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Thread: looking for a good screw

  1. #36
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Robertson. Hands down, no contest.

    Takes high torque without cam-out, screw stays on screwdriver in all positions, no little bitty pointy bits on either screw head or screwdriver to wear off, screwdriver handles are colour-coded by size for easy ID.
    +1

    I had rarely seen them until I bought a Canadian boat 12 years ago. I replace others with Robertsons when I can.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    If you're into old Chevs (mine was a 59) you'll need 3 different sized screwdrivers for these goldanged friggers
    Yeah, clutch drive. Also used on Avion camping trailers, DAMHIK.

    For me, torx are pretty good, and easily available. I like Robertsons too, but I have to leave the country to drive over to Canadian Tire in Gananoque to buy them. Nobody seems to carry them on the “green money” side of the river.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve McMahon View Post
    +1
    i throw out all others.
    +2. Make sure though that they're Robertson, not just imitation square drives. The genuine ones are very slightly tapered so stay on the bit better when you have to poke into an odd corner and drive a screw in.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    A handy man tip from the ukulele site I visit.


  5. #40
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    +2. Make sure though that they're Robertson, not just imitation square drives. The genuine ones are very slightly tapered so stay on the bit better when you have to poke into an odd corner and drive a screw in.



    John Welsford


    Yes. American "square drive" leaves the draft out of the recess and the taper out of the tip, so not much better than a crappy Phillips drive.

    My local hardware store in Seattle (Stone Way Hardware) stocks actual Robertson brand drivers and proper Robertson drove screws. Makes all the difference in the world.

    Favorite screw drives? Either Robertson or Frearson (aka Reed+Prince aka ANSI Type II Cross Recess.

    Frearson is like a Phillips drive, if Phillips drives had been designed by a competent engineer. It is tapered, like a Robertson. And, unlike a Phillips, any Frearson driver will fit any Frearson screw of that size or smaller. So my #14 Frearson driver will drive a #6 Frearson screw just fine.

    Try driving a screw sized for a #1 Phillips driver with a normal #2 Phillips driver and weep.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  6. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnw View Post
    The other difference is that Phillips are designed to cam out, to avoid over tightening. It's really for manufacturers whose employees use very powerful drivers.


    Phillips wasn't so much as designed to cam out as the cam-out was a design defect. Because of that they were a commercial failure. Until a smart marketing guy down in Portland bought the rights for a relative song and marketed the cam-out as a feature, not a bug.

    In the early days of power drivers in the auto industry and elsewhere, before they had come up with power drivers with clutches that slipped at a preset torque, broken screws were a huge problem.

    Phillips drive screws' cam-out at a relatively low torque made the use of power drivers on the assembly line feasible.

    Early Ford Model Ts were assembled with Robertson screws for that very reason. Henry Ford ditched them for Phillips because he wanted everything made in-house -- at the Rouge River plant, pretty much raw materials came in, iron ore, sand, etc., and automobiles rolled out.

    Robertson wouldn't license his patents to Ford: Rouge River couldn't make the screws, and so Phillips became entrenched here in the States.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  7. #42
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor;5621013[B
    ]In my mind, there's no such thing as a square drive, it's called Roberston. [/B]Flat screw drivers are called slot screwdrivers, you show your lack of knowledge otherwise. Philips are just so and if you refer to them as a "star" screwdriver, I'll repeatedly ask you what you're talking about. As a navy man, terminology is important to me. Critically so in many situations. Most of you are sailors and can understand that.
    Robertson hands down, there's no comparison with anything out there.
    This part of the world, search for Robertson screws, and Google comes extremely close to drawing a blank and going huh?
    Square drives aplenty, but "Robertson", as a brand or head type are virtually unheard of.

    Pete
    Don't underestimate the power of stupid people in large numbers!

  8. #43
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    I ditched everything and only use torx.
    Don't worry I'm happy

    "The law is what we have to live with.
    Justice is sometimes harder to achieve."

    Sherlock Holmes

  9. #44
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by epoxyboy View Post
    This part of the world, search for Robertson screws, and Google comes extremely close to drawing a blank and going huh?
    Square drives aplenty, but "Robertson", as a brand or head type are virtually unheard of.

    Pete
    There was an agent in NZ years ago, and I happened into their shop when they were just about to shut down, spent darn near every penny I had to buy everything I could at what I suspect was landed cost. I've still got some boxes, but have bought more while in Canada where they're the norm, and dragged them home in my baggage. 5000 25mm c/s ss screws dont weigh all that much.
    There is though an agent in Brisbane who will ship them across.
    Note that if you do manage to get some, you need Robertson bits to go with them.


    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  10. #45
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    There are some surprisingly good screws coming out of Asia these days. The quality is there, if you search for it.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

  11. #46
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    Just so, let's just see Katherine try to flame me on this thread like she did on the bush hog thread last night!
    Dude. Any thread that contains mention of you, Kat, screws, and bush hogs is already doomed.

    What are you doing about it?




  12. #47
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    On the car, everything I touch becomes hex head (allen).

    On anything nonmetallic, I must begrudgingly acknowledge that I favor torx heads, unless it's a trim screw or something small enough that square drive makes more sense.

    I used some flathead bronze screws the other day. Felt like a friggin caveman.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Yes. American "square drive" leaves the draft out of the recess and the taper out of the tip, so not much better than a crappy Phillips drive.

    My local hardware store in Seattle (Stone Way Hardware) stocks actual Robertson brand drivers and proper Robertson drove screws. Makes all the difference in the world.

    Favorite screw drives? Either Robertson or Frearson (aka Reed+Prince aka ANSI Type II Cross Recess.

    Frearson is like a Phillips drive, if Phillips drives had been designed by a competent engineer. It is tapered, like a Robertson. And, unlike a Phillips, any Frearson driver will fit any Frearson screw of that size or smaller. So my #14 Frearson driver will drive a #6 Frearson screw just fine.

    Try driving a screw sized for a #1 Phillips driver with a normal #2 Phillips driver and weep.
    I agree that the Robertson is superior. The bolded bit, however, goes too far. Way too far.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  14. #49
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    It's good to be mindful of what is used should another have need to take it apart in the future. I hate finding surprises left by the last guy.
    Nosce te ipsum

  15. #50
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Dryfoot View Post
    It's good to be mindful of what is used should another have need to take it apart in the future. I hate finding surprises left by the last guy.
    Words to live by.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #51
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    I prefer Roberton over Torx, because sooner or later you will have to remove some of them. Cleaning out the square socket of crap or filler is massively easier than cleaning out a Torx head.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    You can even pick lead out of them, although it's not fun. (And a curse on whomever thought up the idea of filling window bar screw heads with hot lead!)
    Last edited by Flying Orca; 07-13-2018 at 12:17 PM.

    What are you doing about it?




  18. #53
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Not just Torx, but specifically GRK™ brand
    IMMIGRANTS BUILT AMERICA - IMMIGRANTS BUILD AMERICA

  19. #54
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Bow View Post
    Not just Torx, but specifically GRK™ brand
    News to me. Why?
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  20. #55
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    On the car, everything I touch becomes hex head (allen).

    On anything nonmetallic, I must begrudgingly acknowledge that I favor torx heads, unless it's a trim screw or something small enough that square drive makes more sense.

    I used some flathead bronze screws the other day. Felt like a friggin caveman.
    I've got boxes and boxes of slotted silicone bronze screws, haven't used one in many years. Doubt that I'd ever use them, I'm hoping someone will ask me if they could buy some.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    I've got boxes and boxes of slotted silicone bronze screws, haven't used one in many years. Doubt that I'd ever use them, I'm hoping someone will ask me if they could buy some.

    John Welsford
    Casting material??
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  22. #57
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    I really tried to like Robertson and torx drive, but I ran into supply problems and a lot more stuck bit problems. Generally I avoid screws in general, because I'd rather through bolt or peg and glue. So where I've ended up using screws is in places where I need to put in a hundred or so at a time. Which turns out to favor phillips with a clutch drive. The screws seat on the head quicker, and far less often am I pulling the bit out of the chuck because it's so stuck in the screw. The hardest situation has been needing SS screws in oak and mahogany. Precisely large enough pilot holes became very important to keep from stripping the hole or the screw head.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Around here they say, "you can always get a good screw in Rockford", fastener capital of the USA (formerly, World).

  24. #59
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    My experience with square drive is that they are not so good for softer metals. Harder, better grades of steel screws are great, but the rest, not so much...

  25. #60
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    I really tried to like Robertson and torx drive, but I ran into supply problems and a lot more stuck bit problems. Generally I avoid screws in general, because I'd rather through bolt or peg and glue. So where I've ended up using screws is in places where I need to put in a hundred or so at a time. Which turns out to favor phillips with a clutch drive. The screws seat on the head quicker, and far less often am I pulling the bit out of the chuck because it's so stuck in the screw. The hardest situation has been needing SS screws in oak and mahogany. Precisely large enough pilot holes became very important to keep from stripping the hole or the screw head.
    I'm not getting you, here.
    Rattling the teacups.

  26. #61
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    This is all very interesting and entertaining. I'll keep Robertson screw heads in mind for later.

    One lesson I learned recently is not to use philips head screws on something that is bunged. When I recently removed the old hand rails from my boat I found them to be all bunged philips head screws. Many of them were filled in with epoxy or glue making removal difficult. I often ended up cutting or breaking the hand rail on either side and twisting the wooden part that carried the screw loose. A few were slotted and so much easier to clean out to get a proper engagement with the screw driver.

    I ordered bronze flat head slotted bolts as a replacement.
    Will

  27. #62
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Corvida View Post
    The hardest situation has been needing SS screws in oak and mahogany. Precisely large enough pilot holes became very important to keep from stripping the hole or the screw head.
    A local place stocks SS, Robertson-head screws in pretty much any size you might want; I used them exclusively on my build. Never had a problem with stripping or damaged heads.

    What are you doing about it?




  28. #63
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Canoeyawl View Post
    My experience with square drive is that they are not so good for softer metals. Harder, better grades of steel screws are great, but the rest, not so much...
    I get your point - with that much grip, it's too easy to twist the head off of a bronze or ss screw. But I go a different way for a solution. I prefer to put my faith in properly sized pilot & shank-clearance holes... and a bit of lubrication - and stick with the Robertson or torx. Phillips - while admittedly less likely to snap a fastener, because they're more likely to cam out - are not completely reliable in that way. And in the softer metals... that camming out is also more likely to ruin the screw head.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  29. #64
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    I had square drive bronze screws for the coamings on the Triton. Because I preferred to dismount the coamings for refinishing rather than varnish-in-place, the square drives were fantastic. #1 they ALWAYS came out without stripping, and #2 the bit never jumped out of the head and marred the new varnish.
    No adversary is worse than bad advice.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by willmarsh3 View Post
    This is all very interesting and entertaining. I'll keep Robertson screw heads in mind for later.

    One lesson I learned recently is not to use philips head screws on something that is bunged. When I recently removed the old hand rails from my boat I found them to be all bunged philips head screws. Many of them were filled in with epoxy or glue making removal difficult. I often ended up cutting or breaking the hand rail on either side and twisting the wooden part that carried the screw loose. A few were slotted and so much easier to clean out to get a proper engagement with the screw driver.

    I ordered bronze flat head slotted bolts as a replacement.
    Old-school soldering iron with #2 Phillips tip attached. Place on screw, align tip with drive recess, press in firmly as epoxy heats up, et voila!

    That's the theory, anyway!


    Rattling the teacups.

  31. #66
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    That works. But heat the screw, not the screw driver. DAMHIKT.
    Will

  32. #67
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Figment View Post
    I had square drive bronze screws for the coamings on the Triton. Because I preferred to dismount the coamings for refinishing rather than varnish-in-place, the square drives were fantastic. #1 they ALWAYS came out without stripping, and #2 the bit never jumped out of the head and marred the new varnish.
    The concern about shearing off screwheads on softer metals is legitimate. Both inserting, and removing. In a situation like yours... the concern might be if there was adhesive involved in the installation, that got onto the fastener(s)... welding them on. Then... random numbers of screws would be not want to back out, and might snap. Never hurts to use the clutch on your cordless drill to identify such hiccups - and circle back around later with heat to loosen things up.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  33. #68
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I agree that the Robertson is superior. The bolded bit, however, goes too far. Way too far.

    I've trashed too many Phillips screws over the years. Installing them or removing them, hand-drive or power-drive, with or without a clutch, it makes no never mind.

    Using a quality driver helps... but even a good driver seems to get damaged over time due to cam-out.

    I do like slotted screws, though. The one big aesthetic failure of all hex-, cross-zero effect, Robertson and Torx screws is that clocking them makes no difference. They still look a bit ratty.
    You would not enjoy Nietzsche, sir. He is fundamentally unsound. — P.G. Wodehouse (Carry On, Jeeves)

  34. #69
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Using Phillips screws demands a sharp, quality bit or driver, it's the cheap and worn out ones that ruin your day. Stay Sharp is a good brand, they come in a ten pack, and they don't cost so much that won't throw it away when you should.
    Nosce te ipsum

  35. #70
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    Default Re: looking for a good screw

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicholas Carey View Post
    Phillips wasn't so much as designed to cam out as the cam-out was a design defect. Because of that they were a commercial failure. Until a smart marketing guy down in Portland bought the rights for a relative song and marketed the cam-out as a feature, not a bug.

    In the early days of power drivers in the auto industry and elsewhere, before they had come up with power drivers with clutches that slipped at a preset torque, broken screws were a huge problem.

    Phillips drive screws' cam-out at a relatively low torque made the use of power drivers on the assembly line feasible.

    Early Ford Model Ts were assembled with Robertson screws for that very reason. Henry Ford ditched them for Phillips because he wanted everything made in-house -- at the Rouge River plant, pretty much raw materials came in, iron ore, sand, etc., and automobiles rolled out.

    Robertson wouldn't license his patents to Ford: Rouge River couldn't make the screws, and so Phillips became entrenched here in the States.
    I'd heard they were designed to cam out, but I'm willing to learn. What's your source?

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