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Thread: Brits...brexit

  1. #141
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Yep on both counts. BTW the UK middle monied class are carping themselves about the need to divest themselves of EU properties once Brexit evolves.. No more playing the arriviste county squire. They will and have been done like a dinner. I saw much evidence of it in rural parts of several EU nations. Lingering resentment of proto colonialism does not go down well!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh Conway View Post
    dear lord you are nuts. BTW: It's Schengen.

    trump's a senile attention whore who thrives on Chaos and has no more attachment to any word he says than a greyhound at the track to the mechanical rabbit.
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  2. #142
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    It's not often one sees bare faced advocacy for ethnic cleansing, but here we have it.

    Can't imagine any drawbacks?
    Ethnic cleansing (!), rigthy - twist it in there if you must. The forum format is a servant of hyperbole.

    Clearly even tongue in cheek suggestions that the British Empire is dead, gone and was always unwelcome, continues to bite in some quarters. Maybe its only the younger generations who have risen above the partisanship and smile at anachronistic ribbings for what they are.
    And said Scots certainly do not consider themselves Irish, they are indubitably part of the British Empire. Just ask them. So i wonder who is actually trying to cleanse where?

    Its worth a mention that the only people who have in practice attempted ethnic cleansing in the north are said Scots.

    I'll shall bite no deeper. You guys keep enjoying your empire as it shrinks around your ankles. If the DUP agree that is.

    adh mor
    Philip K. Dick — 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

  3. #143
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    I believe he really wants a hard Brexit to drive a wedge firmly between the UK and Europe.
    But WHY?
    Philip K. Dick — 'Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away'.

  4. #144
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    On those observations I saw evidences of Inglese assumed colonial indulgences ; however the locals have ways and means. Convoys of GB yellow plaqued
    vehicles curbed en masse for vehicle compliance, the Swiss customs being quite pointed in their process. Heh, heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by purri View Post
    Yep on both counts. BTW the UK middle monied class are carping themselves about the need to divest themselves of EU properties once Brexit evolves.. No more playing the arriviste county squire. They will and have been done like a dinner. I saw much evidence of it in rural parts of several EU nations. Lingering resentment of proto colonialism does not go down well!
    Xanthorrea

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    But WHY?


    To weaken Europe.

    Russia views the west as a potential enemy (not without good historical reason), The USA views us as an economic competitor, a smaller weaked and disunited Europe is to be preferred by both.
    Creationists aren't mad - they're possessed of demons.

  6. #146
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Yep. But the players in the Great Game have much expertise. The US has no idea of the trading relationships, economic partnerships and especially the economic capacity of the EU. I sense elements of the "Project for the New American Century" in the Trump assumption of hegemony. A dual hegemony of US and Rus will not succeed. EOS. Asia and multi lateral partners will succeed in the mid to long term. US and Rus are fighting a lost cause.
    Xanthorrea

  7. #147
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by purri View Post
    . US and Rus are fighting a lost cause.
    I think its just the US fighting a lost cause. Many do not seem to be aware of the buisness transactions and agreements made in the East with China, India and across Asia. Sanctions on the Russian Federation only helped force it to branch out and become a trading partners to many more countries and with a wider choice of goods than previously. US seems to be struggling to find another scapegoat to blame that on, rather just admit that their foriegn interventions backfire.

  8. #148
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Ian, the Republic of Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom since 1948. If it still was, this whole Brexit thing would be alot easier.

    The problem is a 'hard Brexit' with indpendent autonomy requires manned border for the EU irrespective of what we do on our side. We have suggested customs software, and we have already a free movement zone between the UK and Ireland, but the EU require 'a border' into 'the EU' otherwise it has to be a 'border in the Irish sea, which isn't acceptable to us or the Northern Irish.

    Its generally acknowledged that republican militants will not stand for any representation of 'a border' again on those roads and the border posts will be targeted, slipping the region back to violence. Their first love isn't the EU it's a future United Ireland. Thats the whole problem, otherwise we'd just have a border put up like every other country. Politically its a visually regressive step in a very sensitive long standing problem.

    The rest of it is just economic bargaining with the EU and passports. The soft Brexit is necessary for May to avoid a hard border - goods and agricultural products can move accross that border, and people with some as yet undescribed system. This is all for the Irish border problem, not Airbus. These consessions require the 'common rule book' etc which means we take rules and aren't independent, neither have we a hard border to migration. The common rule book also gives our current manufacturing quicker cheaper exports to the EU, but its about those milk tankers crossing the border that its a solution for.

    My point is correct. We cant have full autonomy, a hard Brexit, because it requires a hard border on the Irish side. We can choose to leave it unmanned and have no tariffs but the EU wont. So we have a choice hard Brexit, full autonomy and accept a resurgence of Irish republican nationalism, or a soft Brexit where we are still under the thumb of the EU.

    My point stands.
    Republicans have been in a power sharing government since 2007. Almost everyone "over there" is Irish, so easy to mistake your Irish republicans to those Irish/UK republicans. Partition in 1921 coming back to haunt....

  9. #149
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    But WHY?
    Because Putin wants him to.
    Don't worry I'm happy

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  10. #150
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Ahh Mamma Africa. China ha been working away behind the scenes for a long time. Funny how the most mineral rich continent has the poorest people. Africa has been used and abused by others and its own since the dawn of time, and will continue to be, until all resources are exhausted. Latest reports say 75% of the gold mines are no longer profitable, understandable given golds artificially low price.

  11. #151
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Maybe a new coalition could be formed by centre-right and centre-left MPs from both Tories and Labour?
    Kill the whole thing off with another referendum and rescind the article 44 trigger? Reset and go back to their constituent sides of politics afterwards?

    Surely the stakes for the country are way above party politics, and I would assume the overwhelming majority of MPs are remainers?
    No-one???
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  12. #152
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by gypsie View Post
    Its worth a mention that the only people who have in practice attempted ethnic cleansing in the north are said Scots.
    ?

    Andy, non-ethnically-cleansed Northern Englishman living in Scotland since 1993.
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

  13. #153
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    No-one???
    It might happen without any formal or "public" creation of a coalition. ACB did refer to the idea of a new centre party in a speculative comment.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  14. #154
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by AndyG View Post
    ?

    Andy, non-ethnically-cleansed Northern Englishman living in Scotland since 1993.
    May be referring to the Scottish lairds replacing crofters with sheep.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  15. #155
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    No-one???
    I'll bite, Duncan.

    The whole Brexit-slo-mo bulldozer now has a momentum which is impossible, short of a complete collapse of the Tory party caused by in-fighting and division, to stop. Many Labour MPs hold majority-Leave seats, and daren't speak out. It's an omnishambles beyond coherent solution.

    Andy
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  16. #156
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    May be referring to the Scottish lairds replacing crofters with sheep.
    Or possibly the unionists in NI and the discrimination practiced against catholics, which was at the root of the "troubles" (there's an understatement) that started in the sixties. That was when said catholics were cheering the British troops on the streets of Belfast. But that was not ethnic cleansing. Just vicious injustice. A lot of catholics migrated north for work and because of the greater prosperity of NI and there were a great many catholic unionists in those days, before the Republic became more prosperous and less priest ridden. (Lots of possible refs but the historian Padraig O'Malley's book "the Uncivil Wars" is a good place to start.)

    I have spent long periods working in NI (a place I like very much) and I can assure gypsie that the NI protestants don't consider themselves as Scots. They are as Irish the next person. Just protestant Irish and part of the UK. There was constant movement between Scotland and Ireland long before the atrocities of Cromwell etc. They are as Irish as most Australians and Americans are Australian or American and possibly more so, if length of established residence has anything to do with it. But I don't blame the citizens of the Republic and, probably, the government, of feeling very unenthusiastic about having the diehard community of unionists into the fold.......

    All this rubbish about the empire etc. is silly and childish. For gypsie, who always strikes me as a sensible sort of bloke, uncharacteristically so.
    "Mozart is the heart's touchstone" (Edwin Fischer)

  17. #157
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    And now we have the demented orange bull charging about in our sad ruin of a china shop.....

    AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "Mozart is the heart's touchstone" (Edwin Fischer)

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecreek View Post
    All this rubbish about the empire etc. is silly and childish.
    Those ghostly sounds you can hear tapping in the aether from an alternative dimension are Bobbbys, on cue, banging on about the Falkands...

    Andy
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecreek View Post
    Or possibly the unionists in NI and the discrimination practiced against catholics, which was at the root of the "troubles" (there's an understatement) that started in the sixties.
    Well, if he thinks that is ethnic cleansing he needs to buy a better dictionary.
    If he had referred to the treatment of blacks in southern US states he would have been closer to the mark.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  20. #160
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by downthecreek View Post
    And now we have the demented orange bull charging about in our sad ruin of a china shop.....

    AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Fortunately, only for a couple of days. But long enough for me to hear Rees-Smaug descanting on R4 about why it is unacceptable for President Obama to comment on Brexit but fine for President Trump to do so.
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    From here it looks like Donald is making a fool of himself, and his pseudo party. Hopefully the US will survive him.
    But if he is re-elected, I reckon all bets are off.

  22. #162
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Chaps the Theresa's Chequers White Paper Fudge Cake:-


    https://assets.publishing.service.go...EB_VERSION.pdf



    There is surprisingly large amounts of political waffle, but some facts to sort through.

    (Financial) Services will be autonomous without full access to each others markets. Thats our biggest export earner to the EU. I guess they feel there are bigger opportunities outside the EU regulatory framework and that the EU will have to come to the London Financial market whatever on most things. They say autonomous a few times.

    The common rule book extends to state aid. So our governement won't be able to step in fiscally to nurture or protect an industry.

    On food and agricultural products the 'common rule book' means we won't import anything that doesn't meet EU criteria to avoid them ending up in the EU circulation. This is why Trump said a trade deal is unlikely. There will be no American steak or chicken etc due to lower perceived standards. This would restrict us to importing what is already imported into the EU but without tariffs which might reduce the costs of some things. What is declared that will later leave for the EU gets an EU tariff on entry and we pay that to the EU. This opens a big door for smuggling though into the EU. The UK talks about trusted traders and non trusted traders and EU and UK deciding what will stayin the respective markets. For a market the size of the EU I can't see that as workable for them accross the enormity of the EU border.

    As far as the EU are concerned I think the wheels fall off around page 17 with this tariff issue.

    On fish, the EU will be allowed into UK waters deceided on an annual basis, and fish will be part of the customs free trade area.

    On ending of freedom of movement, it describes what we want but doesn't describe how we will do it. Zero. Nothing.

    Promises that there will be no regression on employment law or the environment. Recognition of professional qualifications.

    The governement doesn't know if we can still be in the Internal Energy market or not. We seem to be asking them?

    A joint comittee will arbitrate between UK and ECJ.


    Barnier is going to need a lie down. Trump just gave May a wobble, the're going to have to give her a few weeks before saying anything...accepting this (half baked fudge cake I can't see it....commensurate with a drop in funding that is occuring..sets a bad precedent.

    There going to say no. Might be an election soon. Parliament won't pass the hard Brexit fall out button...require a new referundum. May be a hard Brexit or stay in. Its clear a hard brexit is polically undeliverable (NI) a soft Brexit is undeliverble (EU) without considerable EU pity.

    I think this may end up with stayin in, unless we chance the effect of an Irish border. We've had the economic effects, would people vote more out or more in? That wouldn't be entirely clear. My guess it would be stay in. Leaving is currently undeliverable.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 07-13-2018 at 07:50 AM.

  23. #163
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post
    Leaving is currently undeliverable.
    Leaving was always undeliverable.

    To analogise: Driving one's car off a cliff with a bunch of unwilling passengers in the back seat has consequences; it's just that you haven't hit the ground at the bottom yet and are still in free-fall.

    If the UK leaves with no deal and the many thousands of pieces of legislation and regulation in place, which appears increasingly probable if there isn't any internal agreement on what kind of deal your country wants, then what? Roundheads vs Parliamentarians MkII?
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  24. #164
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Edward Pearson View Post

    (Financial) Services will be autonomous without full access to each others markets. Thats our biggest export earner to the EU. I guess they feel there are bigger opportunities outside the EU regulatory framework and that the EU will have to come to the London Financial market whatever on most things. They say autonomous a few times.
    Will they? There is already talk of the finance industry leaving the City for Europe. What is to keep them in the City?
    The common rule book extends to state aid. So our government won't be able to step in fiscally to nurture or protect an industry.
    No change there then, the Tories were always non interventionist, except when they shut industries down. Labour possibly, in the past, but now? Maybe.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    Roundheads vs Parliamentarians MkII?
    Nah...how about we contribute, trade and obey EU regulations from Sunday to Wednesday midday, then just shut shop for the rest of the week, looking for any international friends?!

    Andy
    "We were schooner-rigged and rakish, with a long and lissome hull ..."

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Will they? There is already talk of the finance industry leaving the City for Europe. What is to keep them in the City?
    Quite so..

    Hypocricy anybody?

    Prominent Brexiteer Jacob Rees-Mogg has defended the move by a City firm that he helped to found to establish an investment fund in Ireland ahead of the UK leaving the European Union.
    The Conservative MP faced questions when it emerged that Somerset Capital Management (SCM) had launched a new investment vehicle in Dublin amid concerns about being cut off from European investors.
    A prospectus for the new business, which was registered in March and will be governed by EU and Irish rules, listed Brexit as one of the risks, as it could cause “considerable uncertainty”.
    The disclosure is potentially embarrassing for Mr Rees-Mogg, who has been one of the most vocal advocates of a clean break from the EU through his role as chairman of the European Research Group (ERG), a powerful Eurosceptic group of backbench Tories.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8398041.html
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post
    To weaken Europe.

    Russia views the west as a potential enemy (not without good historical reason), The USA views us as an economic competitor, a smaller weaked and disunited Europe is to be preferred by both.
    Nations cannot be other than economic competitors, but it does not follow that every nation wants every other to be weak and disunited, because there's much more to the relationship than economic competition. Even within the realm of economics, others have to have money to buy your stuff.

    Nobody in America with a lick of sense wants the UK or Europe to be weak and disunited. Trump is a dope. The demise of the Soviet Union wasn't a victory, it was a "generally favorable development", and it sure doesn't make NATO obsolete, as he claims. The "war" is not "over". There are still Russia, China, Islamic fundamentalism, drug traffickers, money launderers. Russia is expanding westward into the Ukraine, southward into the Caucasus. China is expanding westward into central Asia.
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  28. #168
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Can it be that Trump may be delivering a poltical reversal on Brexit this week?
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Hoppe View Post
    Can it be that Trump may be delivering a poltical reversal on Brexit this week?
    That would be amusing. We're leaving the EU because we don't want other countries deciding our future (allegedly)
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by purri View Post
    Yep on both counts. BTW the UK middle monied class are carping themselves about the need to divest themselves of EU properties once Brexit evolves.. No more playing the arriviste county squire. They will and have been done like a dinner. I saw much evidence of it in rural parts of several EU nations. Lingering resentment of proto colonialism does not go down well!
    The property specialists are reporting that the reverse is true.People are looking to buy in the EU in order to maintain their rights as EU citizens as ownership of property in the area is sufficient to grant those rights.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Watching the May and Trump press conference was like watching someone bringing their uncle with dementia to a dinner party. I was expecting Trump to pat May on the head at one point. I was hoping he would so that we'd see her flatten him or at least knee him in the groin. She must have come awfully close to it anyway.

    The Americans ought to see if they can buy that blimp and discreetly slip it into the Whitehouse. No one would be able to tell the difference at first and it might do less harm. The original could be easily deflated, packed and shipped to Africa for recycling.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Watching the May and Trump press conference was like watching someone bringing their uncle with dementia to a dinner party. I was expecting Trump to pat May on the head at one point. I was hoping he would so that we'd see her flatten him or at least knee him in the groin. She must have come awfully close to it anyway.

    The Americans ought to see if they can buy that blimp and discreetly slip it into the Whitehouse. No one would be able to tell the difference at first and it might do less harm. The original could be easily deflated, packed and shipped to Africa for recycling.

    Rick
    Do that thing where you undo the knot at the bottom and stretch the neck. One that big could make some awesome fart sounds.
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Do that thing where you undo the knot at the bottom and stretch the neck. One that big could make some awesome fart sounds.
    Both versions would.
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Both versions would.
    One is harmless and fun, the other is Donald Trump.

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    ycmtsu
    donald trump told theresa may she should "sue" the eu rather than negotiate, she has told the bbc.
    The us president said on friday at a joint press conference that he had given her a suggestion but she had found it too "brutal".
    Asked by the bbc's andrew marr what it was he had said, she replied: "he told me i should sue the eu - not go into negotiations."
    she defended her blueprint for brexit and urged her critics to back it.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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