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Thread: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    I see laminations in your future & is the strap to pull things back together where the chain plates have pulled 'em apart?
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  2. #142
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    True, but there’s more...

    FB54E744-18C0-4222-A643-10DB09563FB5.jpg


    I’m thinking it’s a cunning plan, worthy of much stealing of other people’s plans, with a dose of the old farmer tossed in.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    I like cunning plans. I’m looking forward to seeing how it plays out.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Thanks Jim, your own work is inspirational.

    OK, quick visit to the boat to check how thick the lams can be. I'm using Karri, and it's pretty dry, but it looks like 6mm or so will work.

    Here are the chainplates, they are bronze. The horizontal plate is stainless, doubtless an add on. I’m a bit concerned about what the dissimilar metals are cooking up, so the stainless can go when we have sistered the ribs.

    IMG_20190414_122610.jpg

    That streak of rust use is from a formerly leaking deck fitting, now re-bedded in butyl rubber.

    IMG_20190414_123323.jpg

    And this looks like it will work.

    IMG_20190414_123155.jpg

    I was was planning on stapling the lams, including stapling the first one to the planking, without needing clamps, but I don’t know if staples will hold even 4mm lams in the necessary curve. It’s a pretty mild curve, but it’s stiff timber. Anyway, that’s something an experiment will decide. Others may already know?

    Regards,
    John
    Last edited by Aquinian; 04-14-2019 at 02:21 AM.

  5. #145
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    This just sailed past. The leeboards gave it away.

    http://www.leeboards.com/batavia_replica.html

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Stainless steel and bronze are really close galvanicaly, above the water line I wouldn’t even give it a second thought. 6mm seems a bit on the thick side for what you’re doing here. When I was laminating frames the lams were running around 3mm plus or minus which gives you a lot more control over the bend.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    I guess the stainless has been there a long time, so with your explanation my mind is at rest. Thanks Jim.

    That’s interesting about the lams too. I’ll try 3mm ones and see how they go. I do need to get them thin enough to staple, which is an unknown factor. I will see if I can get some green Karri as well. The last time I bought it I had to buy packs, and wait for fresh ones to arrive from the mill.

    So, the rest of the plan was to staple the first lam to the hull, build up the layers, monel staples and epoxy, then pull the finished rib off - I’m assuming that the staples won’t hold too well for that - clean them up, then strap the hull whilst on the water, and screw the ribs from the inside to the planking. That’s the first stage. Later, next haul-out, which is likely to be maybe a year away, take out the screws, reef out the relevant seams, strap it again, and rivet the sisters in. Then re-caulk properly.

    The general idea is that while those ribs have obviously been broken for many years, the rig is trying to pull the boat apart, and she’s not got the integrity she should have. It’s a source of ongoing stress. This way I get immediate peace of mind, and very little re-work to get a final, proper, repair. None of this is original, of course, except maybe pulling the planks together in the water. That’s the farmer’s bit.

    Any input from anybody who has relevant experience most welcome!

    I’m just hoping someone sees the strap around the boat in the water.
    Last edited by Aquinian; 04-14-2019 at 09:15 AM.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Some of you may find this interesting, especially Australian forumites, it’s my new work bench. Reportedly from during WW2.

    528C2C21-117E-490A-9A6F-2C628C3D8138.jpg

    IMG_20190415_085217.jpg



    A60A5CF6-0D6B-475E-921A-8ED62424A963.jpg

    And inside the rear horizontal piece, this stenciling.

    F9BFEFE3-ED93-40EB-B552-E0970F0F77D1.jpg

    D9FE1A47-20C1-44EB-9E04-79EC6063505F.jpg

    Regards,
    John.
    Last edited by Aquinian; 04-14-2019 at 08:36 PM.

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    I've done close to a hundred laminated sisters in my boat. These were oak - as that's what the original frames are.

    We used 3/16" thick - so 4.5 mm or so. We stapled the first lam to the planks with no epoxy, then added lams with epoxy, carefully cleaning off the squeeze out as we went. We did not remove them afterwards - just sanded & painted. The boat was out of the water when we did this - so all screws were put in from the outside.

    I'd be concerned about screws from the inside holding. Is there any way you can kedge to boat to gain access from outside? That way it's done once & done right. Any above the waterline should definitely be done from outside.

    Also - make sure any sisters are long enough. They should cover at least one plank either side of the crack - preferably two. Longer is better. - especially around your chainplates. Don't forget to significantly loosen up the rigging before you pull things back together. You may need to remove some screws in the existing frames to allow the planks to return to their original locations (no fun, I know).

    Not a great shot - but here's a pic that shows the sisters on the right & left:

    WaterTanksSmall.jpg

    And here's a shot of a single frame we built up:

    OldKeelbolt.jpg

    Yes - it was taken to show the lovely old keelbolt... That's been replaced
    Last edited by Garret; 04-14-2019 at 10:14 AM.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  10. #150
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    ^Garret has a better handle on metric than I do. Ignore me an listen to him.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    ^Garret has a better handle on metric than I do. Ignore me an listen to him.
    Maybe... However, unless his wood is a lot more limber, I think you were correct that 6mm will be a bit heavy.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  12. #152
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Thanks guys. Excellent information.

    I'm tossing up whether to staple the first lam to the planks, and just use clamps instead. Hard to do in the situation, but it saves me finding out the hard way that I can't get them out again in order fully to close up the seams afterwards...

    Yes, Garret, will definitely remember to loosen the rigging! In fact, I had never noticed it, but my father pointed out during our last haul-out a few weeks ago that the sheer rises slightly under the shrouds, so there's a fair bit of remediation to do there. Likewise the plank coverage. I'll be covering as many as possible in order to add as much strength as I possibly can. Probably four or five planks above the break, and two or more below (depends on access).

    Am I right in supposing that there's no good way to control the tightness of the squeeze between lams? As I understand it, you don't want to be squeezing all your epoxy out, by compressing the layers too much, but when laminating curves the dominant factor will be the pressure needed to maintain the curve, so the space left for glue will be minimal, and not something one can really decide. It will be what it will be. Am I missing something?

    My table saw blade has a 3.2mm kerf, so the waste if I go with really thin lams will be huge! It doesn't matter, as we're talking small amounts of timber all up, but still.

    Regards,
    John.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    I'll let the epoxy experts speak to glue thickness, but cold molding is darn close to 0 mm between layers, as are many other joints. I'm thinking you'll get close to 0 at the staples, but something a bit more away from them.

    If you want to ensure that you can take the ribs out, I would put something under them before stapling: plastic, wax paper - something that will keep the sister from being epoxied to the planks.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  14. #154
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Yep, good point, builders' plastic was my thought.

    Some more photos of my new bench. Pretty cool construction, I think.

    IMG_20190415_085248.jpg

    IMG_20190415_085301.jpg

  15. #155
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Nice old bench! Backing paper works well. Epoxy won't stick to it and it may be a little easier the the thick plastic. ��

  16. #156
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Putting down packing tape where the frames are going to go will keep the frames from sticking to the hull and it is easy. I wouldn’t worry about getting too tight a fit. If you use your laminations strait off the saw they will have lots of tooth and won’t get a zero fit even when tight.

    Also you want want a thick mix of epoxy that won’t sag and run out during glue up.
    Last edited by jsjpd1; 04-14-2019 at 11:34 PM.
    -Jim

    Sucker for a pretty face.
    1934 27' Blanchard Cuiser ~ Amazon, Ex. Emalu
    19'6" Caledonia Yawl ~ Sparrow

    Getting into trouble one board at a time.

  17. #157
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    Default

    On my boat the shroud plates are internal like yours, but run down inside the ribs. That would seem to spread the load better. I don't know which arrangement is more usual, but yours does seem to make a weak spot 3 or so planks down the side. Possible to extend the shroud plate backers at some stage?

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  18. #158
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    Default

    But I guess that horizontal strap spreads the load a bit.

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  19. #159
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Quote Originally Posted by jsjpd1 View Post
    Putting down packing tape where the frames are going to go will keep the frames from sticking to the hull and it is easy. I wouldn’t worry about getting too tight a fit. If you use your laminations strait off the saw they will have lots of tooth and won’t get a zero fit even when tight.

    Also you want want a thick mix of epoxy that won’t sag and run out during glue up.

    All good, thanks again Jim.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    On my boat the shroud plates are internal like yours, but run down inside the ribs. That would seem to spread the load better. I don't know which arrangement is more usual, but yours does seem to make a weak spot 3 or so planks down the side. Possible to extend the shroud plate backers at some stage?

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk
    Phil, yes, extend the backers, that's not a bad thought. I was stuck thinking only of extending the chainplates themselves (plus the backers), which is a lot more fuss. Nothing like another set of eyes, eh?

    Perhaps equally good, however, will be to sister the ribs all the way from up near the clamp/beam shelf down past the breaks in the existing ribs. That way we're picking up the planks at the top which are held by the chain plates, giving a similar engineering outcome as your idea. What does the crowd think?

    Also, am I right in thinking that the real strength in the original structure is from the connection with the beam shelf and deck? I can't see that the chainplates pulling on a couple of extra planks is adding much. I'm also of the opinion that since this survived for over sixty years, it must be an OK design, and the likely culprit for causing the damage is that somebody over-tensioned the rig at some point.

    Cheers,
    John.

  21. #161
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    I think that's a good plan. I think overtensioning on wooden boats is a common problem. But I wonder if she has been aground and bounced on her bilge?

    Sent from my CPH1851 using Tapatalk

  22. #162
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    Default Re: Fair Maid, 30 Eric Cox sloop, 1951

    Fastenings and seams grow weaker and softer so while a few planks won't be distorted in a young boat easily, they may well be in an older boat, even if a rig isn't really tensioned much more than as originally designed to be. I think extending plates and backing is a good idea. The other consequence of age to look for is that some boats have the floors all lined up so that, as the boat heels, the weight of the keel can slightly open up the seam immediately above the floors. If this is a problem, the 'wings/horns' of some floors can be extended by laminating, so that they land on higher planks. The plates extend down a bit further, the floors go higher, and the boat remains tighter and stronger for longer.

    Rick

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