nipped the ends off and threw in a new molly hogan, which takes about 2 minutes. Just now I added a racking seizing to show here.. For a boat, I'd add another racking seizing, then serve it with nylon seine twine and paint it black. For a thimble, the nylon would be worked up closer, I might give a squeeze with a pair of vice grips close to the thimble, which had the teeth ground smooth.
    The pliers I use to pull it also have the teeth ground off, so as not to damage the seizing wire.
    So, what is the other way its finished?
    I'm keen on those racking seizings. The weakness Ive read in this splice is that they unravel... the racking seizing gets tighter as it moves, sorta like a constrictor.
    Racking seizing is making a figure 8 , of course.
    Thanks Alex, but I can't quite "see" it in my head.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    That's an interesting method Bruce. You described before but it is easier seeing your pic. What Toss describes is after forming the eye, to 'helix' the remaining wire one strand at a time down the standing part (hence that worming effect mentioned by mohsart), and then serve over the whole helixed part to stop it slipping. Maybe someone has a pic?

    I've been making a few calls to see what is available around here. Found a place which will supply synthetic (a mere 5000km from where I am) at a cost of roughly 1.7 times the cost of stainless 1x19. 1x19 is available everywhere. Also found a rigger supplying 7x7 galv (made in India). So far 7x7 in stainless doesn't seem to be available except for very small diameters.

    While gathering info it dawned on me that an advantage of the synthetic is knowing what it is. So far I am aware of two manufacturers (hampidjan and DSM) in the world, both reliable... so if it is genuine dyneema or dynice all is well. But with wire, the world is awash with not such good material. Knowing if wire is any good might be hit and miss???

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    If I understand correctly:

    1) Unlay enough of the wire, in the two parts necessary for the eye, so that when the eye is complete there are long tag ends at the crotch of the eye that extend back along the standing part.

    2) Tease out those tag ends into their six individual strands, and lay the strands into the cuntlines of the standing part, "worming" the standing part with those yarns for a distance equal to half the length of the eye.

    3) Parcel and serve to bind those worming strands against the standing part.

    Yes, Mats? Do I have that right?

    Just working through the process in my head, if I were turning the Flemish eye with 7x7, once I was at the stage of worming I might cut out yarns and taper those strands as they go. Not as critical as with a Liverpool or Crane, but maybe worthwhile? Any thoughts on that?

    Alex
    1. Split the wire in two parts enough for the eye + some
    2. Form the eye and make an overhand knot at the "head" of it
    3. Lay the left part of the split wire into the right part of the eye and vice versa
    4. Unlay the strands of the wire halfs and "worm" the standing part with the strands
    5. Parcel and serve

    Edit: As for tapering, I see no problems with that, but perhaps make the "worming" part a tad bit longer.

    /Mats
    Last edited by mohsart; 08-10-2018 at 05:33 AM.
    Yes the avatar depicts me; yes I drew the comic boat pic, it's a joke on the pop song I'm not a robot by Marina and the diamonds

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    While gathering info it dawned on me that an advantage of the synthetic is knowing what it is.
    Um. That's an excellent point.

    Post #55: Thanks, Mats. Sounds like I understood it.

    Alex

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Today I finished the last eye-splice for my 6 mm heat set dyneema rigging (New Enland Ropes HTS-STS). It is a standard masthead rig with cap stays, fore and aft shrouds, fore stay and split backstay. The forestay utilizes a Hyfield lever, the backstay incorporates a pair of fiddle blocks attached to a cascade that runs through a yoke. The shrouds all have turnbuckles. So far I plan on using small soft shackles for hanks and have been playing with different sizes.

    The splices use a modified brummel and a 20" bury (80x). The taper is about 12". I stretched each shroud after splicing both ends with a 2 ton come-along. I sat in the middle of each tensioned shroud to stretch it further. Pretty consistently I got 4" of stretch. There's about 4.5" of travel in the turnbuckles and I'm able to leave them close to fully extended. Dyneema chafe sleaves are fitted on the cap shrouds at the spreaders. I have a lot to learn regarding the tuning of this rig.








    Overall this process has been dead easy. I've had a lot of practice raising and lowering the mast repeatedly.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Fine job. Looks great. Thanks for posting.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Great pics. Is the knife to cut the dyneema something exotic?

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Google dyneema scissors. I can’t remember the brand I bought, but it was night and day once I got them and much safer.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I forgot to mention something tangential, pro synthetic.: Initially I replaced all trailer winch wire with the wide black winching straps. To avoid the dangerous kinking of wire strands. But since I learned about Dyneema I also use Dyneema on my trailer winch drum instead of the old black webbing strap.
    And that has an interesting and most welcome side effect.: The winching force goes down noticeably. Why?: With the old wide straps, the drum fills up quickly, and the winching purchase goes down. To a point where the winching force (on the handle) can become unbearable. (Happened to me last week while trying to winch up a neighbours water-filled Lugger.)

    By comparison, using 5-6mm Dyneema instead of the wide webbing strap fills the drum much slower, so the winch loses purchase much less in the process of winching up the boat.

    -Hope I made myself clear enough . C

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    I used dyneema recently in a jib that is set flying. The splices allways look very neat. In the past it would have been wire.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Yes Craic your explanation makes sense. Useful observation.

    Thanks to all the positive comments re synthetic I have been persuaded to see if this old dog can learn some new tricks. I have placed an order for Dynice dux. If it doesn't work out I can always go back to good old wire (preferably galv).

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Has anyone ever used poured zinc wire rope ens with galv wire ? They seem the obvious solution.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    When I was a kid, my father had the local boat yard put in a new upper shroud on his boat using a poured zinc fitting. Three years later the wire pulled out of the terminal fitting and dad was forced to have a new mast built.
    If a poured zinc fitting is used, it should have the end of the cable splayed out and the strands turned back like fish hooks before the pour.
    That was a lesson that was learned the hard way!
    Jay

  31. #66
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    Default Re: Wire or synthetic standing rig?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    When I was a kid, my father had the local boat yard put in a new upper shroud on his boat using a poured zinc fitting. Three years later the wire pulled out of the terminal fitting and dad was forced to have a new mast built.
    If a poured zinc fitting is used, it should have the end of the cable splayed out and the strands turned back like fish hooks before the pour.
    That was a lesson that was learned the hard way!
    Jay
    Agreed Jay, I've read that advice elsewhere.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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