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Thread: Brits...brexit

  1. #106
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    The problem that remains for me is, finding a rationale for soft Brexit. Seems like advocates want a custom tailored membership, but what, why, and why would the EU agree? If every member is goint to have a particular form of membership, it doesn't add up to much of a union. Do you want a union or don't you? Would be my question.
    Yes, bad precedent and would quickly become unmanageable.
    The mythology that Peerie maa describes is responsible for muddying the waters. There is nothing material the British can do after Brexit that they couldn't do inside the Euro zone. but there's a lot they won't be able to do post-B.

    Looking forward to seeing Ireland united again.
    If only those scots prods would go home.
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  2. #107
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post

    Looking forward to seeing Ireland united again.
    If only those scots prods would go home.
    I would be happy to see that too. But I'm not sure many of your countrymen would agree. I don't think anyone wants to import that pesky lot. And, of course, neither the UK nor the Irish government lays claim to NI.

    Most of those Scots prod families have been there a long time, though. Much longer than most American families have been in America. And also a lot longer than many of the Catholics who moved north for work over the years to find work. The roots run very deep............
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  3. #108
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I just mean that resistance to aggression was reactive and ad hoc, each nation going it alone. A consensus was reached that it would be better to cooperate beforehand.
    I hardly thinks so. In both of the big ones there were treaties between nations that resulted in the UK going to the aid of our European neighbours when they were attacked.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Looking forward to seeing Ireland united again.
    If only those scots prods would go home.
    It's not often one sees bare faced advocacy for ethnic cleansing, but here we have it.

    Can't imagine any drawbacks?
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

  5. #110
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I hardly thinks so. In both of the big ones there were treaties between nations that resulted in the UK going to the aid of our European neighbours when they were attacked.
    Sure looked that way from here!

    I haven't been following anything to do with Brexit at all since that awful referendum but, of course, we hear snippets. This conditional/partial/whatever membership of EU (soft Brexit?), is it a wish for all the benefits but without the responsibilities or is that too cynical?

    Rick

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Yes, bad precedent and would quickly become unmanageable.
    The mythology that Peerie maa describes is responsible for muddying the waters. There is nothing material the British can do after Brexit that they couldn't do inside the Euro zone. but there's a lot they won't be able to do post-B.

    Looking forward to seeing Ireland united again.
    If only those scots prods would go home.
    Mythology? You are not asking right.

    Prods go home? They are home, they were born their, as where their parents and grand parents.

    Your post has no merit.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  7. #112
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Sure looked that way from here!

    I haven't been following anything to do with Brexit at all since that awful referendum but, of course, we hear snippets. This conditional/partial/whatever membership of EU (soft Brexit?), is it a wish for all the benefits but without the responsibilities or is that too cynical?

    Rick
    It is a fudge aimed at keeping the benefits whilst appeasing the Little Englanders on the Tory back benches.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  8. #113
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Two more resignations from the Conservative party.
    Now to see if Boris makes a bid for the top job…………….

  9. #114
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    Two more resignations from the Conservative party.
    Now to see if Boris makes a bid for the top job…………….
    Boris Johnson Has Ruined Britain

    “He knows that the verdict of history is about to come down on him — and bury him.”
    By Jenni Russell
    Ms. Russell is a British journalist.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/10/o...on-brexit.html
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  10. #115
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    The anglo-western world is not being well served by it's politicians, but then we are not voting well enough or protesting enough, being captured by our history and prejudice.
    I used to say half jokingly that we needed to throw out every rep. in every electorate for 3 elections in a row no matter who they were so as to break the party system. Somewhat overreached perhaps.

  11. #116
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Since I started this I’m entitled to chime in...pushy american. I’m learning a lot. It’s interesting how you interact without gratuitous trolling and petty wisecracking. The recent articles on Johnson were chilling. Tell me. Trump has hit upon a key concept in keeping while not expanding his base. The one thing that really fires up that gang is the concept of being a SUCKER. you paid too much for that car....sucker. Your son in laws mooching off you....sucker. NATO is ripping us off....sucker. Wasn’t that a dimension of the blitz of brexit campaigning? Or was the loss of autonomy under EU rules that was the big issue? Open borders. You guys should have a platform of your own.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    As a Remainer I cannot understand why leavers did vote to cut their noses off to spite their faces.
    I suspect that it was based on ignorance of the EU and the lies and propaganda of the daily Wail and leave campaigners.
    The only thing about the EU I would have changed was the Fisheries Policy, I would rather the Icelandic model.
    As to the rest, they were not unaccountable, all states elect MPs to the EU Parliament, all states have an input into any directives. Said directives are to our benefit, stuff like health and safety directives, The principles of free movement of labour, and regulations to make ordering produce easier ( remember the bollocks about straight cucumbers?) another lie by the daily Wail. And so on.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  13. #118
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Yes, bad precedent and would quickly become unmanageable.
    The mythology that Peerie maa describes is responsible for muddying the waters. There is nothing material the British can do after Brexit that they couldn't do inside the Euro zone. but there's a lot they won't be able to do post-B.

    Looking forward to seeing Ireland united again.
    If only those scots prods would go home.
    I don't get the Ireland part. What does it have to do with Brexit?
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    I hardly thinks so. In both of the big ones there were treaties between nations that resulted in the UK going to the aid of our European neighbours when they were attacked.
    Indeed, the treaties were insufficient. You need a high degree of prior coordination, from strategy to logistics. Just saying you're allies has a deterrent effect until your bluff is called.
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  15. #120
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I don't get the Ireland part. What does it have to do with Brexit?
    I'm heartily sick of all things Brexit - and of the dismal chaos that has ensued. The whole thing is pitiful. But - to respond to your question -

    The Ireland part is one of the keys. The Republic is part of the EU. This gives us a land border with the EU. In practice there really is no border and people work and trade between the Republic and NI seamlessly.

    So if we go ahead with this craziness, we have to find a way to maintain this complete integration or go back to border posts, customs posts etc. etc. etc. This would be extremely damaging locally not only to people's daily lives, local economies and trade, etc. but, quite possibly to the ongoing "peace process" itself as well as a great deal of international trade across this border.

    The unionists in NI will not countenance any special arrangements that would give NI a status different from the rest of the UK. And, of course, they have the whip hand as the stability of May's government depends on their co-operation. And the EU will not countenance a seamless land border with a non EU country.

    It's a mess.
    Last edited by downthecreek; 07-11-2018 at 11:23 AM.
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  16. #121
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Boater14 View Post
    Since I started this I’m entitled to chime in...pushy american. I’m learning a lot. It’s interesting how you interact without gratuitous trolling and petty wisecracking. The recent articles on Johnson were chilling. Tell me. Trump has hit upon a key concept in keeping while not expanding his base. The one thing that really fires up that gang is the concept of being a SUCKER. you paid too much for that car....sucker. Your son in laws mooching off you....sucker. NATO is ripping us off....sucker. Wasn’t that a dimension of the blitz of brexit campaigning? Or was the loss of autonomy under EU rules that was the big issue? Open borders. You guys should have a platform of your own.
    Not quite as you describe, but I think a great element in the disgracefully sloppy referendum (after a disgraceful campaign on both sides) was simple dissatisfaction with the government's failure to take note of the concerns of large parts of the population and with many specific issues that were really nothing to do with the EU. All kinds of myths abound - gleefully promulgated by the some of the most popular media, and genuine information about the EU, especially positive information, was hard to come by. Our cowardly politicians rarely stood up for the benefits of the EU, even though most MPs were remainers.

    People had both genuine and manufactured grievances, many nothing to do with the EU, and spat in the eye of an arrogant and incompetent government. I know many leavers resent the implication that they didn't know what they were doing. Rightly in many cases. But you wouldn't believe some of the reasons people give.
    "Mozart is the heart's touchstone" (Edwin Fischer)

  17. #122
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecreek View Post
    I'm heartily sick of all things Brexit - and of the dismal chaos that has ensued. The whole thing is pitiful. But - to respond to your question -

    The Ireland part is one of the keys. The Republic is part of the EU. This gives us a land border with the EU. In practice there really is no border and people work and trade between the Republic and NI seamlessly.

    So if we go ahead with this craziness, we have to find a way to maintain this complete integration or go back to border posts, customs posts etc. etc. etc. This would be extremely damaging locally not only to people's daily lives, local economies and trade, etc. but, quite possibly to the ongoing "peace process" itself as well as a great deal of international trade across this border.

    The unionists in NI will not countenance any special arrangements that would give NI a status different from the rest of the UK. And, of course, they have the whip hand as the stability of May's government depends on their co-operation. And the EU will not countenance a seamless land border with a non EU country.

    It's a mess.
    I see, thanks. I'm imagining lines of truckers on either side of the Irish border waiting in line to submit wads of new paperwork, and how happy everyone will be.

    Would you say that the position of Scotland, in the main, is the same as Northern Ireland's? Or perhaps more pertinently, do the soft Brexit people hope to make separate special arrangements in each case?

    Seems like they'll wind up longing for the simple days of the EU. Meanwhile, much fuel on the fires of separatism. But I don't see how Brexit makes the two islands, no matter how you divide them up, any stronger or more prosperous.
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  18. #123
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecreek View Post
    Not quite as you describe, but I think a great element in the disgracefully sloppy referendum (after a disgraceful campaign on both sides) was simple dissatisfaction with the government's failure to take note of the concerns of large parts of the population and with many specific issues that were really nothing to do with the EU. All kinds of myths abound - gleefully promulgated by the some of the most popular media, and genuine information about the EU, especially positive information, was hard to come by. Our cowardly politicians rarely stood up for the benefits of the EU, even though most MPs were remainers.

    People had both genuine and manufactured grievances, many nothing to do with the EU, and spat in the eye of an arrogant and incompetent government. I know many leavers resent the implication that they didn't know what they were doing. Rightly in many cases. But you wouldn't believe some of the reasons people give.
    Sums it up nicely.
    Roll on an indie Scotland in the EU!

  19. #124
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    I voted for Brexit.

    If the conservatives offer me such a poor deal on Brexit that i'm forced to vote to stay in the EU at a second referendum, I shall vote them out of office at the next election.

    But it won't get that far. There is no way the EU are going for this 'white paper'. Its an embarressment. It appears May had something drawn up by a junior civil servant behind Davis back (and the cabinet) in the last 7 days. Going to Merkle first, not giving cabinet time to digest this...indicates this party is incapable of co-ordinated governence. And I vote conservative usually. But could I vote for Corbyn? With a nose pin, if only to make a point to tory HQ. I have voted Labour before too.

    The EU are unusally quiet. Do they shoot this dead dog, and force trouble for May now or next month? Potentially a general election? Will UK then crash out or stay in? They don't know either. Its smiles for now, but staying half in the EU while not making payments etc...is cherrypicking. Its not even clear on the migration issue. Never mind financial services, ECJ? Fishing? This sets a bad precedent for them. I can only think, that they dont want to see a border in Ireland, and maybe a half out UK might one day come back in. Still this Political vomitus from a split conservative party is our problem whilst they continue the EU one nation crusade.

    It's clear the sticking point is the NI border. We would have to devolve NI off fully, or England evolve out of the UK, then implement Brexit whilst watching the mother of all holy wars restart for another 50-100 years. And nobody wants that. I woukd rather stay in the EU than see that restart.

    Theresa has gone for the vassal state option nobody wanted. An ideological shift has occured in the British populace but untill the next general election, does unfortunately not have representation in parliament. A remainer herself can't lead the country along the Brexit path. It transpires our MP's wont vote for brexit with 'no deal', but the EU aren't going to accept this weeks fudgecake. No matter what the ideological arguments to the shape of our country, it does appear that as things stand, the Brexit people voted for is politically undeliverable. If this does go through, the conservatives are going to pay at the next election, from conservative remainers and brexiteers protest voting to Labour.

    I reckon, we're only about half time on Brexit. If parliament can't resolve this, i'm seeing another referendum. Given the lack of confidence/ governence (in either side), I think it will tip to staying in the EU. The country needed ideological driven leadership but has been let down by pragmatic attempts to please everyone but pleases no one. We needed a Trump.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 07-12-2018 at 03:15 PM.

  20. #125
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    I voted for Brexit.

    If the conservatives offer me such a poor deal on Brexit that i'm forced to vote to stay in the EU at a second referendum, I shall vote them out of office at the next election.

    But it won't get that far. There is no way the EU are going for this 'white paper'. Its an embarressment. It appears May had something drawn up by a junior civil servant behind Davis back (and the cabinet) in the last 7 days. Going to Merkle first, not giving cabinet time to digest this...indicates this party is incapable of co-ordinated governence. And I vote conservative usually. But could I vote for Corbyn? With a nose pin, if only to make a point to tory HQ. I have voted Labour before too.

    The EU are unusally quiet. Do they shoot this dead dog, and force trouble for May now or next month? Potentially a general election? Will UK then crash out or stay in? They don't know either. Its smiles for now, but staying half in the EU while not making payments etc...is cherrypicking. It sets a bad precedent for them. I can only think, that they dont want to see a border in Ireland, and maybe a half out UK might one day come back in. Still this Political vomitus from a split conservative party is our problem whilst they continue the EU one nation crusade.

    It's clear the sticking point is the NI border. We would have to devolve NI off fully, or England evolve out of the UK, then implement Brexit whilst watching the mother of all holy wars restart for another 50-100 years. And nobody wants that. I woukd rather stay in the EU than see that restart.

    Theresa has gone for the vassal state option nobody wanted. An ideological shift has occured in the British populace but untill the next general election, does unfortunately not have representation in parliament. A remainer herself can't lead the country along the Brexit path. It transpires our MP's wont vote for brexit with 'no deal', but the EU aren't going to accept this weeks fudgecake. If this does go through, the conservatives are going to pay at the next election.

    I reckon, we're only about half time on Brexit. If parliament can't resolve this, i'm seeing another referendum. Given the lack of confidence/ governence (in either side), I think it will tip to staying in the EU. The country needed ideological driven leadership but has been let down by pragmatic attempts to please everyone but pleases no one. We needed a Trump.

    Like a hole in the head.

    I was agreeing with you till you trotted that out.
    P.S. Can't see your image.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  21. #126
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit


  22. #127
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    So...it appears British democratic independence is a hostage of Irish republicanism.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    That comes with being part of a "United Kingdom"......

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    So...it appears British democratic independence is a hostage of Irish republicanism.
    What a silly post.
    So when was our parliament stood down and replaced by EU bureaucrats.
    When did the MEP's, European Commissioners, the European Councillors, and the UK Permanent Representative to the EU lose their jobs?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    The EU are unusally quiet. Do they shoot this dead dog, and force trouble for May now or next month? Potentially a general election? Will UK then crash out or stay in? They don't know either.
    We should leave the EU because they meddle in our internal affairs, just look, they stand and watch and say nothing, refusing to meddle.

    ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    That comes with being part of a "United Kingdom"......
    Ian, the Republic of Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom since 1948. If it still was, this whole Brexit thing would be alot easier.

    The problem is a 'hard Brexit' with indpendent autonomy requires manned border for the EU irrespective of what we do on our side. We have suggested customs software, and we have already a free movement zone between the UK and Ireland, but the EU require 'a border' into 'the EU' otherwise it has to be a 'border in the Irish sea, which isn't acceptable to us or the Northern Irish.

    Its generally acknowledged that republican militants will not stand for any representation of 'a border' again on those roads and the border posts will be targeted, slipping the region back to violence. Their first love isn't the EU it's a future United Ireland. Thats the whole problem, otherwise we'd just have a border put up like every other country. Politically its a visually regressive step in a very sensitive long standing problem.

    The rest of it is just economic bargaining with the EU and passports. The soft Brexit is necessary for May to avoid a hard border - goods and agricultural products can move accross that border, and people with some as yet undescribed system. This is all for the Irish border problem, not Airbus. These consessions require the 'common rule book' etc which means we take rules and aren't independent, neither have we a hard border to migration. The common rule book also gives our current manufacturing quicker cheaper exports to the EU, but its about those milk tankers crossing the border that its a solution for.

    My point is correct. We cant have full autonomy, a hard Brexit, because it requires a hard border on the Irish side. We can choose to leave it unmanned and have no tariffs but the EU wont. So we have a choice hard Brexit, full autonomy and accept a resurgence of Irish republican nationalism, or a soft Brexit where we are still under the thumb of the EU.

    My point stands.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 07-12-2018 at 05:06 PM.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    or a soft Brexit where we are still under the thumb of the EU.

    My point stands.
    We are not "under the thumb" of the EU now. We are a full partner in the decision making process.
    However what May is suggesting does remove that and put us under their thumb for the future.

    The Irish border issue indicates just how stupid Cameron was when he decided to call the Little Englanders bluff to shut them up.
    Also shows up the blinkered stupidity of the leaders of the leave campaigns on top of their lying dishonesty.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    We are not "under the thumb" of the EU now. We are a full partner in the decision making process.
    However what May is suggesting does remove that and put us under their thumb for the future.

    The Irish border issue indicates just how stupid Cameron was when he decided to call the Little Englanders bluff to shut them up.
    Also shows up the blinkered stupidity of the leaders of the leave campaigns on top of their lying dishonesty.
    That's also how it looks from here.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Donald Trump has said the UK will "probably not" get a trade deal with the US, if the prime minister's Brexit plan goes ahead.
    He told The Sun the PM's plan would "probably kill the deal" as it would mean the US "would be dealing with the European Union" instead of with the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44815558
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    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    Donald Trump has said the UK will "probably not" get a trade deal with the US, if the prime minister's Brexit plan goes ahead.
    He told The Sun the PM's plan would "probably kill the deal" as it would mean the US "would be dealing with the European Union" instead of with the UK.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44815558
    That is much more interesting than Trump intended it to be.

    It shows Trump lining up with Farage, Rees-Smaug and their hanger-on, Johnson.

    There IS something nasty in the woodshed, here!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    That is much more interesting than Trump intended it to be.

    It shows Trump lining up with Farage, Rees-Smaug and their hanger-on, Johnson.

    There IS something nasty in the woodshed, here!
    Trump is a bit rubbish at keeping his cards close to his chest isn't he?. I believe he really wants a hard Brexit to drive a wedge firmly between the UK and Europe.
    Somewhere between Murder and Suicide, there is a place called Merseyside.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    so no more Schengen, EU employment and property ownership with cheap holidays on the continong?

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    The employment one is interesting. Free movement to work anywhere in Australia would have been welcomed, but they guy working in Tasmania would just shrug his shoulders. It takes half a day to drive and fly/ ferry off our island, so the shengen advantages for work don't work for us mostly. On the other hand if you lost you job at Peugeot you might be able to get one at Fiat and still commute without moving your family, so it works better for them. Most EU populations are somewhat split on the EU federalism quetion, just we had a referendum. I think Most EU countries are split about 60:40 in favour of the EU, but they dare not ask them - otherwise the weels will come off the project before its too late to turn around. There is no democratic mandate to form an EU state. Thats the elephant in the room. Neither are the current representatives elected by the people or removeable by the people. Its more like FIFA.

  34. #139
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Maybe a new coalition could be formed by centre-right and centre-left MPs from both Tories and Labour?
    Kill the whole thing off with another referendum and rescind the article 44 trigger? Reset and go back to their constituent sides of politics afterwards?

    Surely the stakes for the country are way above party politics, and I would assume the overwhelming majority of MPs are remainers?
    Anyone in the Olde Country want to comment on this idea? I'm sure it's been thought about by others if a bloke in sub-tropical New South Wales can come up with the idea...

    And Edward, stop spouting such utter rot. Think prior to engaging the keyboard. Only insane people "Need a Trump"; total rubbish, along with the other no-conundrums you posed.
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  35. #140
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    It takes half a day to drive and fly/ ferry off our island, so the shengen advantages for work don't work for us mostly.
    dear lord you are nuts. BTW: It's Schengen.

    trump's a senile attention whore who thrives on Chaos and has no more attachment to any word he says than a greyhound at the track to the mechanical rabbit.

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