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Thread: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

  1. #1
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    Default The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Samanthe is listed for sale in WB263 and on the website. Ever since I saw her in an article about pocket schooners in WB254, I've been in love with this one. She is about the only schooner of that size that I can think of that really hangs together and doesn't look like a bathtub toy. Now she may be a lot of boat for little practical use, but man those lines are gorgeous.

    Now, 33 grand is way out of my current budget, she's on the wrong side of the pond for me, and I have the plans from Mystic Seaport and the dream of building her myself at some point. But I sure would like to see her end up in good hands.

    An older thread with some more pictures.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Hmmm,.... I may have to give a loook for her when I’m in Greenport next week. Cute!

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    It looks great but at 27' it is actually impractical. A ton of little sails and lines where a boat of that size could be run with one or two sails without any issues.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Maybe the second cutest schooner. I’d have to put Dorothy Elizabeth first.







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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by navydog View Post
    It looks great but at 27' it is actually impractical. A ton of little sails and lines where a boat of that size could be run with one or two sails without any issues.
    Thanks, Captain Obvious. Practicality is kinda besides the point. For that I would buy a used frozen snot Folkeboat.

    Quote Originally Posted by nedL View Post
    Hmmm,.... I may have to give a loook for her when I’m in Greenport next week. Cute!
    I strongly encourage you to do so! If I was anywhere near, I would have done so myself already. And any pictures woud be awesome.

    Quote Originally Posted by StevenBauer View Post
    Maybe the second cutest schooner. I’d have to put Dorothy Elizabeth first.
    Uuh, now that's a beauty as well. Abot the same size and obviously cut from the same cloth. Do you have any more pictures? I didn't know about her at all. And there is a book! I'll have to get that.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by MoritzSchwarzer View Post
    Thanks, Captain Obvious. Practicality is kinda besides the point.
    .
    Only if your plan is to sit around Ego Alley and never take it out.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Maybe the second cutest schooner. I’d have to put Dorothy Elizabeth first.
    That's a good photo of her. And I have to agree with you --but I'm *severely* biased: She's the "stretched" version of my sloop, Bucephalus. Designed and built by Ralph Stanley for the author and sailor Roger Duncan when Roger decided he was getting too old for his 32' Friendship sloop, Eastward.

    Alex

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    Default

    It might have lots of lines to deal with but should be quite easy as it has ETNZ cycle powered winches if you look at the picture


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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    As far as I know, Samanthe has been owned, or at least cared for and perhaps used for day charters by Donn Costanzo's top shelf wood boatyard: http://www.woodenboatworks.com/
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    As far as I know, Samanthe has been owned, or at least cared for and perhaps used for day charters by Donn Costanzo's top shelf wood boatyard: http://www.woodenboatworks.com/
    Yup. I know a tallship hand who captained her for a while. Former shipmate.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Of course little schooners are not "practical". What fun would life be if everything were practical. For starters, I guess we wouldn't have a need for this web site. Lol

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Out of curiosity, since I don't know much about sailing anything larger than a dinghy, why would a schooner be more complicated to sail than a ketch? Plenty of ketches in that size range (H28 to start with).
    - Chris

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Dennis Conner's schooner "Fame" is over 100 years of age and still racing! At 40 feet in length she is close to the, supposed, lower practical length for the schooner rig on a small boat. The word "practical" is the clue because shorter than thirty five feet is considered, by many, the critical dividing line for schooner rigs. While pretty at any length, the schooner becomes a mass of the clutter and windage caused by spars, sheets and essential rigging to operate that "Schooner Rig" we all admire and love.
    Jay

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    And had Dennis left her properly rigged, she would still be a lovely boat. But he went and 'updated' her...

    Designed by B.B. Crowninshield (and he knew a thing or two about schooners, I believe), for his own use, as the largest boat he could single hand. Of course, once seen, others wanted to play, and so came along the Sound Schooner. A bit longer than the original post, and narrow... Just under six tons. Beautiful boats.

    Someday...
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    I dunno about that "35 feet being the smallest practical schooner" thing. As an example (because I don't have any digitized photos of local NS schooner-rigged inshore fishing boats at hand), how about the revered William Atkin's 27-foot "Coot":





    Then there is the 22.5-ft Florence Oakland

    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    wow, wasn't expecting to see the modern bicycle style grinder like the americas cup foiling multi's have
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    I've seen Samanthe under sail, she's a peach.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    I dunno about that "35 feet being the smallest practical schooner" thing. As an example (because I don't have any digitized photos of local NS schooner-rigged inshore fishing boats at hand), how about the revered William Atkin's 27-foot "Coot":






    Then there is the 22.5-ft Florence Oakland

    Well, as our Canadian friends might say: That "Coot" is too short and beamy a Boot to perform worth a Hoot. She would be better off being rigged as a Sloop!
    Jay

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Rigging as a sloop lengthens and slims a hull? I didn't know that... <wink, grin>

    As an aside, I have lived in five Canadian provinces, and met folks from all across our country, and the only people I know who pronounce "about" as "a-boot" are Americans trying to emulate a Canadian regional accent. Personally, I think that it is a myth that anyone up here talks like that. Now, a south-coast Newfoundland accent, or closer to my home, a Nova Scotian South Shore accent is a wonder to behold.
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    I've sailed on Perseverance, near sister to Samanthe, and i've sailed on H-28s. As far as the 'complications' of setting and trimming sails, each are about the same. Just depends on what you prefer. The less obstructed cockpit of the schooner was something that appealed to me.

    perseverance.jpg

    Perseverance In Rockland.jpg
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    My dear friend Hale Field, who passed over the bar much too soon. Was the naval arhictect and designer and owner of both the small schooners "Hawk" and "Lively"
    Hale knew very well that these designs were not ideal as sailing craft but he needed boats that were small enought to be tied up at his dock rather than tied up in the stream as he had restrictions in moving about that dictated being able to step on board from his float rather than rowing out to a mooring. He also loved schooners and traditional rigs so he was not hell bent on having a fast high tech boat to sail. Hale told me once that he knew the boats were slow but he wasn't in a hurry. So, that is why the boats turned out as they did. Actually "Hawk" was just too small and was swamped in a knockdown during the Master Mariners race in Long Beach one year. Hale and His daughter Linda nearly sank and so Hale decided to build "Lively" a boat that had more stability and size for accommodations below. "Lively" is advertized today for charter as being thirty six feet in length but I suspect that is including the bow sprit in that measurement. My guess is that the boat is actually 28 to 30 feet LOA.

    My son Jaime recently went on a sail in her and remarked how poorly the boat performs compared to other boats of that length he has sailed and skippered. "Damn slow and pitches fore and aft a lot!" was his evaluation of "Lively". Much of the uncomfotable motion is the result of weight aloft from the spars and the flam of her sections forward that cause her to lift too rapidly when heading into a chop. I think most of you who are accustomed to sailing schooners over thirty five to forty feet in length will agree with this evaluation. My all time favorite is "Wanderlure II" an Alden Schooner that is thirty eight feet on deck and is comfortable in any sea and sails like no other schooner I have ever known! They all have their own singular appeal but I do like a longer hull of thirty five feet or more to make a good performing schooner boat!
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-17-2018 at 02:51 PM.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Z. View Post
    And had Dennis left her properly rigged, she would still be a lovely boat. But he went and 'updated' her...

    Designed by B.B. Crowninshield (and he knew a thing or two about schooners, I believe), for his own use, as the largest boat he could single hand. Of course, once seen, others wanted to play, and so came along the Sound Schooner. A bit longer than the original post, and narrow... Just under six tons. Beautiful boats.

    Someday...
    I do prefer the lapping fore that she once carried rather than boomed one he added. He should have left that alone.
    Here is a shot from her race where she beat "Black Adder"
    http://da-woody.com/13NYD/2013NYD568.JPG
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 07-17-2018 at 03:16 PM.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Regarding the linguist issue broached on this thread:

    It is my belief that Americans claim Canadians say "aboot" is because the vowel sound many Americans use is more realistically spelled "abayowt". (Obviously, I am exaggerating.) The point is, the very long dipthong they are used to makes our shorter one sound even shorter, to their ears.

    Interesting info on Wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diphthong

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Wow,maybe now we all will be wishing for longer dipthongs!
    Bird

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    My wife used to teach in a small village called New Germany. The area has a wonderfully rich accent, punctuated by regional colloquial terms. A phonetically spelled example:

    "Go o-vah they-ah an' shet the dough-ah of yow-ah caaah."

    (Go over there and shut the door of your car.)

    You can't make this stuff up...
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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    You can't make this stuff up...
    Why would anyone think you made that up? That sounds like home (SWHbr, ME), to me... dee-ah!

    On the schooner thread, my honorary grandmother's father, Rodman Swift, had the 27' Alden schooner Tyche. Alden didn't like the boat, thought she was too small to be a schooner and should have been a sloop. Rodman disagreed completely, and loved the sailplan. Sometimes the owner is right.

    If small schooners didn't have any worthwhile attributes, they wouldn't exist.

    Alex

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post

    If small schooners didn't have any worth while attributes, they wouldn't exist.

    Alex
    That's close to the truth as there are so few of them.
    Last edited by navydog; 07-18-2018 at 10:22 AM.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Pitsligo, I have visited SWHbr, ME and the accents do indeed have many similarities. There are differences in timbre and rate of speech, but otherwise similar. What really sets them apart, though, is the local colloquialisms. I wasn't in SWHbr, ME long enough to pick up on any of the local ones there, but know the New Germany/Lunenburg County ones well. Words like "aiglish" (difficult, fussy; as in threading a needle) and "peinsy" (whiney and fidgety, as a small child does), which came down through the generations from the original settler's Germanic roots, and phrases like "some good", which actually means "really good" are still in common usage.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Pitsligo, I have visited SWHbr, ME and the accents do indeed have many similarities. There are differences in timbre and rate of speech, but otherwise similar. What really sets them apart, though, is the local colloquialisms. I wasn't in SWHbr, ME long enough to pick up on any of the local ones there, but know the New Germany/Lunenburg County ones well. Words like "aiglish" (difficult, fussy; as in threading a needle) and "peinsy" (whiney and fidgety, as a small child does), which came down through the generations from the original settler's Germanic roots, and phrases like "some good", which actually means "really good" are still in common usage.
    Hey since this thread has drifted well away from the OP, I'll add an anecdote. I grew up in Seattle, which is almost devoid of regional speech (well, we used to say "pop" instead of "soda" but that's changed now that so many people here are actually Californians). But I picked up the habit of saying "ayuh" - a general statement of affirmation - from my Dad. As in "That boat sure is pretty, ayuh." Didn't realize until I was an adult that it's a Maine-ism that came from his upbringing there.

    Still wondering why small schooners are impractical though. Just the weight of the spars in relation to the hull limiting performance? Or is there also some complexity of the strings needing to be pulled to make it go?
    - Chris

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    This schooner is owned by Mystic seaport and is pretty damned cute and is for sale for $10K.











    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    "Still wondering why small schooners are impractical though."

    They are not. The difference between a modern sloop and a modern schooner is one mast and two strings. If you compare a gaff schooner to a gaff sloop, the difference is one mast and two strings. But the sloop fans will compare a single-headsail Bermudan sloop to a double-headsail gaff-schooner with uppers and fisherman's staysail. There is certainly more weight aloft with a schooner, but usually a schooner rig is not as tall as a sloop's, so the heeling moments are similar. Finally, when the wind pipes up, it is much easier to reduce sail and keep the balance of the boat. But I will give credit to a sloop in a tacking duel; three sails take more time to move about and sheet in than two.

    Personally, I think that the prejudice against schooners is tied to the perception - formed a generation or two ago - that schooners are 'old technology' and should be eschewed in favour of the 'modern' Bermudan sloop. However, I recognize that I am probably heavily influenced by my place of birth and history.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    This schooner is owned by Mystic seaport and is pretty damned cute and is for sale for $10K.










    Is that schooner CURRENTLY at Mystic? if not I'm pretty sure Vinny and Shawn George, forum members and former owners of the McIntosh pinky 'Acacia', Gilmer ketch 'Jenny Ives' and Alden 'Milky Way' own her now.
    “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world's great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs."

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    If you're right, Dave, good for Vinny and Shawn!

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    "Still wondering why small schooners are impractical though."

    They are not. The difference between a modern sloop and a modern schooner is one mast and two strings. If you compare a gaff schooner to a gaff sloop, the difference is one mast and two strings. But the sloop fans will compare a single-headsail Bermudan sloop to a double-headsail gaff-schooner with uppers and fisherman's staysail. There is certainly more weight aloft with a schooner, but usually a schooner rig is not as tall as a sloop's, so the heeling moments are similar. Finally, when the wind pipes up, it is much easier to reduce sail and keep the balance of the boat. But I will give credit to a sloop in a tacking duel; three sails take more time to move about and sheet in than two.

    Personally, I think that the prejudice against schooners is tied to the perception - formed a generation or two ago - that schooners are 'old technology' and should be eschewed in favour of the 'modern' Bermudan sloop. However, I recognize that I am probably heavily influenced by my place of birth and history.
    There is no reason not to compare boats of similar size no matter what rig is used, they are all in use and available.

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    Default Re: The cutest schooner - listed in WB

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    "Still wondering why small schooners are impractical though."

    They are not. The difference between a modern sloop and a modern schooner is one mast and two strings. If you compare a gaff schooner to a gaff sloop, the difference is one mast and two strings. But the sloop fans will compare a single-headsail Bermudan sloop to a double-headsail gaff-schooner with uppers and fisherman's staysail. There is certainly more weight aloft with a schooner, but usually a schooner rig is not as tall as a sloop's, so the heeling moments are similar. Finally, when the wind pipes up, it is much easier to reduce sail and keep the balance of the boat. But I will give credit to a sloop in a tacking duel; three sails take more time to move about and sheet in than two.

    Personally, I think that the prejudice against schooners is tied to the perception - formed a generation or two ago - that schooners are 'old technology' and should be eschewed in favour of the 'modern' Bermudan sloop. However, I recognize that I am probably heavily influenced by my place of birth and history.
    Thanks Michael. That's what my intuition told me as well but good to hear it from an expert. Obviously opinions will differ based on personal preference and experience (navydog) but it's useful to understand the actual nature of the difference. It seems like it's more in the realm of "Colin Archer ketches are slow and won't point - I'd rather sail a J/24" rather than "an 18' square-rigged faux pirate ship is an impractical contrivance not a real sailboat" (with apologies to anyone out there who sails an 18' square-rigged faux pirate ship and enjoys it).
    - Chris

    Life is short. Go boating now!

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