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  1. #1
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    Default Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I'd like to build a boat similar to Meade Gougeon's Elderly Care.
    lbhhTEq.jpg
    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...NUOWhyMnpFa3dn

    I have plans for the earlier Bufflhead based boat.
    But I want a square sterned boat.

    Anyone have information.

    There is apparently one of Meade's Everglades boats being build in glass as a group kids training group. They wouldn't answer a request for information.

    I'd rather not do this by estimation off the few pictures available.

    Help, please.

    I'm going to x-post this on Boatdesign.net

    Thanks,

    Marc

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    You may get help here ...... http://smalltrimarans.com/blog/
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I really appreciate the comments.

    But how hard is it that I like strip planked and Elderly care??
    If I wanted chines, I can put them in a strip planked boat, like the Chipmunk Kayak shown above.

    I really don't like plywood planked boats. I have a kayak that's done that way, I would get rid of it but my wife won't let me.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Nothing

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I have not opened the SA link yet, there's a lot of info in this thread

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...verglades-2018

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I've watched Ostlind's illustrations for a long time.
    He dissappeared for about 10 years.
    One of the boats in an article on Duckworks was never finished.
    Duckworks said they were no longer carrying his designs when I inquired.
    There was a serious lack of anything but the illustrations.
    So I decided not to go there.

    Perhaps he has restarted. I'll wait to see if anyone builds something.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    The Anarchists were interested in the race, not the boat.
    No help

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Marc, Have you asked Jim Brown at outrigmedia? That’s the only thing I have thought of, as my brain has gone down a similar path. He might know who built that canoe. I hope you find them. http://outrigmedia.com/outrig/welcom...ith-jim-brown/
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Edward,

    I want an Elderly Care clone.

    I don't want an illustration and I don't want plastic.

    I know everyone wants to help, but I've spent 40 years refining my desires.

    I'd be happy for you to reach out to Ostlind and report back. Don't do it for me.

    Marc

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I am interested in that forestay arrangement, interesting. For a few years I have asked for info on Gougeon's boat (and its earlier version) and rig, but have never got any help in this. I heard only a secondhand rumor he that was going to do a write-up, but then a couple of years passed, and then he passed. I was interested in his sail (having something like it built) and contacted the builder of that sail, but never got a response. I know one of Gougeon's old friends, and he said he would try to get some info at the Cedar Key meet, but nothong (perhaps he forgot). It can feel discombobulating at times. :-) Good luck! What a wonderful design. -- Wade

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Matt,

    The builder for Elderly Care is a Canadian named Skip ?????. I can find it in some of the articles, but haven't been able to find a contact point/ email for him.

    I'll contact Jim Brown - he's such a well known figure in trimarans, that he might have some good info.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Skip Izon, Shadow River Boatworks. I can’t find contact info either yet. Some nice looking canoes though. And there is that transom.

    https://catherinebowman.wordpress.com/tag/skip-izon/


    D357F9E0-AA94-4194-B760-394609D96257.jpg
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    Skip Izon, Shadow River Boatworks. I can’t find contact info either yet. Some nice looking canoes though. And there is that transom.

    https://catherinebowman.wordpress.com/tag/skip-izon/


    D357F9E0-AA94-4194-B760-394609D96257.jpg
    --- I wonder what the blogger means by "the wing shaped skeg helps keep the bow up when a wave is behind"??? Does he mean, helps the hull track when surfing do that the boat doesn't broach? That sharp fine bow might well take over in some conditions.... (and a transom dampens pitching which is better for the sail, and creates more power in the hull against heeling, but also could drive the bow down, am I right? Please instruct me) --Wade

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Skip Izon, Shadow River Boatworks 71660 Bluewater Hwy (519) 872-7824

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Skip Izon, Shadow River Boatworks 71660 Bluewater Hwy (519) 872-7824
    Google fu:
    The phone number is for the Grand Bend art center. They should know Skip since he taught a boat building class there; https://dokumen.tips/documents/artc-...-may-2013.html
    Skip gives his phone number is near the end of the video below: 519 238-6838

    The rest of the address is here:
    Shadow River Boatworks 71660 Bluewater Hwy Grand Bend, ON N0M 1T0

    Location on Google or Bing Maps: 43.362255,-81.714721 It checks out on street view. There is a small Shadow River Boatworks sign and the street number can be seen.

    According to Skip, the skeg on the Chipmunk is for tracking and something about the bow shape keeps it from diving. ~1:15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoFy0KWmhaI

    The transom reminds me a lot of the Sass Design rowboat that http://sassdesign.net/Design%20of%20...%20rowboat.pdf I ran across this one in a forum thread, probably one of Flo-mo's.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 08-08-2018 at 01:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I suspect that detailed information about Elderly Care will be hard to come by and that the construction involved a fair amount of carbon fiber to keep things light. Epoxyworks back issues have articles by Meade and others about sailing canoes and their rigs which you may already be aware of. https://bandbyachtdesigns.com/expeditioncanoe/ has a somewhat similar canoe but the plans have not been released. I believe I saw pictures of EC partipatinging the 2018 Challenge renamed Voyager so perhaps the current owner may have some info. Good luck.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    The limited articles I've seen says there is some carbon, but the majority is strip planked, fiberglass/ epoxy in the hull.

    Not really interested in an expedition canoe.
    Several B&B boats have participated in the EC, but nothing seems to come out afterward.
    I'm tired of waiting for them.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    The limited articles I've seen says there is some carbon, but the majority is strip planked, fiberglass/ epoxy in the hull.

    Not really interested in an expedition canoe.
    Several B&B boats have participated in the EC, but nothing seems to come out afterward.
    I'm tired of waiting for them.
    --- Which boats? The B&B CoreSound 17 and 20, and the EC22 have all frequently done well in the EC, and all have plans, and two have kits. I am hoping Alan will at some point release plans for his UFC kayak/trimaran, perhaps even as a B&B kit boat, but I assume he is also making a living and working hard at B&B, and things take time as side projects; he did release a zillion build photos. -- Wade

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    So has anyone tried calling Skip Izon yet? Curious to know how that goes.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I'm going to soon, had some other things going right now.
    I'll report.

    Marc

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Wade,

    The blogger says she knows nothing about kayaks.
    There were several things said about the construction that puzzled me.

    I just decided to believe what she said about her experience, and let it go.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    In my limited experience, weather the transomed stern lifts or contributes to broaching is also related to the amount of rocker in the hull. Chime in here if this seams wrong. Another good reason for Marc to get ahold of Meade's lines for his Woodwind or Elderly Care.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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  23. #23
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Wade,

    I'm not looking for an EC boat.
    Just something to sail in my retirement.
    Elderly Care scratches my itch for a one man boat that I can build in a reasonable time.

    Matt,

    Is the transom stern going to act the same as a monohull vs a trimaran? I didn't think so.
    I just like the "straighter flow lines" of the transom (assuming it is done right!- not a given ).

    Elderly Care appears to not have 100% flotation amas, so it might be closer to a monohull than a tri flying the main hull.

    So many questions are possible.

    For instance, what does everyone think the purpose of the rope that goes from the end of the aka (via a horizontal strut) to the ama? Aft of the aka.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    For instance, what does everyone think the purpose of the rope that goes from the end of the aka (via a horizontal strut) to the ama? Aft of the aka.
    My guess is for controlling water ballast.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I too like the “straighter flow lines” and am curious how to get it right. The transom does appear to have enough rocker so it is above or at the waterline, that makes sense to me. And yeah the amas do not appear to be 100%. A skinny monohull that can power up significantly and one that alows the skipper to take a nap. Without worry of tipping.

    That line? One thought, edit I don’t know, but I keep coming back to somehow controlling the pitch of the ama.
    Last edited by Matt young; 08-07-2018 at 04:02 PM.
    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt young View Post
    ...That line? One thought, edit I don’t know, but I keep coming back to somehow controlling the pitch of the ama.
    ---Yes, since the amas pitch to the follow the waves, independently of the hull motion, but the motion must be limited (and the line would provide some buffer/shock absorption so the pieces would be constantly banging at the end of their travel). -- Wade

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    I've never seen anything that suggests water ballast on this boat.

    Pitch seems to be a reasonable explanation, but why is it needed?
    It could only keep the bow from going too high.
    Wouldn't keep the bow from diving into the water or backside of a wave.

    About straighter flow lines.
    On a catamaran, you control separation at the stern with weight shift.
    Low speed you move forward to put the transom at the waterline.
    High speed you move aft, since the flow will separate cleanly from an immersed transom, and also to prevent nose diving.
    Last edited by upchurchmr; 08-07-2018 at 06:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Dave, Thanks for the Goggle help. I'm not very good at that.

    The Sass rowboat is an interesting article.
    Looks to me like Sass changed the whitehall shape to one with circular sections.
    Should be expected to be driven easier at slow speeds.
    Probably wouldn't work well from stability unless the section is not a full semi-circle at the waterline, meaning it would be a larger circle with only a portion of the semi-circle in the water. This would provide some lateral stability.
    There is no comment on the "tippiness".
    To bad the author did not provide a section cut as in the Whitehall hull shape.

    A pity he didn't use a sliding rigger to control pitching, instead of the sliding seat.
    I couldn't tell if the whitehall shape had a sliding seat, also. That certainly could have made a difference in the speed.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Dave, Thanks for the Goggle help. I'm not very good at that.

    The Sass rowboat is an interesting article.
    Looks to me like Sass changed the whitehall shape to one with circular sections.
    Should be expected to be driven easier at slow speeds.
    Probably wouldn't work well from stability unless the section is not a full semi-circle at the waterline, meaning it would be a larger circle with only a portion of the semi-circle in the water. This would provide some lateral stability.
    There is no comment on the "tippiness".
    To bad the author did not provide a section cut as in the Whitehall hull shape.

    A pity he didn't use a sliding rigger to control pitching, instead of the sliding seat.
    I couldn't tell if the whitehall shape had a sliding seat, also. That certainly could have made a difference in the speed.
    The sections forward look a lot like a guideboat. The boat looks to me like it has very low initial stability, but will stiffen up as it heels. Not stiff enough for sail, but with outriggers, you don't need a stable main hull.

    The bottom of the second page says "Both boats were otherwise equally equipped with a sliding seat and carbon fiber oars."

    Based on the sections shown on page 1, and a certain lack of expertise coupled with somewhat informed opinion... I think that the boat might have performed just as well if it was built as a symmetrical double ended hull using the forward sections for both ends. Maybe somewhere in between. A 16' Rushton Adirondack guide boat can be rowed at 4.5 knots all day. Adding a sliding seat should increase the speed, but I don't know if it will get you to 5.4 knots. As the guideboat exceeds 4.5 kt, the stern starts to suck down and the wake increases drastically. 5.4 kt is difficult, and 6 kt is an all out sprint with a considerable wake. The flat transom might help with squatting, so it just might be a little faster. As I recall, the consensus on the Sass boat on the other WBF thread was that if you were careful to trim the boat so the bottom of the transom was at or a little above the waterline it should work.

    I get the impression that you are looking for a light weight sailboat desgn similar to, but not necessarily Elderly care. Outriggers are a viable option and you might want to opt for good rowing qualities as well. Can't tell if being able to remove the outriggers is desirable. Sass has a sailing canoe. http://sassdesign.net/Helsa%20Redivi...0eng%20pdf.pdf

    The Bolger Gypsy does row well, but not as fast as the Sass or a guideboat. The interior as designed with the building forms retained as bulkheads is awful. There are some examples with much improved interior design on the forum, and I like Chip-skiff's lug rig that he had made by Todd Bradshaw. The boat needs a skeg for rowing. Without the rudder in the water, it has all the directional stability of a coracle. I wish I had built the Dobler 16 from Jonesboats. http://jonesboatstuckahoe.com/dobler16.html which is similar, but about a foot wider. Neither boat is easily cartopped.
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    According to the the Watertribe roster, Voyageur aka Elderly Care placed first in the C3 class in the 2018 EC. It was sailed by Gamera aka Matt Scharl who has photos and video of the event on his Facebook page at Matt Scharl Racing. Matt may have some of the information you're looking for.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Actually I sent an email to Matt.
    No answer.
    I didn't see anything on his web site about the boat.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    These pictures give a glimpse of the hull interior and the ama attachments.
    https://photos.google.com/share/AF1Q...NUOWhyMnpFa3dn

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Cyclone.

    That's the same link I gave in the first post.

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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Wade,
    Why does the motion have to be controlled?
    The motion will naturally be limited by the length of the ama on the wave formation.
    There is not going to be a lot of motion until you really shouldn't be out there.

    If you want control, why not fix the ama to the aka, and let torsion of the aka control position of the ama?

  35. #35
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    Default Re: Looking for Gougeon "Elder Care" plans, modeling, anything!

    Quote Originally Posted by upchurchmr View Post
    Wade,
    Why does the motion have to be controlled?
    The motion will naturally be limited by the length of the ama on the wave formation.
    There is not going to be a lot of motion until you really shouldn't be out there.

    If you want control, why not fix the ama to the aka, and let torsion of the aka control position of the ama?
    --- I don't know. Maybe to avoid having the amas pinwheeling around the aka bearing in a weird situation? I suggest seeing if Alan Stewart will talk to you (he works at B&B Yacht Designs with Graham Byrnes, so e-mail him there). Alan is a nice guy, and if he is not going crazy with work or out cruising, I think he could explain some things -- he may well know about Elderly Care than any of us (he certainly studied it up close). He built his own version of Elderly Care (but you probably know that), sort of, though differing in some major ways (ama volume, particularly: he had to stow his whole rig inside the hull to paddle the boat as a kayak down a hundred miles of river in the Ultimate Florida Challenge). I believe he too used this line-limiter on the amas? Perhaps it adjusts the ama attitudes in different seas? I don't know....I am a solid-attachment ama man. -- Wade

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