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Thread: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

  1. #316
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Boston View Post
    Intentionally and selectively ? More like they were chased and murdered around the globe a few times.
    What happens to a group within a community that choses not to assimilate?

    They are an interesting case as culturally jews had permission to soil themselves with money loaning and laundering which Jesus and the bible preached against that led to their survival. Once the Knights Templars were disbanded by the Holy Roman Church, the international jewish financial system became the international way to move money and secure trading debts across the Mediterranean. Those jewish centers and families flourished for centuries. The wealthiest - Rothchilds by no accident picked the red shield as their symbol instead of the red cross of the Templars as it was a sign of money lenders and financial traders. Some can argue that Federal Reserve Bank is still owned and controlled by the Rothschild family
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 08-09-2018 at 05:27 PM.
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Very silly. Again, Merely moving people from one place to another on earth does not make more of them, nor necessarily make their impact any greater. We're all on the same planet. Now, perhaps you don't want any more of those nasty parasitic Homo sapiens in your neighborhood, but don't pretend it's out of concern for anything greater than your own comfort; they're going to live somewhere.

    Immigration (with reasonable controls) is indeed good for the US, IMHO.
    50 points for Griffendore

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Correction to #293 (just being anal )

    When Lawrence joined the RAF he enlisted under the name John Hume Ross (Not T.E. Shaw as I stated), but he published 'The Mint' in 1932 as T.E. Shaw, although posthumous editions credit his real name.
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Very silly. Again, Merely moving people from one place to another on earth does not make more of them, nor necessarily make their impact any greater. We're all on the same planet. Now, perhaps you don't want any more of those nasty parasitic Homo sapiens in your neighborhood, but don't pretend it's out of concern for anything greater than your own comfort; they're going to live somewhere.

    Immigration (with reasonable controls) is indeed good for the US, IMHO.
    Don't be silly. Where they go they must occupy space. They must be brought the means of living and their waste must be removed. Schools, fire departments, energy, the entire infrastructure of syphillisation. Then they reproduce.

    Don't pretend you have no interest in your "comfort" being eliminated. Suppose they decide to stand elbow to elbow on your property from one corner to the opposite. They're all equal to you, eh? One must make room.
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Don't be silly. Where they go they must occupy space. They must be brought the means of living and their waste must be removed. Schools, fire departments, energy, the entire infrastructure of syphillisation. Then they reproduce.

    Don't pretend you have no interest in your "comfort" being eliminated. Suppose they decide to stand elbow to elbow on your property from one corner to the opposite. They're all equal to you, eh? One must make room.
    Maybe Keith counts on the cold winters to scare most immigrants from the southern climes to not disturb his space. He is well aware of population pressures as he most likely been forced to leave Northern California decades ago. Very few leave the best of California life except under duress, economics or family pressures.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 08-09-2018 at 07:17 PM.
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    I'm still wondering why California has been destroyed by immigration...
    Because you don't live here and don't know anything about the place.

    Now, I have to admit that this is personal preference. If you grew up in Detroit slums, perhaps you would prefer that environment. But as a person who grew up in the countryside and who has a more-than-passing appreciation for the natural world, immigration has been a disaster.

    It would be easy to write reams about what's been lost and ruined. Then you'd all just pass over it as "nostalgic rantings of an old fool". Ask anyone who lived in California in the forties, fifties, sixties. I could go on for days. But that would be pointless. You people would just blow it off with trite platitudes.

    Seattle, Sitting Bull, Geronimo, Chief Joseph, John Muir, Anselm Adams, I guess they were just a bunch of right-wing hate-filled old fools also.

    I am kind of shocked that this is going on here, in a wooden boat community, I'd expect more respect for the natural world. But reading most posts, this may as well be Forbes or Bloomberg. Live and learn, I guess.

    It is annoying the way many of you equate opposition for a mass influx of people with an ignorant old white guy culture of hatred. That's so stupid. Since 1965 immigration has sextupled. Immigration, at a reasonable level, is not the same as swamping our world with acres of ticky-tacky boxes.

    Will you now berate Malvina Reynolds as a hate-filled old witch and right-wing hag ? Every time I drive by what was once my favorite meadow, acres of California poppies - have you ever seen even one ? - I have to sing a chorus or two. Nothing now but little boxes and it's not even Daly City, another place in the California that you admire.. (btw, y'all should adopt little boxes as your theme song, fits this place so well it's a crackup)

    I note that those claiming that mass immigration is great are not offering to host fifty people in their back yards. Put up or shut up, as they say.
    Last edited by on the border; 08-09-2018 at 08:53 PM.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    Because you don't live here and don't know anything about the place.

    Now, I have to admit that this is personal preference. If you grew up in Detroit slums, perhaps you would prefer that environment. But as a person who grew up in the countryside and who has a more-than-passing appreciation for the natural world, immigration has been a disaster.

    It would be easy to write reams about what's been lost and ruined. Then you'd all just pass over it as "nostalgic rantings of an old fool". Ask anyone who lived in California in the forties, fifties, sixties. I could go on for days. But that would be pointless. You people would just blow it off with trite platitudes.

    Seattle, Sitting Bull, Geronimo, Chief Joseph, John Muir, Anselm Adams, I guess they were just a bunch of right-wing hate-filled old fools also.

    I am kind of shocked that this is going on here, in a wooden boat community, I'd expect more respect for the natural world. But reading most posts, this may as well be Forbes or Bloomberg. Live and learn, I guess.

    It is annoying the way many of you equate opposition for a mass influx of people with an ignorant old white guy culture of hatred. That's so stupid. Since 1965 immigration has sextupled. Immigration, at a reasonable level, is not the same as swamping our world with acres of ticky-tacky boxes.

    Will you now berate Malvina Reynolds as a hate-filled old witch and right-wing hag ? Every time I drive by what was once my favorite meadow, acres of California poppies - have you ever seen even one ? - I have to sing a chorus or two. Nothing now but little boxes and it's not even Daly City, another place in the California that you admire.. (btw, y'all should adopt little boxes as your theme song, fits this place so well it's a crackup)

    I note that those claiming that mass immigration is great are not offering to host fifty people in their back yards. Put up or shut up, as they say.
    John Muir died in 1914. You must be pretty old if you have fond memories of the California he knew. And if you’ve walked through the Hetch Hetchy Valley you must be pretty good at holding your breath.

    As for the rest of your rant, the last sentence of your post makes it obvious that you can’t state your position coherently without creating silly straw men —and that goes for Osborne too.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    the last sentence of your post makes it obvious that you can’t state your position coherently without creating silly straw men
    "Silly straw men" ? Ex-cuuuse me, the twenty-five million people who have swamped california are certainyl not made of straw ! Would that they were, given the recent fire situation.

    You are just throwing meaningless words around. The destruction of California is fact.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post

    It is annoying the way many of you equate opposition for a mass influx of people with an ignorant old white guy culture of hatred. That's so stupid.
    It's not at all stupid when the opposition comes from someone who has written with such hatred of other people as you have shown.

    Sure, I can understand your concern about the environment; in fact, I share it. But when that concern is coupled with your abuse, insults and hatred of other cultures, the fact that people see a link between your hate of other peoples and your opposition to immigration is completely and utterly logical.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    The destruction of California is fact.
    It's been all down hill from Portola.

    nice to see all of the okies that came to LA in the 1930s, much less all those "undesirable" slavs and southern europeans earlier that the chandlers and the other brahmins ranted about escape your wrath.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    While our Californian friends may lament how things used to be, it's basically a case of NIMBY. Now, it may be perfectly legitimate, there are some things I don't want in my back yard either. But don't pretend it's ecological; everyone who moves to California comes from this planet.

    FWIW, I left northern California with great relief in 2000 . We were there for five years while my wife was in seminary, and I had a serious love-hate relationship with the place; lots of very good stuff, lots of bad. I don't regret leaving at all (well, now and then in February).
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    ... linking your hate of other peoples and your opposition to immigration is completely and utterly logical.
    Oh yeah, Me and Malvina, yup. Gotta lot of hate there. And John Muir, don't foget him. Better throw in Teddy Roosevelt, Margaret Sanger, Joseph Brant, hundreds of other hate-filled old white guys. Heck, anybody who doesn't lap up the platitudes you cheerfully spread around. Yup. That's us all right.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    While our Californian friends may lament how things used to be, it's basically a case of NIMBY. Now, it may be perfectly legitimate, there are some things I don't want in my back yard either. But don't pretend it's ecological; everyone who moves to California comes from this planet.

    FWIW, I left northern California with great relief in 2000 . We were there for five years while my wife was in seminary, and I had a serious love-hate relationship with the place; lots of very good stuff, lots of bad. I don't regret leaving at all (well, now and then in February).
    Apparently California has been destroyed...so you can't go back now. I'm having trouble pinning down the exact moment of destruction, but never fear--I've got an appointment with a spiritual medium to see if I can get some sort of declarative statement from John Muir to clear things up.

    I'd like to devote more time to this, but I'm so damned busy building housing for all of the scary brown people squatting on my land.

    Rest assured that I am trying to be reasonable while I deal with all of this...

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    It's not at all stupid when the opposition comes from someone who has written with such hatred of other people as you have shown.

    Sure, I can understand your concern about the environment; in fact, I share it. But when that concern is coupled with your abuse, insults and hatred of other cultures, the fact that people see a link between your hate of other peoples and your opposition to immigration is completely and utterly logical.
    There is nothing wrong about not liking the defacto current immigration policy. We all can agree on that.
    Everyone hates when open space is removed. Water access is curbed. When traffic is increased. Crime is more prevalent. Social services are stretched beyond capacity.

    I think there are a few people here who haven't lived in the golden state are enjoying the loss of the quality of life. For them, it gives them some weird satisfaction knowing the greater glow which has been the California dream is now less intriguing.

    On the border knows what he saw, for him it was some wonderful halcyon days. California has always been filled with immigrants since the Spaniards. To recall a time when it was less populated isn't racist, it is a fact.
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Keith nailed it...it's basically NIMBY with a lot of spin to try and disguise it.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    Keith nailed it...it's basically NIMBY with a lot of spin to try and disguise it.

    Jeff C
    The world is my back yard, buddy. Not in my F ing back yard.

    If you don't see the beauty destroyed you're blind, or you just don't know any better. And you never will, because it's been destroyed, and you are further blinded by ideology.

    On purpose. What purpose?

    You see a Japanese print. A pine tree. What gave it that poetic shape? Nature. Meaning, un-interfered with by man. Nature writes poetry man struggles to comprehend, let alone reproduce, even as a stunted, crippled facsimile.
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The world is my back yard, buddy. Not in my F ing back yard.

    If you don't see the beauty destroyed you're blind, or you just don't know any better. And you never will, because it's been destroyed, and you are further blinded by ideology.

    On purpose. What purpose?

    You see a Japanese print. A pine tree. What gave it that poetic shape? Nature. Meaning, un-interfered with by man. Nature writes poetry man struggles to comprehend, let alone reproduce, even as a stunted, crippled facsimile.
    A lotta great words there. Some of them are even in some sort of order. Good for you.

    But it's all smoke unless you have ideas for solutions. If your solution is for me not to exist then you're in luck, because in the real measure of time I'll be gone in a heartbeat. Nature has a plan for my DNA and it's all e=mc2 till the lights go out for everything.

    And as far as the rest is concerned, you can trust this...you wouldn't understand my "ideaology" if it slapped you on the fanny and called you Hazel. You're too busy trying to be clever while you seem not to grasp the fact that your BM's are just as smelly as the rest of us, so please, take some ownership during the sippy breaths as you pontificate.

    I'm still trying to be reasonable, but it is taking some effort.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Let’s turn this thread down a notch.

    We can quibble about an open door immigration policy and lament the loss of what we had before we turned into a parking lot and strip malls. These things are not mutually exclusive.

    I wish we were as passionate about helping our veterans, the millions of homeless and the mentally ill. We don’t take care of our family here now and now there are more coming.
    Last edited by Ted Hoppe; 08-10-2018 at 12:57 AM.
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    Oh yeah, Me and Malvina, yup. Gotta lot of hate there. And John Muir, don't foget him. Better throw in Teddy Roosevelt, Margaret Sanger, Joseph Brant, hundreds of other hate-filled old white guys. Heck, anybody who doesn't lap up the platitudes you cheerfully spread around. Yup. That's us all right.
    Not a shred of that relates to what I said, which is that if someone speaks of foreigners with hate - as you do - then it's reasonable to think that their hate influences their views in immigration.

    Oh, and saying that those who are against immigration have some good points, which is what I've done, is not spreading platitudes.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    There is nothing wrong about not liking the defacto current immigration policy. We all can agree on that.
    Everyone hates when open space is removed. Water access is curbed. When traffic is increased. Crime is more prevalent. Social services are stretched beyond capacity.

    I think there are a few people here who haven't lived in the golden state are enjoying the loss of the quality of life. For them, it gives them some weird satisfaction knowing the greater glow which has been the California dream is now less intriguing.

    On the border knows what he saw, for him it was some wonderful halcyon days. California has always been filled with immigrants since the Spaniards. To recall a time when it was less populated isn't racist, it is a fact.
    But the point is that On The Border IS a racist, as his earlier posts show. Someone who has shown virulent, violent hate of that sort towards people from other lands cannot complain if people assume his views on immigration are based on that hatred.

    As I've noted earlier, I can understand your concerns about the environment and your lifestyle. If California is like Australia in terms of immigration settlement patterns then perhaps your concerns could be addressed with some more imaginative policies, as I wish they were here.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Let’s turn this thread down a notch.

    We can quibble about an open door immigration policy and lament the loss of what we had before we turned into a parking lot and strip malls. These things are not mutually exclusive.

    I wish we were as passionate about helping our veterans, the millions of homeless and the mentally ill. We don’t take care of our family here now and now there are more coming.
    I'm happy to take it down a notch, but it takes a village...

    If we continue to talk about this we need to frame the debate properly--very few people (including Keith and myself) are advocating any type of open door immigration policy. Generally speaking, that sort of labeling is provided mainly by the Right Wing in our country to scare people into taking a nativist, know nothing stand on immigration. It's purely and simply a form of dog whistling.

    I also believe that most immigrants are revenue positive to our country within five years, so the idea that we flushing money down the drain to continually prop up a bunch of alien freeloaders is just more fear-based spin. If I'm wrong about that I'm sure someone will point it out.

    Immigration, migration, relocation, overpopulation, conservation...all of these things are complicated, and defy easy solutions, and both of our major political parties have often distorted and conflated these issues in order to promote a particular agenda.
    That's always been a roadblock to making progress, and everybody seemed to have a neat and tidy two-aspirin cure that could be distilled nicely into a 140 character tweet or thirty-second tv ad.

    And alas, those were the good old days, that simpler, more naive world when disparate people like George W Bush and Barack Obama both could be considered middle of the road moderates on immigration.

    Nowadays things are are a lot more sinister, and there's an evil little piece of scum in the White House who would make people suffer horribly for the sake of his ego and to gain a few votes from like minded bigots.

    This man will play on your fears, he will humiliate and degrade people for fun, and he will use your deeply held convictions as a sword and put children into cages after separating them from their parents. He's ready, willing, and able to go further than that, if he can somehow find a way to use your frustration to his advantage.

    He will corrupt everything he touches, and he will proclaim that you gave him a mandate. He will play you for a stooge if you let him, and that's the real choice facing you as you confront this issue in this climate.

    Everything you're worried about regarding immigration and overpopulation is a real live topic for debate, and I really do care...but in my opinion it's currently being used as a sideshow in the Trump Reality Circus.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    I'm happy to take it down a notch, but it takes a village...

    I also believe that most immigrants are revenue positive to our country within five years, so the idea that we flushing money down the drain to continually prop up a bunch of alien freeloaders is just more fear-based spin. If I'm wrong about that I'm sure someone will point it out.

    Jeff C

    It's not just about revenue positive - negative - of an immigrant. An immigrant may be revenue positive on a fiscal balance sheet, but if it's x 500,000 or 5,000,000 all in one hit, he's taking up spaces in a house, hospital, school and depressing absolute wages when those factors are number limited to those who can least afford it. In the UK it creates social hostility and a rise in nationalism when large scale immigration takes place, especially when it's human nature to cluster in focal micro economies.

    When you run a manufacturing economy, like the UK in 1800's, America in the 1900's or China and Germany in 2000's, your economy is hungry for labour, generally less skilled labour and our social affluence somes from GDP (and often borrowing on that GDP).

    Later when your economy turns from a 'low skilled' manufacturing economy to a 'high skilled' service economy, it becomes more about the absolute level of an individuals wages not gross gdp. Those wages need to be above a threshold, to pay for food, utilities and mortgage payments etc especially when those become relatively higher of late.

    Of course employers still demand immigration - their interest is in workers at the lowest wage be that unskilled or skilled, and the 'liberal' middle classes with secure professional employment proclaim the benefits of globalisation - cheaper imported products to them, and the promise of a wider larger future global market.

    Less skilled employees want restricted immigration - their interest is in restricting the number of workers, to increase demand and their wages to get themselves above that wage threshold, to reduce housing pressure/ competition/ prices etc.

    So we see both 'right' and 'left' leaning political attitutes becoming confluent on immigration and out number the 'indifferent' middle in the post industrial economies.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 08-10-2018 at 04:45 AM.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Less skilled employees want restricted immigration ...
    While the professionals have restricted immigration. Can a dentist come to the US and practice ? Accountant ? lawyer ? or even a small animal vet ?

    "Of course they can, after they go to school, pass the exams and agree to charge the going rate ..."

    How that benefits the well-to-do is left as an exercise for the reader.

    The concept of low-skilled, by the way .... I see people here with master's degrees and $50,000 worth of tools in their garage who have a difficult time achieving what a guy with a fourth-grade education did daily in 1870. And I doubt that an attorney who presented before the Supreme Court could keep up with a 12 year old bracero picking onions. We should have a different word than "skilled".

    Otherwise, I applaud you post

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    While the professionals have restricted immigration. Can a dentist come to the US and practice ? Accountant ? lawyer ? or even a small animal vet ?

    "Of course they can, after they go to school, pass the exams and agree to charge the going rate ..."

    How that benefits the well-to-do is left as an exercise for the reader.


    Otherwise, I applaud you post
    That is the difference between the US and UK. We have less restricted practices like that.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The world is my back yard, buddy. Not in my F ing back yard.
    Not unreasonable. One can make a plausible case that things would be better with a lot fewer people. I think it's too late for that, and we have to fugue out how to deal with things as they are, but that's another issue entirely. One can also make a case that concentrating people in cities and making them richer reduces harm; reduces their geographical footprint and fertility - but leave that aside; it's not really relevant. My point is that restricting immigration is not a rational way to try to defend nature from the depredations of human beings. Merely moving people from one place to another does not necessarily make things either better or worse. It can help keep more people out of your little corner of the world, but that's the definition of NIMBY.


    I'm fond of Japanese prints myself. This is one of my favorites, an example hanging on the wall as I type - 'From the Ryogoku Bridge', Toshi Yoshida.




    And then there's this one, one of Hokusai's views of Mt Fuji. I think the fellow on the right would be very pleased to get a power saw.

    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-10-2018 at 07:47 AM.
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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Not unreasonable. One can make a plausible case that things would be better with a lot fewer people. I think it's too late for that, and we have to fugue out how to deal with things as they are, but that's another issue entirely. One can also make a case that concentrating people in cities and making them richer reduces harm; reduces their geographical footprint and fertility - but leave that aside; it's not really relevant. My point is that restricting immigration is not a rational way to try to defend nature from the depredations of human beings. Merely moving people from one place to another does not necessarily make things either better or worse. It can help keep more people out of your little corner of the world, but that's the definition of NIMBY.

    Well said, Keith.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Not unreasonable. One can make a plausible case that things would be better with a lot fewer people. I think it's too late for that . . .
    Take a while to reduce the population; doesn't mean it's too late. It's only too late to win if you surrender.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    One can also make a case that concentrating people in cities and making them richer reduces harm; reduces their geographical footprint and fertility - but leave that aside; it's not really relevant.
    I agree it's plausible, and also that it's not really relevant, because the issue is the rights of non-human life, and the morality of human activity that affects it. Call that two issues or one.

    Note, the morality to which I refer is not that which is externally enforced. It's self-interest in terms of how you value the corruption of your soul by expediency.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    My point is that restricting immigration is not a rational way to try to defend nature from the depredations of human beings. Merely moving people from one place to another does not necessarily make things either better or worse. It can help keep more people out of your little corner of the world, but that's the definition of NIMBY.
    Restricting immigration is just another form of concentration, as with cities. Obviously it's not a total solution, but perfect not the enemy of the good etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    It can help keep more people out of your little corner of the world, but that's the definition of NIMBY.
    The world is my back yard. NIMBY is how I define myself. Someone with a Cape Cod mansion means, his back yard, literally. He is also NIMBY, but tries to evade the label. We are not the same.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    A lotta great words there. Some of them are even in some sort of order. Good for you.

    But it's all smoke unless you have ideas for solutions.
    Reduce the impacts.

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    If your solution is for me not to exist then you're in luck, because in the real measure of time I'll be gone in a heartbeat. Nature has a plan for my DNA and it's all e=mc2 till the lights go out for everything.
    Straw man.

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    And as far as the rest is concerned, you can trust this...you wouldn't understand my "ideaology" if it slapped you on the fanny and called you Hazel. You're too busy trying to be clever while you seem not to grasp the fact that your BM's are just as smelly as the rest of us, so please, take some ownership during the sippy breaths as you pontificate.
    Sippy breaths?

    I suspect what your ideology is -- MEM. But suppose you tell me?

    Quote Originally Posted by leikec View Post
    I'm still trying to be reasonable, but it is taking some effort.
    Your fundamental beliefs are called into question.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I think the fellow on the right would be very pleased to get a power saw.
    Maybe. Or maybe not. Certaainly it would be less back-breaking labor. But on the other hand he'll get paid for fifteen minutes instead of three days. And he'll have to buy the power saw, which will break down five times as often and cost ten times as much. But in the same amount of time he could build a whole house and sell it for five times as much as that one board, so he's gone ahead ! Except with those three extra houses three new familes will move in and now the village has just outrun its water supply, so they need to cut a ditch to the salmon stream. Oops, now there are no salmon for the villagers to eat, because of that power saw. Etc etc.

    A couple hundred years ago it was easy to fall for the power saw story. But nowadays we know better. Or should, some of us are slow learners.

    What we should do is keep the power saws where appropriate but restrain ourselves in other ways. But it doesn't seem like we're smart enough to do that.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    I guarantee the fellow in the Hokusai woodcut would have been utterly thrilled to get a power saw. Most actions have unintended consequences, but greater output per unit of human labor is about as unambiguous a good as we've yet found. But you're free to rip boards by hand if you like; be my guest.

    Osborne, I do agree with you that there's no need to get all mystical about 'the rights of non-human life; self-interest alone should enough to keep us from being stupid. If it isn't, we'll deserve what happens to us. It may not be, unfortunately; the jury's still out on that one.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 08-11-2018 at 12:45 PM.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I guarantee the fellow in the Hokusai woodcut would have been utterly thrilled to get a power saw. Most actions have unintended consequences, but greater output per unit of human labor is about as unambiguous a good as we've yet found. But you're free to rip boards by hand if you like; be my guest.

    Osborne, I do agree with you that there's no need to get all mystical about 'the rights of non-human life; self-interest alone should enough to keep us from being stupid. If it isn't, we'll deserve what happens to us. It may not be, unfortunately; the jury's still out on that one.
    Your power saw is killing salmon, Keith. Every time you pull the trigger on that baby and start that blade a circling you commit another act of Hamiltonian thuggery. Good God, man...have you no humanity?

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The world is my back yard. NIMBY is how I define myself. Someone with a Cape Cod mansion means, his back yard, literally. He is also NIMBY, but tries to evade the label. We are not the same.
    There are loads of NIMBYS in the UK.
    It reflects badly on us.
    A case in point. We are in the process of procuring infrastructure improvement, a new rail line running up the centre of England, to take the strain off of the existing East Coast and West Coast lines.
    Our NIMBYs are out in force, jumping up and down and shouting"go away nasty railway".
    Contrast that with the French. When they got wind of a new rail line all of the towns and villages along the possible routes lobbied hard to have the line bought to
    their towns and for a station. Those that were successful have reaped considerable economic benefits from the new infrastructure.

    NIMBYs? Don't talk to me of NIMBYs.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration



    One of the main developments of western civilization since the advent of MEM has been to sever the relationship of man to nature from any foundation in moral values. MEM has sought to exclude anything other than MEM moral values, one of the main elements of which is the hatred of nature. Adam and Eve didn't bring punishment only upon themselves. This idea has lost much of its grip but is still present. It's foundational.

    The Japanese have, or had, an irreconcilably oppposed moral foundation. Shapes and forms aren't just arrangements at random. They represent the operation of natural forces, which by a simple but a fundamental intuition, later confirmed by science, are conceived of as being in dynamic balance. One sees it, and from seeing, constructs the idea of harmony. Westerners will talk about rhythm and sytems of proportion in the way we have of denying the reality of anything that can't be reduced to numbers. The Japanese feels that the dynamic balance that he sees is the same process, on another level, as the balance he sees in nature.

    The Japanese feels, or felt, both humbled and exalted. Pulled closer and closer to nature as westerners are driven further and further away. But it's not at all anti-human. The road is part of the harmony. The images advocates the pursuit of an ideal, which is a moral argument. The western view explains it as the peculiar "talent" of the artist for creating an image of harmony out of fundamental chaos. An image that conveys the idea of harmony where there actually is none.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    There are loads of NIMBYS in the UK.
    It reflects badly on us.
    A case in point. We are in the process of procuring infrastructure improvement, a new rail line running up the centre of England, to take the strain off of the existing East Coast and West Coast lines.
    Our NIMBYs are out in force, jumping up and down and shouting"go away nasty railway".
    Contrast that with the French. When they got wind of a new rail line all of the towns and villages along the possible routes lobbied hard to have the line bought to
    their towns and for a station. Those that were successful have reaped considerable economic benefits from the new infrastructure.

    NIMBYs? Don't talk to me of NIMBYs.
    There's starting to be a counter-movement, the YIMBYs, in San Francisco. When NIMBYs come out to object to a new apartment tower going up, the YIMBYs are showing up to say, yes in my back yard, we've got to build more housing.

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    Default Re: The Strange Death of Europe - a discussion about mass migration

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    There's starting to be a counter-movement, the YIMBYs, in San Francisco. When NIMBYs come out to object to a new apartment tower going up, the YIMBYs are showing up to say, yes in my back yard, we've got to build more housing.
    It is good that they care enough to organise. One plus for social media I suppose.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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