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Thread: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

  1. #36
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    That's the same storm that hit us on Lake of the Ozarks yesterday. The lake was pure, churning white with spray from the waves. No small boat could have survived in that.

    Barb and I watched from our deck until it became too dangerous, then we took cover.
    The Power Company sent trucks to cut fallen trees this morning, and to replace broken power poles.

    We lucked out, our power pole fell between the garage and the car parked in the driveway, and we only had a little tree damage.
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Does the CG get involved as they are a vessel carrying passengers for hire?

  3. #38
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    They're also dangerous on land. There's pretty much no visibility for the driver of what's right in front of the vehicle below the height of the deck. A bicyclist was killed in Boston a year or so ago because of that problem.
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    They're also dangerous on land. There's pretty much no visibility for the driver of what's right in front of the vehicle below the height of the deck. A bicyclist was killed in Boston a year or so ago because of that problem.
    You should see a billboard blow across the street in front of your car like I did a few weeks ago. Straight line winds took it down poles and all and sent it 100 yards from it's original location.
    Last edited by Memphis Mike; 07-20-2018 at 07:42 PM.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    David - yes, they do, but these are odd vehicles that are outside the parameters of many of the regs pertinent to boats. I suspect that if the USCG regs, and our Dept. of Transportation Marine Safety Div. regs, regarding stability and safety of passenger-carrying vessels were to be applied to these vehicles, they would all be ordered to be parked on land immediately and never be put in the water again.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Seaworthy?


  7. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianY View Post
    They're also dangerous on land. There's pretty much no visibility for the driver of what's right in front of the vehicle below the height of the deck. A bicyclist was killed in Boston a year or so ago because of that problem.

    Few years back here in Seattle, one pulled behind a motorcycle at a traffic light downtown. Light turned green, rider wasn't quick enough off the mark -- DUKW rolled over him, dragged hom for a block and a half until bystanders got the DUKW to stop.




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  8. #43
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Sometimes **** happens.

    I'd like to know how many ride these things during the course of a year without incident. And I fear a knee jerk overreaction.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Sometimes **** happens.

    I'd like to know how many ride these things during the course of a year without incident. And I fear a knee jerk overreaction.
    They're dangerous and a menace. They're also tacky and I hate them. You'll just have to accept my word regarding this subject.
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    With the sheer number of incidents and number of deaths involving this particular vehicle, I'm all for parking the fleet while a thorough review of its inherent safety is made. Vessel operators hem and haw, appeal to "sh-t happens", deny there's a problem, and people die. Nothing changes until enough people die for someone to notice and care. I'll never forget the words apn instructor once spoke to me. Safety regulations are written in blood.
    I'll just take my chances with those salt water joys.

    AR

  11. #46
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    17 dead now, according to the morning paper.
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  12. #47
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    As I mentioned in an earlier post, around forty people have died in DUKW accidents. A pretty low number, unless it is your grandmother, aunt and toddler niece who did the dyin' while on a happy family outing. How many fair rides would be allowed to continue operations with that death count?

    Anyway, I've said my piece; I'm outta this thread now. I'll leave y'all with this bit of advice: If you and yours go for a tour in a DUKW, wear your life-vest and sit in the outside seats, and not under the canopy if you can help it.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Passengers and crew alike seem to treat these things like it's a hay ride. I'm surprised more people don't die on these and other tour boats.
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  14. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    ... I'll leave y'all with this bit of advice: If you and yours go for a tour in a DUKW, wear your life-vest and sit in the outside seats, and not under the canopy if you can help it.

    That's been my take for a while. The surry top they put on those things with the life jackets racked under the roof seems like a death trap to me.
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  15. #50
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Memphis Mike View Post
    It's just poor judgement on behalf of all involved. None were wearing their PFDs. As I said before these storms are not predictable and just materialize out of nowhere. People in this part of the country as elsewhere refuse to acknowledge climate change and with deadly results.
    Now they are reports that the driver told the passengers not to put on their life jackets.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    This boat seemed roofed, not just a canopy, and fully glazed. Was it an amphibious truck? what I'd call a dukw, probably ex military, or was it what they call here a party boat. Basically a catamaran tubular hulled platform , more like a powered raft…
    Wha' eva, surely any kind of vehicle that carries passengers for profit, be it a cruise ship, a bus or a trip-round-the-bay on the Saucy Susie old converted fishing smack has to have to conform to any amount of usage regs and have total comprehensive insurance.
    'C'est la vie' say the old folks it goes to show you never can tell

  17. #52
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Not to mention a basic vessel seaworthyness certificate of some kind, or am i being B -Eurocratic where some places you can't fart without a licence. Land of the Free and collateral damage accepted
    'C'est la vie' say the old folks it goes to show you never can tell

  18. #53
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    It seems like any vessel for this use should have positive buoyancy when swamped, and all passengers should be required to wear life jackets. It blows my mind that this is not already the case.

  19. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    It seems like any vessel for this use should have positive buoyancy when swamped, and all passengers should be required to wear life jackets. It blows my mind that this is not already the case.

    You mean like...

    Quote Originally Posted by L.A Marche View Post
    Attachment 19792

    Dublin tour with floats and mandatory PDFs, with open top.
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  20. #55
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    You mean like...
    Or some other design, like the one Nick posted.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Not all duck boat tours use the old WW II DUKWs that Rod Stephens designed. The one in Portland was designed much more recently by onetime WBForum member Roger Long. Knowing Roger’s passion for design stability I can’t help but wonder if his design could have handled those conditions without swamping. How heartbreaking to hear that 9 of the victims were from the same family. The video was pretty horrific.
    Last edited by StevenBauer; 07-21-2018 at 10:11 PM.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Not all duck boat tours use the old WW II DUKWs that Rod Stephens designed. The one in Portland was designed much more recently by onetime WBForum member Roger Long. Knowing Roger’s passion for design stability I can’t help but wonder if his design could have handled those conditions without swamping. How heartbreaking to hear that 9 of the victims were from the same family. The video was pretty horrific.


    Looks like it has a self-draining cockpit.
    Last edited by johnw; 07-21-2018 at 11:25 PM.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    So, it turns out that there was plenty of warning that the storm was coming.

    https://www.vox.com/2018/7/21/175980...inking-weather

  24. #59
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    So, it turns out that there was plenty of warning that the storm was coming.

    https://www.vox.com/2018/7/21/175980...inking-weather
    From the above link
    "Jim Pattison Jr., who owns the duck boat company’s parent company, Ripley Entertainment, told CBS This Morningon Friday that the boat “shouldn’t have been in the water” but at the same time suggested the storm came on as a surprise. The strong winds “came basically out of nowhere,” he said.
    But weather experts have pointed out that’s not the case: The line of storms was fast-moving, yes, but there were plenty of warnings that a storm was coming that should have kept the boat from going out.
    “The radar clearly showed a very large complex of storms approaching the lake,” Marshall Shepherd, a former president of the American Meteorological Society, told the Springfield News-Leader. “If I had been at the lake under that situation, I would not have gone out.”
    The National Weather Service released a timeline of its weather warnings, watches, and reports in the hours before the tragedy. The Storm Prediction Center issued a severe thunderstorm watch at 11:20 am on Thursday, and the NWS issued multiple warnings for neighboring areas that evening as the storm approached the lake. The severe thunderstorm warning for Table Rock Lake came at 6:32 pm, about half an hour before authorities received their first call about the capsizing boat. Those warnings includedthe potential for dangerously high winds."

    Storms like this do not come out of nowhere as many of the reports stated, their has to be conditions that make them possible or probable. I would have to cast the blame for this tragedy on poor judgement and bad decisions far more than the design of the boat.

  25. #60
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    Default 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    From the above link
    "Jim Pattison Jr., who owns the duck boat company’s parent company, Ripley Entertainment, told CBS This Morningon Friday that the boat “shouldn’t have been in the water” but at the same time suggested the storm came on as a surprise. The strong winds “came basically out of nowhere,” he said.
    But weather experts have pointed out that’s not the case: The line of storms was fast-moving, yes, but there were plenty of warnings that a storm was coming that should have kept the boat from going out.
    “The radar clearly showed a very large complex of storms approaching the lake,” Marshall Shepherd, a former president of the American Meteorological Society, told the Springfield News-Leader. “If I had been at the lake under that situation, I would not have gone out.”
    The National Weather Service released a timeline of its weather warnings, watches, and reports in the hours before the tragedy. The Storm Prediction Center issued a severe thunderstorm watch at 11:20 am on Thursday, and the NWS issued multiple warnings for neighboring areas that evening as the storm approached the lake. The severe thunderstorm warning for Table Rock Lake came at 6:32 pm, about half an hour before authorities received their first call about the capsizing boat. Those warnings includedthe potential for dangerously high winds."

    Storms like this do not come out of nowhere as many of the reports stated, their has to be conditions that make them possible or probable. I would have to cast the blame for this tragedy on poor judgement and bad decisions far more than the design of the boat.


    Yep.. certain rare conditions can generate massive winds almost instantly. Very rare.

    Ive long held that the weather that, " comes out of nowhere, " really doesn't. It is simply the statement made by people who were not paying attention.

    IMO

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  26. #61
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    It seems like any vessel for this use should have positive buoyancy when swamped, and all passengers should be required to wear life jackets. It blows my mind that this is not already the case.
    I think if you're going to go on the water, you should go in a boat.
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  27. #62
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    Storms like this do not come out of nowhere as many of the reports stated, their has to be conditions that make them possible or probable. I would have to cast the blame for this tragedy on poor judgement and bad decisions far more than the design of the boat.
    The company knew about the storm and changed its route. The water portion was done first. The water conditions were good until after the boat turned around the island to come back.

    Sometimes the best decisions turn out poorly. Had the water portion been done at the end as was normal the different conditions might not have led to the tragedy.
    Life is complex.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    One of the shipping industry magazines chimes in. From MarineLog:

    https://www.marinelog.com/index.php?...ngs&Itemid=229

    JULY 25, 2018 The duck boat accident that claimed 17 lives when a Ride the Ducks Branson vessel sank in on Table Rock Lake in Stone County near Branson, MO, June 19, is far from being the first such incident involving the refurbished World War II DUKWs.

    There are horrifying parallels between the Table Lake disaster and earlier duck boat tragedies notably including the May 1999 sinking of a duck boat in Arkansas that cost 13 lives.

    You can download the NTSB report on that accident at https://www.marinelog.com/images/PDF/MAR0201.pdf.

    Its multiple recommendations appear to have been ignored. A finding in the May 1999 incident was that "contributing to the high loss of life was a continuous canopy roof that entrapped passengers within the sinking vehicle."

    A photograph of Stretch Duck 07 released by the Coast Guard after recovery of the vessel showed that it still had such a canopy even after being submerged.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Why are they not required to fit permanent centrifical pumps like the Fast Flow that, depending on shaft rpm, can do 150 to 400 gallons per minute through a 2" pipe?

  30. #65
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Probably for the same reason that they did not follow the NTSB recommendations about roofs, Ian. To be cynical, either not enough people have died yet, or nobody important has died yet, to provide impetus for regulatory oversight of these vessels. Somewhere in the regs there is a loophole that is allowing these vessels to operate without meeting the proscribed stability requirements for passenger vessels. To address your specific point, passenger vessels are required to have bilge pumps that are independent of the propulsion powerplant as well as engine driven ones.

    But, I believe (and this is just my personal opinion, un-corroborated by any investigative or regulatory body) that the real issue is water on deck and the free-surface effects of this, combined with precious little reserve buoyancy. Like the horrible accidents with Ro-Ro ferries in the Baltic fifteen or twenty years ago, once a surprisingly small amount of water gets on deck and starts moving, free-surface effect overwhelms the vessel's initial stability, and the vessel sinks. Pumps below won't help this, only freeing ports will, and I see precious few of these on DUKWs. It would not be the first time that I heard an operator of a passenger boat explain away his boat's lack of adequate freeing ports with the comment that "waves splash water through the freeing ports, and customers don't want to get their feet wet". I can drone on about what I saw in the video of the sinking that supports my hypothesis, but such efforts usually devolve into pointless arguments, so I'll not go there at this time. If you have the patience, wait for the NSTB incident report and see if my hypothesis holds water (pun intended).

    I would really, really like to see a full stability assessment of a DUKW to small passenger vessel standards (in the USA I think this is the USCG Sub-Chapter 10 regulation), because I don't think they exist.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Are the drivers required to have a masters license?

  32. #67
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Yes, you need the USCG Limited Master Credential, I think 25 ton will do for this. You also need that state's commercial passenger driving license.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Yes, you need the USCG Limited Master Credential, I think 25 ton will do for this. You also need that state's commercial passenger driving license.
    I agree, 25 Ton USCG MMC

  34. #69
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    So, someone with a 25 ton license told those people not to put on their life jackets? Weird.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    So, someone with a 25 ton license told those people not to put on their life jackets? Weird.

    Just because someone has a 25 Ton USCG License does not mean they common sense.
    Do you know for sure that he/she told the passengers NOT to put on life jackets?

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