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Thread: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

  1. #36
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Personally, I think that the prejudice against schooners is tied to the perception - formed a generation or two ago - that schooners are 'old technology' and should be eschewed in favour of the 'modern' Bermudan sloop.
    Exactly my feeling. It's another version of the blanket disdain for traditional rigs I've heard from every round-the-can sailor I've ever talked to. And also a nice, sticky truism.

    Top hamper and weight distribution are engineering problems, and if we're not talking about planing hulls, performance is relative. More spars and rigging means more expensive. Also means more things in the way either in the cockpit or cabin. But that's on par with other double stick configurations.

    Everything that doesn't have all haliards led back to the cockpit and two double bunks in 35ft, while still tacking through 80° is "impractical". Pick your poison.

    Back to topic, what really would interest me is why the tiller on Samanthe is so much longer than designed. To get the helmsman within reach of the fore sheets? Or is she just imbalanced with lot's of weather helm?

  2. #37
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Is that schooner CURRENTLY at Mystic? if not I'm pretty sure Vinny and Shawn George, forum members and former owners of the McIntosh pinky 'Acacia', Gilmer ketch 'Jenny Ives' and Alden 'Milky Way' own her now.
    Yep, Vinny and Shawn own her now. But Milky Way was a Crocker.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    There is no reason not to compare boats of similar size no matter what rig is used, they are all in use and available.




    You're being absurd.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    ^^ Well, I think navydog is technically correct. You *can* compare any two boats of similar size. Or, well any two boats really. Or a boat and an aardvark if you want. In the comparison above I know I prefer the Friendship sloop. I don't have to sail either one to know that. Picking between any two random boats - say one of the lovely little schooners on this thread and a bermuda-rigged Bayliner Buccaneer sloop - let's see... I'm going to say the schooner. Again, no need to sail one. Between a boat (any boat) and an aardvark? Apologies to the aardvark. I'm sure they are very nice animals but I'll take the boat.

    And yes, I know I'm being absurd!
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Milky Way was a Crocker.
    I wondered if I was wrong on that, but didn't look it up.
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

  6. #41
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post




    You're being absurd.
    Not at all. That's why there are so few wooden boats on the water, not that many gaffers, and few mini schooners. Other choices are abundant.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Why do you think that is, navydog?
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Why do you think that is, navydog?
    Which part of my comments are you asking about?

  9. #44
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Certainly referring to this, "so few wooden boats on the water, not that many gaffers, and few mini schooners. Other choices are abundant."
    I'd offer 1. mass production and mass salesmanship. 2. lack of experience and "the way of the world today (and for the last 70 or 100 years).

  10. #45
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Can I suggest that the missing piece of this entire debate is context? For example the statement "small schooners are impractical" is undeniable. I mean, all sailboats are "impractical" in some context (e.g. no wind) and in comparison to some other mode of transportation (a bus for example). But here we are on the WBF where practicality is really low on everyone's list of criteria. Far below aesthetics, for example. I think we can safely say that everyone here values beauty and art over pragmatism otherwise we would be over on Trawler Forum. Or not playing with boats at all. No?
    - Chris

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  11. #46
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    I think we can safely say that everyone here values beauty and art over pragmatism otherwise we would be over on Trawler Forum. Or not playing with boats at all. No?
    I certainly do in this regard.

    Hell, if she were for sale on this side of the pond and I had money to spend, I would be hard pressed to justify that purchase over something more reasonable and proven like a Folke, Vivier or Oughtred. But she's certainly been the one I was dreaming about.
    I wanted to share that and also maybe do a small piece in finding a new home for this lovely piece of art.

    I have a few thousand miles of gaff schooner sailing in my log. So please stop sailsplaining schooners to me, navydog. No need. Don't know why you came here with an axe to grind, but I don't care for it.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    "Which part of my comments are you asking about? " - navydog

    The part where you explain why there are so few wooden boats, gaff rigs, and mini-schooners (whatever those are) about. Please don't just repeat that "other choices are abundant".
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Oh goodness you hit the nail on the head already and dismissed the answer. Same reason no one drives model T Ford's. Newer better technology. I assume your not using a Commodore computer to post here.

    Morizt I didn't come here with an axe to grind, some folks just can't stand to have their favorite idea scrutinized. If we were talking about Sharpies and I said they don't make great live aboards someone would be offended.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Navydog, I think there is a difference between dismissing something as "impractical" (broad brush, no context) vs. leveling a specific criticism ("sharpies don't make great liveaboards because they have no headroom"). The first statement is difficult to support because it's a matter of degree. Practical for what? In comparison to what? The second is more easily argued. Now if you made a statement of personal preference ("I'm not a fan of small schooners because they are a bit too close to being character boats. I'd rather sail a wishbone cat ketch" or whatever then that's fair enough.
    - Chris

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  15. #50
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    That's close to the truth as there are so few of them.
    Don't confuse the product of a niche market with a product lacking any value.

    I have no interest in a so-called "super-car": I can't afford to buy it, run it, or insure it; it can't tow my boat or haul a dinghy; it is not the type of driving I enjoy; and I, personally, find its environmental costs deeply objectionable. Why do such things even exist? Because they're a niche market, and the numbers of them, as a percentage of the total number of vehicles on the road, reflect that. While I consider them utterly pointless icons of a offensive set of values and priorities, I still enjoy looking at photos of them (I've never encountered one in person) because they are exceptional pieces of craftsmanship. I admit that I shake my head at how someone would ever go so far as to put one in their garage, but I can't say they haven't earned a place in the catalogue of automobile types.

    Small schooners may not be practical for everyone, but they have clearly proven practical for some.

    Equinox, the 26' schooner Paul Pless posted in #30, was designed and built by Ralph for a man named Sage Goodwin, who had to sell his beloved 26' Friendship sloop, Eagle, because of age-related declining ability/mobility. (My father and I looked at Eagle with an eye toward purchasing her, but she wasn't right for us.) She was built with a conveniently broken sailplan that could be handled from the cockpit, shallow draft (she has a CB) so that her mooring could be placed close to shore for an easy row out to it (this was in an era when marinas were a rarity in Maine, and nonexistant in Southwest Harbor), an outboard engine on her hip for easy operation from the cockpit, and easy access between cockpit and cabin. Could the same requirements have been done in a sloop? Sure. Of the same size, and to the same aesthetic? I doubt it. So in that sense, she was entirely practical.

    Niche market.

    Alex

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Let's see; free-standing carbon-fibre masts, carbon-fibre booms, square-headed fully-battened sails on batten cars, cold-molded hull designed to maximize waterline length, hydraulic centreboard; yup, it's old technology.

    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    folks just can't stand to have their favorite idea scrutinized.
    You must be really fun at parties.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Chris,
    I was pretty clear actually "l. A ton of little sails and lines where a boat of that size could be run with one or two sails without any issues."

    To any sailor this is referring to a sloop or cat boat. 2 halyards, 3 sheets and only one mast below deck on a nearly modern sloop. But hey it's a cute boat.

    .

  19. #54
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Let's see; free-standing carbon-fibre masts, carbon-fibre booms, square-headed fully-battened sails on batten cars, cold-molded hull designed to maximize waterline length, hydraulic centreboard; yup, it's old technology.

    Really? Your comparing an old gaffer to that and saying they are the same? BTW I see 2 sails.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    You must be really fun at parties.
    This is one hell of a party!

  21. #56
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    No, I am comparing modern schooners to modern sloops. You are being disingenuous. You seem to want to compare a traditional gaff schooner to a modern sloop, so I showed a modern schooner. Should you wish to compare gaff sloops and gaff schooners, please feel free to use these as examples:

    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Sorry, Navydog; I really didn't mean to jump all over you. We apparently disagree about small schooners, but if I was rude, I apologize. This isn't The Bilge, and I didn't intend to bring a stink abovedecks.

    Alex

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    This is one hell of a party!
    Hmhm. Glad you were having fun. But this is the point where I politely ask you to leave because I'm not enjoying your company.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Alex, I accept your apology. But really it's no big deal anyway. If someone wants to believe something other then what I do, I dont mind. I don't really care if someone becomes rude because it is only a reflection of themselves.

    Your point about practicality for certain people is valid as it applies to a small group. But for the most part gaff rigged schooners were dropped a long time ago for better rigs.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Now that that's settled, I'd like to come back to a question that's been bothering me as I look at the pictures vs the sail plan of Samanthe.

    Why is the tiller a good foot longer than drawn. Any thoughts?

  26. #61
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    No, I am comparing modern schooners to modern sloops. You are being disingenuous. You seem to want to compare a traditional gaff schooner to a modern sloop, so I showed a modern schooner. Should you wish to compare gaff sloops and gaff schooners, please feel free to use these as examples:

    No I'm comparing that 28' schooner to a similar sized wood boat rigged as a sloop or cat because they are both currently available. If you think a little schooner is as easily sailed and operated as a sloop Its fine with me I just don't agree. There is no point in arguing with me about it.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Now that you have refined your wording to "gaff schooners", I will agree with you, sort of. Precision in terminology is necessary for clear communication.

    The primary driver of boat design is creating the boat to suit the needs and desires of the owner. Some rigs are better for some uses than others. Bermudan sloops have become popular because they are simple to use, easy to learn how to use them well, tacking is easy, and the rig is well-suited to the majority of the boats that the yachting public use. However, the sloop rig becomes less desirable in some uses and conditions; blue-water cruisers usually prefer more numerous and smaller sails to allow multiple sail configurations to be set to suit wind conditions, and short-handed and solo sailors often reject sloops because the mainsail is too big to handle (unless you can afford hydraulics to assist). But if coastal cruising and/or round-the-cans racing is your thing, and you can round up the required number of crew to handle the multiple tasks involved in tacking quickly while racing, then a sloop is your best bet.

    Different horses for different courses, navydog, and the best boat rig is the one that suits you and your type of sailing best. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.


    Edit to add: While I was typing this, you posted the post above. I guess that we will have to just disagree, then, because I believe that you are not being reasonable in your comparisons of a traditional gaff schooner rig and a modern Bermudan sloop rig. Have a good day...
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    @mmd any thoughts on the tiller? It looks exceptionally long to me. Definitely longer than on the sail plan.



    Last edited by MoritzSchwarzer; 07-18-2018 at 04:15 PM.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    I can only guess, Moritz, but I think that it was extended so that the helmsman could reach the sheets at the aft bulkhead of the cabin and the winch seen on the side deck beside him, probably done that way so that he can sail the boat solo or short-handed.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Certainly a better scenario than "she just has lots of weather helm". Robert Baker knew what he was doing by all accounts, so I'm inclined to go with the former as well.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    The picture of the little schooner at Mystic reminds me of one named Galatea we had back in my days at the yacht brokerage. She was a schooner-rigged Friendship Sloop, built by McKie Roth, a boatbuilder from Oakland who'd apprenticed in Maine and built several Friendships. (He later became a well-known house architect.) She was 30' and had a schooner rig, IIRC. That was unusual for a Friendship "sloop," but I believe there were a few others similarly rigged. She was bought by Stewart Brand, of Ken Kesey's "Merry Prankster's" fame, who later was the editor of the Whole Earth Catalog. Stewart sailed her on SF Bay out of Sausalito, where he lieved (and still lives) on a houseboat.

    Galatea wasn't ever intended to be anything but a pretty little boat that gave pleasure to those who sailed her and those who saw her sailing. She was close to, if not quite, what we used to call a "character boat," or a "folly." These were boats that were somewhat "miniature," but carried rigs that were detailed as if they were larger boats. Character boats were, and I suppose are, relatively rare. They were often not entirely "practical" by conventional standards, but were "toys" (in the good sense.) I've seen and sometimes sailed on character boats like a couple of 28' Atkin Maid of Kent schooners that Atking designed as character boats. (He did several, one, Stardust, that was even smaller than Maid of Kent.) One Maid of Kent was rigged as a square topsail schooner and she really carried a lot of lines and top hamper, but she never failed to turn heads wherever she went. Some character boats, while smaller than their prototypes, were somewhat large. Renegade, which was somewhere around 48', IIRC, carried a full brigantine rig and even a "fighting top."

    As for small schooners, I think the conventional wisdom of experienced sailors that a decent schooner has to be above 30' or so is really a function of utility. The whole point of a schooner rig is to break down the sail area into easily manageable parts. As the coasting schoonermen used to say, "A good schooner can be sailed by one man and an idiot boy." (Indeed, in their day, an "idiot boy" was exactly that, a young man who lacked the cognitive ability to do much else but take direction.) For working sailormen, there was no logic to building a vessel with two masts to divide the sail area if the sails were small enough to be handled on one mast. That would just be a huge waste of money, not to mention work when it came to sailing her. it wasn't until the recreational sailing community fell in love with the romance of schooners that smaller ones started to be built. Until then, there was no sense in building them.



    See: http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/L...aidOfKent.html
    Last edited by Bob Cleek; 07-18-2018 at 08:02 PM.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Years ago, I owned a small schooner: a 23 foot LOD lapstrake surfboat that had been turned into a sailboat. Concrete keel/ballast and a wee schooner rig: jib, gaff fore and gaff main. There was a cuddy with a woodstove, a big sculling oar, and a cantankerous British Seagull that belched black smoke and created an oil slick when it decided to run. I was 20 years old and pretty sure I was the saltiest guy around. It was a fun boat when the wind blew and a slug in anything other than a good breeze. Lots of strings to pull.

    I often did not bother with gasoline for the outboard. In the San Juan Islands with light winds in the summer and early fall, it took forever to get anywhere. My slowest passage was 2 1/2 days to go about 40 miles. I will say that got old fast.

    I sold her a few years later and if I buy another schooner, she will be big enough to live aboard and have a good diesel engine.
    Elect a clown expect a circus

  33. #68
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    She's back, this time at the back of the mag under Save a Classic. Shame that I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic. I very much hope she finds a good new home.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    I've admired her at the dock almost every time I've been in Greenport. What a beautiful boat. I wonder what the asking price is.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Rig, schmig. It's the galley and the cockpit that sell most sailboats -- comfort and elegance at anchor or at the dock.

    I like that phrase from early in the thread: "Ego Alley". Funny! The guy who was docked next to me for a couple of summers had the best grass at the Marina.

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