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Thread: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

  1. #211
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    The V gouge is the tool that is most important for carving Roman Letters and script as well. Over the years I have added quite a lot to my collection and use them all. There is a cork on the handel of that short sweep V just until I can make a new one as, the old one split. I really prefer the octagon shaped handles as the don't roll as easily as the round ones do. The two that have them were made up by a blacksmith friend. The fourth Marples V up from the bottom was broken by a worker who pounded on it too hard but,
    It was welded back together. The white dust on the tools is Volcanic powder to absorb moisture after the tools are oiled and put away. Japanese Camelia Oil is first wiped on and wiped off with a paper town prior to storage. Camelia oil is available from most Japanese tool dealers such as Hida Tools in Berkley CA. Both the powder and the oil are non-acidic and prevents rust from forming.
    The powder is known in Japan as Uchico Powder. My favorite V tool was made thirty years ago in Italy and is seen in the other photo. The wings are 26mm, !" wide.

    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-09-2019 at 10:54 AM.

  2. #212
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951


  3. #213
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    I am posting this because John is interested in carving. I you guys prefer, I can post a separate carving thread so as not to clog up his thread here.

  4. #214
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    I am posting this because John is interested in carving. I you guys prefer, I can post a separate carving thread so as not to clog up his thread here.
    IMO, Jay, I'm good with whatever you post, wherever you post it. It's always interesting.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  5. #215
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    Default

    John is at the carving stage so anything on carving sits pretty well IMHO.

    I love the info about Japanese Camelia oil. Who knew? I'd be reaching for WD 40 or Lanolin in a spray can. You sir are a genuine treasure.😀

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  6. #216
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    I vote a dedicated carving thread please Jay. Not everyone would look in here and I for one only happened by. It’s especially pertinent to me as well for my boat. Both this font and v- gouges etc. Thanks

  7. #217
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    John, deck paint question. Did you roll, roll and tip, or brush? Just not sure how roll and tip goes with grippy stuff in the mix.

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  8. #218
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Why would you tip grippy stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    John, deck paint question. Did you roll, roll and tip, or brush? Just not sure how roll and tip goes with grippy stuff in the mix.

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  9. #219
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Brushed to cut in, rolled the large areas, Phil. Unthinned. It lays flat on its own, perfectly. Nice paint.

    Cheers,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  10. #220
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    Thanks.

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  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Donald View Post
    Why would you tip grippy stuff?
    The question is why would you ask. The answer is because I'm about to apply $600 worth of deck paint and I've never painted a deck before. Tipping seems to get rid of bubbles left by a roller. I wondered whether you do that with deck paint with granules in it. I tend to think there's no such thing as a dumb question. What's dumb is not asking for fear that someone might follow up with a post suggesting it was a dumb question. Which would be a dumb thing to do on a forum which is intended to share knowledge.

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  12. #222
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Guys and Gals, I am going to start a dedicated carving and lettering post on our forum. All are welcome for comments and questions!
    Jay aka Bird

  13. #223
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Thanks for the excellent advice, Jay. It has been very helpful.

    What is the product you mentioned that would be suitable for filling and fairing under the gold leaf?

    I have given the carving a break for a few days, and tonight decided to plough on. I spent around three more hours on it. Photo proof:

    EFF9AE76-730F-4652-87FB-D666FEFDC428.jpg
    A6B678E7-80CC-49AF-B433-D90BAF02195B.jpg
    0B8D9042-B840-4B7F-9553-8469CFD1718F.jpg
    AFB8869D-BC7B-4566-B5E2-7667246F6169.jpg

    And at more distance:

    84F19FA0-8DDC-4AE7-9192-557414C3FC3E.jpg

    Regards,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  14. #224
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    For other beginners, it’s easier than it looks, although pine is a lot less work than hardwood!

    Things I learned so far. Jay might correct some of this, which would be good.

    1. Cut a line down the centre of your future valleys. That way you’re slicing down to more than an imaginary line, from each side, and the grain breaks nicely at the cut. You’ll need to re-cut at least once, as you can’t cut full depth with one cut.

    2. Go with tapered serifs. The square ones are hard, although these worked out ok in the end.

    3. Keep an eye on the grain, and cut across it at right angles, and when you can’t, slice it on an angle. Tear-out is a problem otherwise.

    4. Curves are hard! Lots of small slices, ideally with a curved tool. I didn’t have a suitable one, so these were done with an angle cut chisel. Yes, it has a name, but I wouldn’t be a noob if I knew what it was.

    5. Before you start cutting, work out your intersections between legs, because wider sections are deeper, and angled intersections are different from straight ones, and curved sections meeting straight or angled ones are different again, of course. The Offcentreharbour video was brilliant for this. Watch it.

    6. I had to belt sand the paper off afterwards. I think stencilling a cartoon would be wiser.

    Regards,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  15. #225
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Despite the trouble that looks really good John.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  16. #226
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Just a comment for you John. First, your work looks pretty darn good!

    In my own work, I carve the serifs first. It begins with cutting all that face in the same direction followed by coming back from the other side on the ones that face the other direction. No attempt is made to remove wood until the second cuts are being made. The first cut is only a matter of diving the V gouge into the wood and pulling it back out in reverse. Once the second pass is made, from the other direction, this results in a triangular piece is cut free that makes up the serif relief. This is followed by cutting all of the straight ascenders and descenders with the V gouge. This works as a single cut both up and down by starting in the middle and then working in both directions. This produces a minute hour glass shape and keeps the vee cut free of wavey marks on their sides. Using a short but wide V tool then allows the curves to be cut in a continuous sweep rather than coming in from the edges. Again this avoids jagged edges and wavey center lines. As the tool reaches the serif, the angle of attack is raised to match the angle of the top of the serif to avoid digging into it. The V tool may need to be rolled slightly to towards the outer edge of the curve in order to swing it smoothly around the curve. This helps to prevent cutting into its surface unevenly. Some clean up is always necessary and should be done with tools that fit the shape that needs correcting. I usually do that without the mallet to insure a sweeping cut with both hands in control of the tool. Some times a right or left skew chisel helps working the clean up of a line that is not fair. It often helps to practice in Basswood as it is very easy to carve and has a consistent, almost non existent grain pattern. Tools must be razor sharp to cut it cleanly. Good for practice.
    Jay

  17. #227
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    Looks great, so much better than the first try.

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  18. #228
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Thanks Phil. The next one is better again, so much so that I am tempted to flip the first one over and re-carve it. But that’s a temptation I will manfully resist!

    These won’t be seen from closer than twenty feet, and if they are I will have more serious concerns.

    OK, here’s a series of photos which show as much of the technique as possible. I used a total of three tools, two chisels and one of those ladies’ claw hammers. Only one of the chisels is a carving tool. I can see that much better results could be achieved with decent tools, but with a little sanding and filling under the gold leaf it should work out okay.

    Here are the tools.

    7093AF13-4096-4F6F-A14A-FAE0485B28E2.jpg

    BA60D2E0-FD2E-4E57-A6F8-C566F86D2D8C.jpg

    F05A258B-EF09-42AE-A0E0-B9FAA74E0DBA.jpg

    B574540A-EE85-4C1C-A878-61F7CE103D0F.jpg

    159865DC-BCA2-4379-988B-4FF0F66A572A.jpg

    Regards,
    John
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  19. #229
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    7E8B8CB5-D1D4-4A69-8478-E806560DA0D5.jpg

    Here I have messed up an intersection by using the large chisel and not turning my brain on. Brutality has chipped off the ridge. I’ll have to do some filling and fairing to repair it.

    A527244E-D6E5-4EED-94C2-DFB696316E07.jpg

    4E7F69DB-8C3E-43EB-9B9E-E1200F52D79F.jpg

    5DFFBA1B-4140-408C-B29D-E059BAFC7402.jpg

    And a closer view so so you can see how rough it really is.

    11689D86-4835-4DB0-938D-8EC1CED0CDA2.jpg

    Regards,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  20. #230
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    And voila!

    D50C3DC8-50E8-4FED-8E6E-3AA00BBA96FA.jpg

    Cheers,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  21. #231
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Very Nice! I can see I'm going to have to try some lettering one of these days. I don't have anything worthy of a nameboard, but I'm sure I can scrounge an excuse to try it

  22. #232
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    ​Thanks Hugh.

    Hugh’s Handiwork
    , on a board?

    07E7929A-A531-4A70-9842-D8888557C82E.jpg
    Last edited by Aquinian; 07-12-2019 at 02:59 PM.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  23. #233
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    What an absolute beauty of a boat!

    I think a couple of stainless dorade vents on the cabin top would really set it off. Mounted so they are vertical, not parallel to the cabin top.

    The deck color is perfect to my untrained eye looking through the internet. The faint yellow just looks right on an old wood boat. But this is an opinion coming from a guy used to staring at white and grey decks on modern plastic boats.

    The name plates are absolutely, 100% "perfect"! If you want a perfect, machined look, then get a machine to do it. But then you lose the richness imbued by the labor of love which is highlighted by the imperfections.

    Fair Maid is lucky to have you!

  24. #234
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Thank you, Sean, very kind.

    OK, time for an update.

    This is painful to write. I wish I had Chris's humour and patience in describing this, but here goes.

    I was diagnosed with a serious auto-immune disease around a year ago - it's either rheumatoid arthritis or Lupus, probably the latter - so that has slowed me down and made work on the boat a lower priority but also pretty bloody painful a lot of the time. It also means I am photo-sensitive and have to cover up and wear lots of sunscreen, which I detest, but that's life.

    We have had no end of trouble with our motor (Universal M25, Kubota 3 cylinder). We had water getting into the head via the exhaust ports when it was shut down, either from the exhaust itself or from the intake to the heat exchanger, or both. By the time we sorted both exhaust and intake sides, the motor had been out twice, the head rebuilt twice, and she was unreliable and smokey yet again, so we decided on a full rebuild (rebore, new pistons, new head, the whole hog). Out she came again, and off to Queensland to a Kubota specialist. That was in August, and we spend September away and got the motor back in October when we returned. That was exciting, and we hoped to fit it again and enjoy a full summer...

    IMG_20191015_082314.jpg

    However, the drive flex plate (between engine and gearbox) looked worn, so we decided to replace that. A further delay of around a month waiting for the new one from the USA ensued.

    IMG_20191015_082050.jpg


    Then a leak was detected from the thermostat housing, and a crack discovered. A new one of those was $400 and also would have had to come from the USA, so we modified a terrestrial Kubota unit purchased locally instead. That took another week or or so. Then when everything was reassembled (motor to gearbox, plus cooling system) the motor would not run on the bench, and we could not for the life of us work out why. So we sent it to the local Kubota dealer for diagnosis. Another week's delay, and it turned out the fuel hose from the filter to the pump was collapsed inside, restricting fuel flow. I had purchased all new hoses - cooling, fuel, the whole lot - and had one of my fitters replace them all, and he came to me one day and said, the fuel line I had purchased was too stiff for the short sharpish bend required between the fuel filter and pump, and he recommended not replacing that short piece, and I foolishly agreed. It was that line that turned out to be U/S. You could not make this up.

    So it's approaching Christmas and we have not used the boat since July. Finally, we dropped the motor into her spot in the bilge and - again you could not make this up - discovered that the prop shaft would not align. The motor sat around 10mm too high. But everything was the same - the engine, the mounts, the mounting spacers, everything. How could this be? We checked everything, and nothing seems to have moved, but the alignment was just not going to happen. We machined the spacers down by ten mil, and another week went by, and went back to the boat and fitted the motor. Alignment was absolutely perfect. I still have no idea what changed, but there you have it.

    We got everything hooked up over two hot days sweating in cramped spaces, and fired her up. After five minutes she started rattling badly, coming from the top end of the motor, and we shut her down immediately. What the HELL!!!

    Unscrewed the oil filler on the top of the tappet cover and looked in, and it seemed very dry. Pulled the tappet cover off. Yes, definitely too dry. Very distressing. Pulled the oil pressure switch sender unit out, turned the motor over, and oil pumped out strongly, so we had oil pressure. But it wasn't feeding to the tappets. Pulled the rocker shaft off and found that it is fed by a single orifice in one of its mounting plinths. Maybe that's blocked? Took it to our workshop and cleaned it with kero and compressed air, all good. Back to the boat and re-fitted it and got oil appearing on top. It still seemed like not much oil, but consulting with the Kubota guy in Queensland it seemed that it was sufficient and we ran the motor up again. No more rattling, so that seems like it was the problem - maybe a bit of crap was stuck in the orifice from the rebuild process. Not good, but what can we do?

    This is too dry:

    IMG_20191230_104151.jpg

    The possible culprit:

    IMG_20191230_102200.jpg

    I REALLY wanted to use the boat, and it was time to test out the motor, so we threw our lines and backed her out of the pen. All good. But as I threw it into forward and powered up the alley between the jetties I look over the transom and there's a line of dark oil in my wake! Oh hell! Shut down the motor, unfurl the genny, and cruise out of the pen area. What the hell?

    Checked the oil level and it was down to halfway between empty and full on the dipstick. Not good. Initially, I thought maybe the valve stem seals were heat damaged by the lack of lube earlier on, and oil was draining down into the pots while she was sitting, but no, every time I give her some throttle she pumps oil out the exhaust. It's horrible beyond belief. The engine builder is honouring his warranty but that's cold comfort at this point. I'm thinking that there must be either a crack in the head (which is new), or damage to the head gasket, such that an oil gallery is feeding oil into one pot. That would explain the poor feed to the top of the head, despite the good oil pressure, and also the large amount of oil getting into the exhaust.

    So, we can use the boat, if we don't care about the dolphins, but the head's got to come off, at least, at some point soon...

    So now you know why I haven't finished my name boards, or much else at all, really.

    The up side is we decided that we didn't care about the dolphins that much and my wife and I spent three nights aboard, camping on the boat, last week, and cruising the Swan River, which was just beautiful.

    Here's how she looks. We have at least got the cabin top finished.


    IMG-20191231-WA0046.jpg

    Regards,
    John
    Last edited by Aquinian; 01-07-2020 at 07:50 AM.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  25. #235
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Wow! None of that is fun & I'd never be able to come up with humor about it either.

    Good luck with getting it sorted & especially with your health.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  26. #236
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Well, I didn’t even tell you about my table saw!



    Thanks Garret.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  27. #237
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    John, that's quite a series of unfortunate events! I'm sorry to hear about your health and wish you all the best in managing it. As for your motor challenges, all I can say is "ouch, I've been there". Rather literally as it turns out. I dealt with water getting into a pair of Detroit 6-71s through badly-designed injection elbows. They had been completely rebuilt at great expense and then had to be rebuilt all over again. And to make things worse, I had sold them on before the problem was discovered so I ended up refunding most of the money I received in the sale to cover the repairs.

    Regarding your more recent issues, a couple of thoughts. First, regarding the alignment. Is it possible that the motor was never aligned properly? Is this the first time you have had it out of the boat? (I don't recall all that you have done). I had a similar experience with Temptation, a 30' Chris Craft that we owned for a while. I needed to pull the shafts at one point and when I came to put them back they would simply not line up. Based on the wear pattern on the shaft logs I'm sure that they had been out of alignment for decades. In fact it was the damage to the shaft log castings that caused me to remove the shafts in the first place. I ended up having to shim the struts and have new motor mount spacers made to get everything in place. You may want to look at your shaft and any related hardware to make sure that there aren't any other problems that might have been caused by misalignment.

    Then on your oil issues. It sure sounds like a head gasket problem to me. If you are not getting smoke out of the exhaust then I would be thinking that oil is getting into a cooling gallery directly, rather than into the cylinder. Maybe could be a cracked head but if the head is new I would be inclined to check the gasket first. But hopefully the shop will sort it out for you on their own dime and you can enjoy the rest of the summer.

    Beautiful photo, by the way.
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

  28. #238
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    Sorry about the arthritis/lupus. My wife has has rheumatoid arthritis pretty much since she had kids. Relatively mild in her case, but no fun at all. Sorry about the engine woes too. Kubota is a very common and sturdy motor. At what point do you cut your losses and go for a new long motor and bolt on the marinising bits? It's always just this one more thing and it should be OK isn't it? The oil is odd. Wouldn't be a leak into the cooling system unless it's raw water cooled. A leak into the combustion chamber would result in burned oil, not a black slick. Or more likely blow back into the crankcase and out the breather. Does the motor have an oil cooler? That's really the only path I can think of for fresh oil to be coming out the exhaust. But even that would probably not be on the raw water circuit would it? Anyway, wishing you luck and a final resolution.

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  29. #239
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Thanks guys.

    Chris, I fitted the motor originally (a repower from an old Volvo Penta), so the alignment was good before, and nothing known has changed. A magic fairy done it, and I can't worry.

    On the oil in the exhaust, it's coolant cooled, with a wet exhaust, so the oil is getting from an oil gallery to the wet exhaust. It cannot be getting into the raw water, which goes from sea cock to pump to heat exchanger to exhaust elbow, so it must be coming from a combustion chamber. I agree that you'd expect the motor to be smoking, but it isn't. But the oil's there in my exhaust output all the same. Lots of it.

    Also, the coolant is clean, and the oil in the motor is uncontaminated, so whatever crack/leak we have, it isn't letting gases or oil into the water jacket, or water into the oil. The oil's just going from where it belongs into my exhaust, somehow...
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  30. #240
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    Possible I suppose for there to be a crack in the head from an oil gallery to the exhaust port downstream of the valve. Maybe.

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  31. #241
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Well that all sucks, the health issues and the motor .
    If that much oil was getting into the cylinder before being blown out the exhaust, the motor would either be running away uncontrollably or hydrolocking. And laying an epic smokescreen.
    As its doing none of those things, I really doubt it's losing oil via that route - which doesn't solve your problem. Could it be something like a plug in an oil gallery that got left out after the rebuild?

    Pete
    I have six trolls on ignore

  32. #242
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    I'm sorry to hear of your engine troubles. That is a bummer because it's such a pain in the patoot to remove and install. The boat looks beautiful. Your carving looks great as well...very interesting stuff. Thanks for sharing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    The question is why would you ask. The answer is because I'm about to apply $600 worth of deck paint and I've never painted a deck before. Tipping seems to get rid of bubbles left by a roller. I wondered whether you do that with deck paint with granules in it. I tend to think there's no such thing as a dumb question. What's dumb is not asking for fear that someone might follow up with a post suggesting it was a dumb question. Which would be a dumb thing to do on a forum which is intended to share knowledge.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    I thought the technique was to paint a section, scatter the nonskid on the wet paint, and then paint over the grit after the first coat of paint has dried.

  33. #243
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia, Australia
    Posts
    1,960

    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Thanks guys.

    Well, here's a cold start this morning:



    And the resulting effluent:

    IMG_20200111_110126_1.jpg
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

  34. #244
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia, Australia
    Posts
    1,960

    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30’ Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Then with the engine under load (forward gear engaged, revving):




    And the resulting effluent.

    IMG_20200111_110335.jpg

    Also, I thought of one more path for oil to the exhaust - from the drive of the raw water pump, past the seals, into the raw water. But we pulled a hose on the outlet side and no oil present, so it's definitely internal to the engine. Bizarre.

    And annoying.

    Cheers,
    John.
    http://fairmaid.blogspot.com.au/

    "It's dawning on me that I should have worked out the tumbler details more in advance, rather than rely on bluster and over confidence. But that's just silly." Jim Ledger.

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