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Thread: Religion vs science

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    And the realm of 'faith' should hold very little sway in the realm of science.
    Ah, but here's another that has given me pause.

    Are not scientists seeking a cure for cancer or extra-terrestrial life working from faith? Neither example may exist, nor is there much proof that either exists, yet we (they) stay the quest. Goals of this nature seem as slippery as God to nail down and prove.

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  2. #72
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    Are not scientists seeking a cure for cancer or extra-terrestrial life working from faith?
    No, at least not in the sense the word is normally used about religion. Scientists are looking for something that would be interesting or useful if found. They hope they may find it, and judge that the odds are good enough to justify spending time looking. They aren't convinced they've found it already; that would require very good objective evidence.

    Religious 'faith' is almost always belief without sufficient evidence.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 07-11-2018 at 04:32 PM.
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  3. #73
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    No, at least not in the sense the word is normally used about religion. They're looking for something that would be interesting or useful if found. They hope they may find it, and judge that the odds are good enough to justify spending time looking. They aren't convinced they've found it already; that would require very good objective evidence.
    I thought that the definition was
    Religious 'faith' is belief without any evidence.
    Scientists generally understand that what they are striving for is possible based on the evidence to hand.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  4. #74
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Edited the original post to clarify a little.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Yes, if two men agree they believe in God, they tend to believe their beliefs are identical. Likely they are not.
    Uhmm, I've found the opposite. That folks who each genuinely believe in God strongly suspect that they diverge from each other in some aspects of their beliefs, experiences and practices. At least in the parts of the Church where I've hung about.
    If I use the word "God," I sure don't mean an old man in the sky who just loves the occasional goat sacrifice. - Anne Lamott

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Then comes the question: If we are on our own and his design is to never get involved, what is the point of prayer?
    Did anyone say 'his design is to never get involved'?? We don't know that he NEVER gets involved. We don't even know that he doesn't ALWAYS get involved... in his own way. In fact - we don't even know if those are relevant questions maybe.

    I'd suggest you simply accept that you don't grok, and don't want religion. For now. I don't understand nuclear physics - or even matrix algebra - but I'm ok with that. For now. But don't close the door totally. Plenty of evidence of folks having epiphanies - at various stages of life - and grasping the spiritual in new ways.
    David G
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  7. #77
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    I had 'an epiphany' David, whilst sailing alone. Perfectly clear, and perfectly secular.

    My opinion is that my mind had distilled 5 years of a business diploma/degree and given me the perfect précis. Useful too.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomF View Post
    Uhmm, I've found the opposite. That folks who each genuinely believe in God strongly suspect that they diverge from each other in some aspects of their beliefs, experiences and practices. At least in the parts of the Church where I've hung about.
    Yes, and isn't that how we learn? Faith is a slow process. We learn in bits and pieces, often through pain and failure. It's the diversity of thought that makes growth possible.

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    I had 'an epiphany' David, whilst sailing alone. Perfectly clear, and perfectly secular.

    My opinion is that my mind had distilled 5 years of a business diploma/degree and given me the perfect précis. Useful too.
    Me too. See my signature.

    I still find it rather startling to find myself - who my minister wife calls 'more of a Druid than anything... certainly than a Christian' - in the position of explaining/defending Christianity.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Me too. See my signature.

    I still find it rather startling to find myself - who my minister wife calls 'more of a Druid than anything... certainly than a Christian' - in the position of explaining/defending Christianity.
    May be you stand just far enough away from SWINBO to have a clear objective view of the topic.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  11. #81
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    I can defend religions on the basis that for a species whose rise has been defined by cooperation it has been, to say the least, useful.
    Corrupted interminably but still useful. Whether or not it has any basis in fact is irrelevant. If people believe then it has substance whether that belief is supportable by evidence or not.
    But not everyone needs it.

  12. #82
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    I still find it rather startling to find myself - who my minister wife calls 'more of a Druid than anything... certainly than a Christian' - in the position of explaining/defending Christianity.
    Likewise. Although I'm not a Druid, more an ornery agnostic with occasional transcendentalist spasms. Very weird, though.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  13. #83
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    May be you stand just far enough away from SWINBO to have a clear objective view of the topic.
    C'est possible.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  14. #84
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Did anyone say 'his design is to never get involved'?? We don't know that he NEVER gets involved. We don't even know that he doesn't ALWAYS get involved... in his own way. In fact - we don't even know if those are relevant questions maybe.

    I'd suggest you simply accept that you don't grok, and don't want religion. For now. I don't understand nuclear physics - or even matrix algebra - but I'm ok with that. For now. But don't close the door totally. Plenty of evidence of folks having epiphanies - at various stages of life - and grasping the spiritual in new ways.
    Not quite the same things.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  15. #85
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    Not quite the same things.
    You can quibble about the aptness of the analogy... but that's beside the point.

    Point being that none of us can understand everything... and it seems apparent to me that you can't, won't, or maybe just aren't ready to... understand religion. And that's ok. What's not ok is to formulate judgments based up that lack of understanding. Even less ok is to voice those conclusions so judgmentally in public.
    David G
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    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #86
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    What's not ok is to formulate judgments based up that lack of understanding. Even less ok is to voice those conclusions so judgmentally in public.
    I agree. I will point out that the John's judgements are reasonably accurate about some kinds of religion. But that's a little like claiming that all animals breathe water, and thus can't deal with non-aquatic environments..
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  17. #87
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You can quibble about the aptness of the analogy... but that's beside the point.

    Point being that none of us can understand everything... and it seems apparent to me that you can't, won't, or maybe just aren't ready to... understand religion. And that's ok. What's not ok is to formulate judgments based up that lack of understanding. Even less ok is to voice those conclusions so judgmentally in public.
    I accept there are many questions to which I have no answer. I do not accept that religions have the answer to those things.

    This thread has drifted. Often, during my life, I've seen religion, or religious beliefs, ignore, disagree with, disregard, etc. science. I cannot think of a single time when science was not proven correct.

    One very religious fellow INSISTED there is no evidence of evolution. I asked how mosquitoes became immune to DDT. That would be evidence that the insect can change over time.

    People who diss science seem to have no trouble using things science has brought us. Their homes are lit, heated, cooled by things science has given us.

    People are free to believe what they wish, and I have no problem if they live by their beliefs. Problem is they use religion to deny climate change and impact laws that all of us live under.
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

  18. #88
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post
    I accept there are many questions to which I have no answer. I do not accept that religions have the answer to those things.

    This thread has drifted. Often, during my life, I've seen religion, or religious beliefs, ignore, disagree with, disregard, etc. science. I cannot think of a single time when science was not proven correct.

    One very religious fellow INSISTED there is no evidence of evolution. I asked how mosquitoes became immune to DDT. That would be evidence that the insect can change over time.

    People who diss science seem to have no trouble using things science has brought us. Their homes are lit, heated, cooled by things science has given us.

    People are free to believe what they wish, and I have no problem if they live by their beliefs. Problem is they use religion to deny climate change and impact laws that all of us live under.
    That is not about religion, that is about idiots.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  19. #89
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    ^It does raise the chicken and egg issue; does religion cause people to choose to disbelieve science, or does it attract people who have chosen to disbelieve science.
    (acknowledging that most religious people are have undergone their indoctrination long before they are introduced to scientific method - but they do chose to stay there).
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
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  20. #90
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    ^It does raise the chicken and egg issue; do adherents to some wacko Christian sects choose to disbelieve science, or do they attract people who have chosen to disbelieve science.
    (acknowledging that most religious people are have undergone their indoctrination long before they are introduced to scientific method - but they do chose to stay there).
    It is not a feature of many religions.
    It will be indoctrination by their parents and their parents chosen preacher.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #91
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    You can quibble about the aptness of the analogy... but that's beside the point.

    Point being that none of us can understand everything... and it seems apparent to me that you can't, won't, or maybe just aren't ready to... understand religion. And that's ok. What's not ok is to formulate judgments based up that lack of understanding. Even less ok is to voice those conclusions so judgmentally in public.
    God of the gaps…………

  22. #92
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    God of the gaps…………
    Using gaps in our knowledge as evidence for one god or another is one of the things covered by David's "What's not ok is to formulate judgments based up that lack of understanding." Although he was talking of John's tendency to lump all varieties of religion together and imagine they're the same, it applies just as well to 'God of the gaps' silliness.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

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  23. #93
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    I agree. I will point out that the John's judgements are reasonably accurate about some kinds of religion. But that's a little like claiming that all animals breathe water, and thus can't deal with non-aquatic environments..
    Sure. But to a first-order approximation, all terrestrial animals can fly.

    What are you doing about it?




  24. #94
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    Sure. But to a first-order approximation, all terrestrial animals can fly.
    Eh? What about all those crawly things in the soil, much less ants? Isn't some alarmingly high percentage of terrestrial animal biomass made up of ants and termites? Nematodes, nematodes everywhere!

    To a first approximation, every living organism on earth is a bacterium.

    Seriously, though, fundamentalists are a minority even of Protestants.
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  25. #95
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Eh? What about all those crawly things in the soil, much less ants? Isn't some alarmingly high percentage of terrestrial animal biomass made up of ants and termites? Nematodes, nematodes everywhere!

    To a first approximation, every living organism on earth is a bacterium.

    Seriously, though, fundamentalists are a minority even of Protestants.
    I would have thought so too. I don't recall where I read the original observation, and it sounds a bit off to me, but it was too good to pass up.

    And yes, the batchet crazy fundies are a minority, of course... but the set of people who think revealed "knowledge" trumps science is not limited to batchet crazy fundies.

    What are you doing about it?




  26. #96
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Ants do fly


    They try it once and don't like it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  27. #97
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Termites, too. But I think Keith has a point re nematodes.

    What are you doing about it?




  28. #98
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Orca View Post
    But I think Keith has a point re nematodes.
    There are an amazing number of little wiggly things in the dirt. I remember the first time I found out about tardigrades, in high school - seriously weird little guys.

    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  29. #99
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Right up there with Demodex.

    What are you doing about it?




  30. #100
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    Default Re: Religion vs science

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    There are an amazing number of little wiggly things in the dirt. I remember the first time I found out about tardigrades, in high school - seriously weird little guys.

    Weird is subjective. Wonder what they think of us?
    How do we form a mutiny? Our new captain is navigating poorly.

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