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Thread: Pros/cons of all chain

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    I have only ever sailed with all chain, on other people's boats. For Kate I'd like to use 100' chain then nylon, but as I've never anchored with a combination rode I'm a little confused as to the procedure.

    To drop the hook, the chain comes up through the deck... So the nylon must also be, and permanently spliced on, correct? There's no way sensible to keep the nylon on deck, because attaching it as the bitter end comes up risks losing it all over the side.

    To bring the hook up, how does one transfer from gypsy (wildcat) to rope drum? My windlass has them on opposite sides, horizontally. It's stop hauling, put on a chain claw and transfer? I'd like to use Octo nylon as it could do well, but the downside is that it will not feed through my chain pipe from the windlass like 3 strand will.

    Anyone done this? I'd really like it all stowed below if possible.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I have only ever sailed with all chain, on other people's boats. For Kate I'd like to use 100' chain then nylon, but as I've never anchored with a combination rode I'm a little confused as to the procedure.

    To drop the hook, the chain comes up through the deck... So the nylon must also be, and permanently spliced on, correct? There's no way sensible to keep the nylon on deck, because attaching it as the bitter end comes up risks losing it all over the side.

    To bring the hook up, how does one transfer from gypsy (wildcat) to rope drum? My windlass has them on opposite sides, horizontally. It's stop hauling, put on a chain claw and transfer? I'd like to use Octo nylon as it could do well, but the downside is that it will not feed through my chain pipe from the windlass like 3 strand will.

    Anyone done this? I'd really like it all stowed below if possible.
    The rope rode normally stowed below, either faked down in the bottom of the locker, or occasionally wound onto a storage drum.
    Yes, you need a chain claw or some other holding mechanism. Not a bad idea anyway as it allows you to take the chain off of the gypsy at need.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I have only ever sailed with all chain, on other people's boats. For Kate I'd like to use 100' chain then nylon, but as I've never anchored with a combination rode I'm a little confused as to the procedure.

    To drop the hook, the chain comes up through the deck... So the nylon must also be, and permanently spliced on, correct? There's no way sensible to keep the nylon on deck, because attaching it as the bitter end comes up risks losing it all over the side.

    To bring the hook up, how does one transfer from gypsy (wildcat) to rope drum? My windlass has them on opposite sides, horizontally. It's stop hauling, put on a chain claw and transfer? I'd like to use Octo nylon as it could do well, but the downside is that it will not feed through my chain pipe from the windlass like 3 strand will.

    Anyone done this? I'd really like it all stowed below if possible.
    I haul the rope by hand, then put the chain on the windlass. The nylon is spliced to the chain. I also rarely feed everything straight into the locker as usually rinsing is needed first.

    @ Ron: Great news on the chain! Always a wonderful thing when you run into both a good price & good customer service.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    I haul the rope by hand, then put the chain on the windlass. The nylon is spliced to the chain. I also rarely feed everything straight into the locker as usually rinsing is needed first.

    @ Ron: Great news on the chain! Always a wonderful thing when you run into both a good price & good customer service.
    Rinsing on deck is a good shout as you will probably have to pull the rope down and fake it out into the locker from below. Once the chain starts to drop in gravity should do the rest.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  5. #40
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Rinsing on deck is a good shout as you will probably have to pull the rope down and fake it out into the locker from below. Once the chain starts to drop in gravity should do the rest.
    For me, it's close to the reverse. The line fakes fairly well, but the chain tends to create a lump & have to stop & spread it a bit before continuing. My locker is a little too far forward (or the hawse is too far aft) so the chain doesn't fall into the center. I could make it bigger, but that is a PITA place to work all scrunched up, so I just deal...

    I rinse for 3 reasons - to prolong chain & rode life and not get mud in the bilge, but even more to cut down on smell. 3 day old mud really stinks.
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by Garret View Post
    For me, it's close to the reverse. The line fakes fairly well, but the chain tends to create a lump & have to stop & spread it a bit before continuing. My locker is a little too far forward (or the hawse is too far aft) so the chain doesn't fall into the center. I could make it bigger, but that is a PITA place to work all scrunched up, so I just deal...

    I rinse for 3 reasons - to prolong chain & rode life and not get mud in the bilge, but even more to cut down on smell. 3 day old mud really stinks.
    Chain locker design is tricky. Ideally it should be a tall cylinder with an optimum diameter based on the diameter of the chain. The chain tends to spiral in and forms a cone which climbs the chain locker as it fills.
    Hard to do on a single decked yacht.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #42
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    I have a pretty good wash down pump and deck hose fitting so I rinse overboard as rode comes up. Luckily my locker is pretty deep so line falls first into deepest part, then chain on top. Once in a while I have to knock the top off the chain pyramid pile to close the locker hatch, which is a hinged forward section of the vee berth. Occasionally get a little mud on the toe of the bedding, but alas, that’s boating.

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    That is a great result. I was always concerned we were trimmed a bit bow down and a few years ago cut back our chain from 100 metres to 60 plus some (never used) rope tail. Then when the boat really was loaded up for a longer cruise she needed some bow trim so the 80 or 100 was/will be OK ( anchor locker is by the mast.)
    I take it you don't like the anchor buddy , Andrew? I have one but have seldom used it. The one I used a lot was back in Waione days and I made that from an old bronze fairlead . I spent a lot of time ensuring that there was no sharp corners for chafe.
    I do like it, very much indeed, but I have seen some awful designs. As Worth said way back in 1911, it is important that the chain slider should be fully semicircular in both axes.
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    I'd like to use Octo nylon as it could do well, but the downside is that it will not feed through my chain pipe from the windlass like 3 strand will.
    If by this you mean that an 8-plait rope won't feed up or down as well as 3-strand, my recent experience is just the opposite. I just changed from 3-strand to Yale's "Brait" plaited 8-strand. The Brait feeds 1000% better than the 3-strand, up or down --feeding it back down through the spurling pipe is like pouring water through a funnel!-- and I can stow 250' of 5/8" Brait in the same space as 150' of 9/16" 3-strand. Granted, I'm not using a windlass, but for moving rode around by hand, the stuff is infinitely easier and more pleasant than 3-strand.

    I have the zeal of the convert, with my new Brait rode, but even discounting that, I recommend it *highly* for ease of stowage, shock absorption, hand, and handling.

    Alex

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    If by this you mean that an 8-plait rope won't feed up or down as well as 3-strand, my recent experience is just the opposite. I just changed from 3-strand to Yale's "Brait" plaited 8-strand. The Brait feeds 1000% better than the 3-strand, up or down --feeding it back down through the spurling pipe is like pouring water through a funnel!-- and I can stow 250' of 5/8" Brait in the same space as 150' of 9/16" 3-strand. Granted, I'm not using a windlass, but for moving rode around by hand, the stuff is infinitely easier and more pleasant than 3-strand.

    I have the zeal of the convert, with my new Brait rode, but even discounting that, I recommend it *highly* for ease of stowage, shock absorption, hand, and handling.

    Alex
    Is this Brait stronger for the diameter? And will it work with a combination chain/rope wildcat?

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by ron ll View Post
    Is this Brait stronger for the diameter? And will it work with a combination chain/rope wildcat?
    Dunno about the strength, but the chain/rope splice is particularly neat, one of its main selling points.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    For those that can make it, a buying trip to Washington Chain is a neat experience. I've only gone there to purchase chain and fittings for my mooring, so I am decidedly in the small buyer category. Their usual customers are the really big steel boats. Nevertheless, everyone there I encountered was helpful and pleasant. They've treated me superbly each time I've visited.

    Just walking through the place is a treat. Huge chains, fittings, and associated gear. And yes, I said walking through. You are not left to wait at the counter. You get to wander the aisles with the sales/warehouse guy while getting your stuff. Simply amazing in this day and age.

    Jeff

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Is this Brait stronger for the diameter? And will it work with a combination chain/rope wildcat?
    My understanding is that it is, and it will. http://www.yalecordage.com/custom-an...lon-brait#data

    I bought mine here: https://www.fisheriessupply.com/yale...t-construction

    Alex

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    I’m gathering a bit more info as I go. So the chain I bought is 3/8” G43 HT imp. The HT is high tensile and the imp is imported as opposed to dom for domestic. This chain was $2.50/ft at Washington Chain Supply. I have no special discounts. The same chain at Fisheries with my pretty good discount was about $3.80. The same chain in domestic seems to run about $5.00/ft. Both domestic and imported are ISO rated at 5400 WLL (working load limit). The only difference I can seem to find is claims that the galvanizing is better on the domestic. If anyone can correct or add to any of this info, please do so.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Swivels.
    My old chain had a swivel at the anchor, so I got a new one for the new chain. But the 3/8” galvanized swivel is rated at 2000 lb WLL, thereby negating the HT strength of the chain. Fisheries sells a big fancy chrome swivel for $150 that’s almost as big as my anchor. Not doing that. So therein lies the next dilemma; sleep well with a weak swivel or hope the CQR sets well without a swivel.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    The Lewmar is nice and strong.

    Lewmar Anchor Swivel
    Applications: 3/8" to1/2" Chain, Anchor Shank Up to 1/2"
    Material: 316 Stainless Steel
    Working Load: 7000 lbs , Swivels 360 Degrees

    Clean Shape



    List Price: $116.00 Defender Marine Price: $83.99

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    That swivel looks nice, but my trinket budget is tapped out right now. I think I’ll try sans swivel for a bit and see how it works. I notice that even if the anchor comes up 180 out, it self corrects at the bow roller. But the swivel probably has more to do with setting correctly on the bottom.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    sleep well with a weak swivel or hope the CQR sets well without a swivel
    .

    Where the swivel really helps is in preventing the line ( rope) from twisting as you haul with the windlass, in my experience.

    The plaited rope referenced above, for all its other attributes, mightily resists twisting and hockling when used with a windlass.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    I found an oversized galv swivel with a WLL closer to that of the chain. It fits thru the bow roller fine and doesn’t have to go thru the deck hawse pipe.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    I don't think you need a swivel to set the anchor. The chain will take a twist or two if need be, and that will straighten out as you haul it in.

    I have the the same dilemma about converting from all chain to chain plus rope. I presently have all chain on an electric windlass. The chain comes up,and drops beautifully through the hawse pipe into the chain locker. But it's not as long as I'd like. So a while ago when 250 metres of 1 inch 3 strand came up at a clearance auction I grabbed it for $100. 250 metres of 1" 3 strand is a lot of stuff! I think I have space to stow it just aft of the anchor locker, but not sure how to manage the transition from chain to rope, or how to get it stowed down below as the winch hauls it in. Seems like it might be a 2 person job, one pressing the button, and one flaking the rope below as it feeds down the hawse pipe. And the transition from the chain part of the winch to the rope part will be a bit fraught. So at the moment, the lovely rope sits at home, still in its packaging. Won't do me any good in a hard chance there, I know.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    We always just carried the rope to chain on deck on our old classic , no windlass. Flaked the rope down on deck and piled the chain on top. If it got breezy I had ties to secure the chain or if I knew we had a hard passage we'd put it away through the hawse pipe. 25 years of yotting right there( roll eyes)
    Now we have a vertical windlass which feeds a vertical locker by the mast chainplates one side. Fantastic, eats 90 to 100M of chain.
    Its worth noting that if something is to go wrong with that type of windlass its at the chain to rope splice . Its a known well enough issue, the windlass I'd replace mine with , that manufacturer will not make a gypsy for rope to chain , its just for all chain... his reason being the problems that arise and the potential for complete failure.
    Its one of those areas that is all great until it isn't ,and when it isn't it becomes the sort of failure that ruins your month. DAMHIK.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    If by this you mean that an 8-plait rope won't feed up or down as well as 3-strand, my recent experience is just the opposite.

    Alex
    No, I meant that it won't feed horizontally as well as octoplait. One can push a foot or two of 3 strand along a deck, particularly when it has had some stretch taken out and hard use, but no chance with octo. My concern is when the rope part comes aboard, goes around the horizontal rope drum, then forward to the spurling pipe, although I suppose with the part below pulling it down through the spurling pipe it will be ok.

    Most data I have read says that Octo can be up to 10% weaker than like for like diameter 3 strand. That means it can have the same strength, but can also be UP TO 10% weaker...this is hopefully moot because one will have factored in generous SWL's.

    It can have about 10% less elasticity too.

    I have regularly dropped 200-300kg of wood 10-20 feet to a dead stop on 22mm 3 strand nylon when working in trees, it's basically a big elastic band. Christ alone knows the ultimate shock weight is of such an operation, but given the rope diameter appears to reduce to about 10mm at that point, and it makes a satisfying 'boing' sound, I'd say it's a lot. My bull ropes for trees have a breaking strain of around 9 tonnes if I remember correctly. I have also tied the tops of some whoppers to the back of a 4 wheel drive or tracked machine and driven away until it is bar taught, switche the vehicle off in gear, then gone back to the tree to make the back cut. Always a pleasure, and a useful way to fell directionally on your own. Don't try that with steel cable from a vehicle winch; bad things will happen. But I digress...

    I seem to remember a photo of a bow roller with a couple of water jets mounted on it for rinsing the rode as it came up to it, but alas cannot find it on the interwebs.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I seem to remember a photo of a bow roller with a couple of water jets mounted on it for rinsing the rode as it came up to it, but alas cannot find it on the interwebs.
    I like that idea.
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  24. #59
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Nearly all ships are fitted with permanent anchor wash piping, connected to the fire line. These days I am seeing it on more mostly larger motor yachts....

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    No, I meant that it won't feed horizontally as well as octoplait. One can push a foot or two of 3 strand along a deck, particularly when it has had some stretch taken out and hard use, but no chance with octo.
    Ah. Yes, you're absolutely right: brait *pushes* about as well as chain. I think what you suggest is likely, that the weight of the rode already hanging in the chain locker will pull the slack forward to the spurling pipe, but not knowing your exact set-up I can't say that with any certainty.

    My understanding from the Yale Rope website is that their brait is both stronger and more elastic (a good thing, in a rode, as I see it) than comparable diameter 3-strand. It also stows insanely well --both easily and tightly-- without any hockling. I wish I'd shifted to brait years ago.

    That said, a thread on anchors and rodes is nowhere to tell anyone they're doing it wrong. Glass houses and thrown stones and all...

    Alex

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    And amen to ACB's comment about a civil thread on anchors! I was holding my breath when I first posted, waiting for the explosions.
    Do people get uncivil about anchors? Really? I mean isn't that basically like getting grumpy about doorstops? Ok, doorstops that might need to keep you off a lee shore in a hurricane but still...

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Not here usually.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    We always just carried the rope to chain on deck on our old classic , no windlass. Flaked the rope down on deck and piled the chain on top. If it got breezy I had ties to secure the chain or if I knew we had a hard passage we'd put it away through the hawse pipe. 25 years of yotting right there( roll eyes)
    Now we have a vertical windlass which feeds a vertical locker by the mast chainplates one side. Fantastic, eats 90 to 100M of chain.
    Its worth noting that if something is to go wrong with that type of windlass its at the chain to rope splice . Its a known well enough issue, the windlass I'd replace mine with , that manufacturer will not make a gypsy for rope to chain , its just for all chain... his reason being the problems that arise and the potential for complete failure.
    Its one of those areas that is all great until it isn't ,and when it isn't it becomes the sort of failure that ruins your month. DAMHIK.
    John, do I understand that RIADA has her windlass and navel pipe level with the chainplates on one side?

    I have been playing around with that idea but gave it up, because I don’t like offset openings lest they be submerged.
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  29. #64
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Yes Andrew, Laurie Davidson boats often have the chain locker back just forward of the chainplates anyway and she still has that , but behind that they retrofitted a vertical box for the new vertical windlass. So all my chain is located port side by the mast . I just have to trim out other stuff to compensate, it can be a challenge sometimes but there are no deck piercings in the bow anyway.

    see the windlass?

    The old chain locker deck hatch is in front with backup

    down below the vertical locker has a couple of large inspection hatches but is sealed and needs draining from time to time.

    Not an issue locally but next offshore passage we make I'll fill the hawse pipe with expanding foam rather than just wedging up in closed cell foam blocking , seems like a good idea and is sacrificial enough.
    Last edited by John B; 07-11-2018 at 05:47 PM.

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Thanks, John. How far offset are the windlass and navel pipe - right by the shrouds? Do they ever find themselves under water?

    I do prefer having the chain locker and windlass away from the bow.
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  31. #66
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    There are 2 points missing from that article about the kellet/sentinel.

    The first is that the wind is rarely constant. It comes in gusts. In between the gusts, the weight takes the line down. Then when the gust comes, the weight comes back up, but the effect has been as a shock-absorber. That's the second point. It reduces the shock-loads on the anchor. Reduces the jerking.

    I use one often.

    And the third point is that it helps the skipper sleep at night.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    Thanks, John. How far offset are the windlass and navel pipe - right by the shrouds? Do they ever find themselves under water?

    I do prefer having the chain locker and windlass away from the bow.
    It does happen periodically when you put the bow under. Thats why at sea I think I could do a better job with bunging the pipe.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Now that the bow ground tackle is up to speed, I mounted 600’ of stern tie line. Ready for heading north.

    D3A5768B-577E-4EEE-A30C-DBC6EC200121.jpg

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Very nice! Any particular destination in mind?

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    Default Re: Pros/cons of all chain

    Quote Originally Posted by cstevens View Post
    Very nice! Any particular destination in mind?
    Nope. But I ain’t moving once I get there.

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