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Thread: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

  1. #71
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    With the canopy, solid or cloth, and the side curtainst down there is no mode of rapid escape and slow escape while wearing a PFD will leave one trapped under the canopy. Everyone who has flown over water and listened to the instructions knows that you don't inflate the PFD till you're out of the plane. That's because you can get trapped by it's floatation. Same here except that since these are foam PFDs, you should not put yours on till clear.

    You may ask why a craft with built in entombment is even permissable? Problem solved if they ban the canopy. That would push trips to nicer weather also.

  2. #72
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by genglandoh View Post
    Just because someone has a 25 Ton USCG License does not mean they common sense.
    Do you know for sure that he/she told the passengers NOT to put on life jackets?
    According to a passenger on the ill-fated voyage.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKBN1KB007

    By the way, do you ever do any research before commenting? Usually I wouldn't say anything that snarky, but this does seem to be a trend.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    According to a passenger on the ill-fated voyage.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-m...-idUSKBN1KB007

    By the way, do you ever do any research before commenting? Usually I wouldn't say anything that snarky, but this does seem to be a trend.
    Thank you for the reference.
    I have no idea why the Captain would tell people NOT to put on life vests when you are in high winds and waves.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by genglandoh View Post
    Thank you for the reference.
    I have no idea why the Captain would tell people NOT to put on life vests when you are in high winds and waves.
    Because you will drown in a submerged or overturned vessel. You cannot swim clear with a "life jacket" when pinned underwater.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    "I have no idea why the Captain would tell people NOT to put on life vests when you are in high winds and waves." [#73]

    No doubt due to the close time, but you appear to have missed the reason in #71.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    With the canopy, solid or cloth, and the side curtainst down there is no mode of rapid escape and slow escape while wearing a PFD will leave one trapped under the canopy. Everyone who has flown over water and listened to the instructions knows that you don't inflate the PFD till you're out of the plane. That's because you can get trapped by it's floatation. Same here except that since these are foam PFDs, you should not put yours on till clear.

    You may ask why a craft with built in entombment is even permissable? Problem solved if they ban the canopy. That would push trips to nicer weather also.
    Possibly that's it, but in aircraft, you're told to don the PFD and inflate it later. It's not clear to me whether he at least told people to hold onto their PFDs, or how they could be expected to emerge from the sunken vessel with the life jackets if they weren't wearing them.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Here's a very interesting development.


    Self-taught businessman with no engineering credentials designed Missouri duck boat, records say
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.338f13aa36d3
    Will

  8. #78
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    It's an inspected vessel. If there were an engineering problem, the Coast Guard or whoever regulates surface passenger vehicles (up here it's the Transportation Division of the DPU) should have caught it.

    Our DPU always had nightmares with stretch limos, since those are so often small home shop jobs, some of which have a very high order of tech and craft and some are not much more than a schmo with a torch.

    If you scroll through the many many pix of DUKWs on the internet, you see a wide range of freeboard. In all but a few, it looks like the passenger seating deck is below the waterline.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    It is my understanding, and I am prepared to be corrected, that inspections of these sorts of tour boats in the US are normally left to the State in which they operate, unless they are navigating on Federal Waters. The question then is whether the State Inspectors are adequately trained and knowledgeable.

  10. #80
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    I know the Coast Guard inspects around here and know - read them - the regs and instructions issued by the Coast Guard. And this particular DUKW passed it's most recent USCG inspection though it had failed repeatedly in years past. See https://www.news5cleveland.com/homep...us-inspections

  11. #81
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Another issue, Gilbert, is what is done to the vessel between inspections. I believe that the inspection cycle for Sub-Chapter 10 vessels is every five years. In a fatal tour-boat accident in the USA mid-west a few years back, the tour boat (a real boat, not an ex-army vehicle) passed its inspection as an open boat. A short time later, the operator installed a hard canopy with fixed windows with no emergency exits. IIRC, nine people died in that one because they couldn't exit the vessel when it was overwhelmed by a sudden wind event brought on by thunderstorms in the area (sound familiar?). People do the most bone-headed things at times - usually not with any ill intent, but from mere ignorance - and there are not enough inspectors on the ground to check for dumb-ass errors frequently enough.

    Ian has made a very germane observation: If the passenger deck is below the waterline, there is no means of shedding water on deck fast enough to avert free-surface effects from it. Bad weather descends suddenly, water comes in through flimsy windows and canvas seams, there is an inch or two of water on deck, the boat pitches or rolls, and... people die.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    It's an inspected vessel. If there were an engineering problem, the Coast Guard or whoever regulates surface passenger vehicles (up here it's the Transportation Division of the DPU) should have caught it.

    Our DPU always had nightmares with stretch limos, since those are so often small home shop jobs, some of which have a very high order of tech and craft and some are not much more than a schmo with a torch.

    If you scroll through the many many pix of DUKWs on the internet, you see a wide range of freeboard. In all but a few, it looks like the passenger seating deck is below the waterline.
    I join mmd in thanking you for pointing this out. That seems like a fundamental problem.

  13. #83
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    I have no knowledge of the history of this vessel, I could probably find out more if I spent the time searching.....
    Absolutely right MMD what happens after the Inspector leaves is a whole different story. Hopefully the Inspector does at some level assess the owner/operator with regards to their competence and knowledge of their responsibilities, and get a sense of how they will perform after the inspection is completed.
    I think you might be referring to the tour boat that rolled over in a small up-state New York lake, killing a bunch of older retired folk. In that case the Inspections were carried out by the State, and not the USCG. In the final report this was pointed out as a potential problem. The vessel had been modified with a hard awning/enclosure.
    Ian's points are well taken. Keeping the water out and getting the water out are vital. These do not look like there is a lot of stability when fully loaded, and certainly not a lot of reserve buoyancy. I know appearances can be deceiving, so I will wait for a proper investigation. Are these things ( small passenger boats ) assessed for stability ( passenger heeling etc.) and damage stability, in this size in the US ?

  14. #84
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    I have a smattering of knowledge of the USCG regs for small passenger boats, but not enough to venture a definitive answer to your question, gilberj. I think - think - that a formal stability assessment, complete with inclining experiment and stability booklet featuring damaged stability and righting moment curves for various loadings, is not required for vessels carrying less than 50 passengers and/or under a certain length or tonnage. But I haven't looked at the USCG regs on this subject for quite a few years, and my memory ain't what it used to be. Maybe one of our USA Forumites knows this better than I and will mosey on by to enlighten us.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    These are trucks, not boats. Primarily they are for lightering cargo to landing beaches. After that they were mostly used as trucks. Many were lost at Anzio, they really don't like hostile fire. I doubt that the Army ever intended them to last very long.

  16. #86
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    SMALL PASSENGER VESSELS INSPECTED UNDER 46 CFR SUBCHAPTER "T"
    Two copies of plans listed below must also be submitted for review and approval:
    (a) Midship section
    (b) Outboard profile
    (c) Inboard profile
    (d) Arrangement of decks
    (e) Machinery installation
    (f) Electrical installation
    (g) Fuel tanks
    (h) Piping systems
    (i) Hull penetrations and shell connections
    (j) Survival craft embarkation stations
    (k) Lifesaving equipment locations and installation
    (l) Fire protection equipment installation
    (m) Marine sanitation device installation
    (n) Lines and offsets, curves of form, cross curves of stability, tank capacities.

    https://homeport.uscg.mil/Lists/Cont...0Submittal.pdf

  17. #87
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Yes, you need the USCG Limited Master Credential, I think 25 ton will do for this. You also need that state's commercial passenger driving license.
    My brother in law was a duck driver in the WI Dells back in 1999. He was in college. I checked with him this morning and he says all he had was a Wisconsin CDL.
    Last edited by Brian Palmer; 07-27-2018 at 07:07 PM.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    From MarineLog magazine:

    NTSB releases first details of recovered Stretch Duck 7 recordings

    JULY 29, 2018 The National Transportation Safety Board said Friday that it had completed of the initial review of the digital video recorder system recovered from the DUKW Stretch Duck 07 that sank July 19 near Branson, Missouri.

    The Ride the Ducks, Branson amphibious vehicle had 29 passengers and two crew members aboard for a tour when weather conditions deteriorated on Table Rock Lake. One crewmember and 16 passengers died in the accident.

    Recording media including an SD card and a removable hard drive from the vehicle's digital video recorder camera system were recovered by divers before the duck boat was salvaged. The digital video recorder media were immediately transferred to the NTSB laboratory in Washington.

    The digital video recorder recorded five channels of video: four outward facing and one inward facing. Audio was also recorded.

    The NTSB's initial review of the recorder provides the following information which is preliminary and will be supplemented or corrected during the investigation.

    The times presented here are as recorded by the DVR and have not yet been validated against local time.

    The information does not contain analysis. As such, says NTSB, no conclusions regarding the cause of the accident should be made from this preliminary information.

    https://www.marinelog.com/index.php?...ngs&Itemid=229
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  19. #89
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    The duck boat skipper has been indicted.

    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news...engers-n934051
    Will

  20. #90
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    While it is good that this is not being swept under the rug, the indictments against McKee is more an exercise in finding a scapegoat than addressing the fundamental problems with the vehicles. Should the operator of the vehicle be responsible for these failings of the vehicle? I think not - at best, he should be responsible for knowingly taking passengers out on a vehicle that is unsafe for the purpose, if it can be proven that he knew of the safety failings. The more fundamental issue is the culpability of the vehicle owners and the Coast Guard inspectors who either knew and ignored, or failed to do due diligence to discover, the stability and seaworthiness issues of the vehicle. DUKW's are dangerous, and should be avoided.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  21. #91
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    I assume the driver pulls to a stop, flips a switch and the bags inflate.
    Michigan seems like a dream to me now.

  22. #92
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by L.A Marche View Post
    Attachment 19792

    Dublin tour with floats and mandatory PDFs, with open top.
    And the paasengers down below where they should be.
    Mounting a platform on top of a DUCKW and loading it with people must do something to the center of gravity.
    Last edited by beernd; 11-09-2018 at 12:53 PM.
    Don't worry I'm happy

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    Justice is sometimes harder to achieve."

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  23. #93
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Michigan seems like a dream to me now.

  24. #94
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    ^^ Is that one of the cobbled-together vehicles that Cuban refugees used to try to escape from Castro?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  25. #95
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Yep. I'm amazed what people will do to escape from the communist paradise.

    http://www.floatingcubans.com/

    IMHO these would be good people to have come to America.

    Sorry for the thread drift.
    Will

  26. #96
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by willmarsh3 View Post
    IMHO these would be good people to have come to America.
    Say hello to my leetle friend !

    @mmd, according to your figures these vehicles are about ten times safer than walking around in a storm.

    "In the eight years since 2006, the US has recorded 30 fishing deaths, 16 camping deaths and 14 boating deaths from lightning strikes. Of the sports activities, football saw the highest number of deaths with 12, compared with golf's eight fatalities. Twelve people were killed working in gardens and 14 people died working on a farm or ranch."

    I guess we should make all these activities illegal as well. Gardening, too, which appears to be as dangerous as riding in a "duck boat" in a storm.

    Let's just legislate everythig out of existence. Then we can all sit home, chained to the bed, watching Discovery Channel. Pretty soon we can grow them big heads, like on an old Twilight Zone program. Goody goody. I can hardly wait.

    And oh yeah, we need to impose a mandatory $500,000 liability policy on every living being because if you are hit by lightning and your body explodes, you could create serious mental issues in anyone who saw it. Plus the cleanup costs ...

    Life is finite. Get over it.

  27. #97
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    Say hello to my leetle friend !

    @mmd, according to your figures these vehicles are about ten times safer than walking around in a storm

    "In the eight years since 2006, the US has recorded 30 fishing deaths, 16 camping deaths and 14 boating deaths from lightning strikes. Of the sports activities, football saw the highest number of deaths with 12, compared with golf's eight fatalities. Twelve people were killed working in gardens and 14 people died working on a farm or ranch."

    I guess we should make all these activities illegal as well. Gardening, too, which appears to be as dangerous as riding in a "duck boat" in a storm. Let's just legislate everythig out of existence. Then we can all sit home, chained to the bed, watching Discovery Channel. Pretty soon we can grow them big heads, like on an old Twilight Zone program. Goody goody. I can hardly wait.

    And oh yeah, we need to impose a mandatory $500,000 liability policy on every living being because if you are hit by lightning and your body explodes, you could create serious mental issues in anyone who saw it. Plus the cleanup costs .
    ...
    I take it you have a Ph.D. in either statistics or in b.s.
    My moneys on the latter...
    "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken." (stolen from TomF )

  28. #98
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by on the border View Post
    Say hello to my leetle friend !

    @mmd, according to your figures these vehicles are about ten times safer than walking around in a storm.

    "In the eight years since 2006, the US has recorded 30 fishing deaths, 16 camping deaths and 14 boating deaths from lightning strikes. Of the sports activities, football saw the highest number of deaths with 12, compared with golf's eight fatalities. Twelve people were killed working in gardens and 14 people died working on a farm or ranch."

    I guess we should make all these activities illegal as well. Gardening, too, which appears to be as dangerous as riding in a "duck boat" in a storm.

    Let's just legislate everythig out of existence. Then we can all sit home, chained to the bed, watching Discovery Channel. Pretty soon we can grow them big heads, like on an old Twilight Zone program. Goody goody. I can hardly wait.

    And oh yeah, we need to impose a mandatory $500,000 liability policy on every living being because if you are hit by lightning and your body explodes, you could create serious mental issues in anyone who saw it. Plus the cleanup costs ...

    Life is finite. Get over it.
    Time to add to the ignore list.

  29. #99
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by B_B View Post
    I take it you have a Ph.D. in either statistics or in b.s.
    My moneys on the latter...
    Well, here's a little exercise for you. mmd said that about forty people had been killed in "duck boat" accidents over the past ten years. That would average to 4 per year. Online information about people struck by lightning varies a lot by year, but some typical figures show about 200. That would mean that you are fifty times more likely to be killed by lightning than by riding a duck boat.

    In fact, one year 12 people were killed by lightning while gardening. That would mean that you are three times as likely to be killed by a lightning strike while gardening as you are to drown in a duckboat accident.

    Obviously gardening is dangerous. We should ban gardens. We cannot allow this sort of wanton disregard for human life to continue.

  30. #100
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    And how many people engaged in gardening vs how many rode in DUKW boats?

  31. #101
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy W View Post
    And how many people engaged in gardening vs how many rode in DUKW boats?
    How many people wear Argyle socks ? Who cares ? The numbers show us that gardening is more dangerous than riding in a duckboat. We need to regulate gardening. We need to add thousands of law enforcement officers and buy drones to overfly back yards. We need licensing and testing. Uncertified gardeners engaging in unsafe activities need to be punished. There are human lives at stake ! This is not something to take lightly !

  32. #102
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    On the border, I do not advocate "legislating everything out of existence". I do believe - both personally and professionally - that marine vehicles that are used for public conveyance should be held to a high level of safety, by law, so that the odds of passengers being harmed in them is as small as humanly possible. In my opinion, many DUKW's do not meet this level of safety. I am very much in favour of your right to have fun even if it is terribly dangerous to your life (e.g., base jumping, powerboat racing, cave diving, etc.) as long as it is only your life that you are endangering. However, knowingly taking risks with the lives of others who innocently think that you are going to keep them safe is quite another kettle of fish.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  33. #103
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    Default Re: 11 Dead as Thunderstorm Overwhelms "Duck" boat.

    Drinking coffee is deadly. Every person who drinks even a single cup of coffee will die.
    What stupid drivel.
    When a public risk can be diminished....it should be. Duck boats have had a number of accidents with fatalities. These accidents may not have the same root cause, I don't know. But when someone offers to carry people on their boat in exchange for money or compensation, they have an obligation, both morally and legally to offer a safe trip.
    Regulators can define safety on the water.
    1) the vessel is fit for the intended voyage....
    2) the crew is sufficient and competent.
    It's not possible to eliminate risk, but known risks can be mitigated.

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