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Thread: Brits...brexit

  1. #36
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Tell that to Switzerland..
    That's rather simplistic and glib don't you think?
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    I have brought up the issue of former Yugoslavia numerous times. It didn't stop 100,000 people from genocide Duncan.

    STOP your internal dialogue about them not being 'in the EU' at the time. 100,000 people died just South of Germany not 50 years after WWII.



    Edit. I just looked it up, it was a little over 133,000.

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    That's rather simplistic and glib don't you think?
    Yes, and for that I apologise, but it doesn't change the fact that an independent nation smack in the centre of Europe has been doing very nicely all on their own.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    I have brought up the issue of former Yugoslavia numerous times. It didn't stop 100,000 people from genocide Duncan.

    STOP your internal dialogue about them not being 'in the EU' at the time. 100,000 people died just South of Germany not 50 years after WWII.



    Edit. I just looked it up, it was a little over 133,000.
    What has that got to do with the price of fish and chips in China? Two of the ex-Yugoslav states are now in the EU and NATO. Shouldn't that tell you something important?

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  5. #40
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Yes, and for that I apologise, but it doesn't change the fact that an independent nation smack in the centre of Europe has been doing very nicely all on their own.
    Small target of no actual strategic importance, that only granted women universal suffrage as late as 1990 in all cantons, and federally in 1971, with a convenient banking system for the Hapsbergs and then the Nazis more like it, among a variety of other factors.

    Try again.
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Duncan, I posted about Yugoslavia because people always trot out this 'The EU saved us from killing each other' BS a lot. It clearly didn't.


    My point about Switzerland doing ok, Nazi gold or not, while not in the EU is not exclusive to them...

    Here's a list of European countries not in the EU, not that you need it. Not included is Vatican City, because seriously, who cares?

    Albania
    Armenia
    Belarus
    Gibraltar,
    Iceland,
    Kosovo,
    Lechtenstein,
    Macedonia,
    Norway,
    Russian Federation,
    Switzerland,
    Turkey,
    Ukraine.

    Christ, is it so hard to have a balanced objective point of view here?

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    The Yugoslavian states were not in the EU. They had a series of wars whilst the rest of Europe that was in the EU has not. QED. Aside from proving my point about being in the EU providing stability and not being in the EU not having that stability, I’m not sure what your arcane point actually is. The only prosperous nations on your list are still very much tied to to the single market and are part of the acquis communautaire of the EU. The ones on your list that aren’t doing so well are not tied to the single market and have pretty dodgy governments, again proving my point. So what actually is your point?
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Duncan, I posted about Yugoslavia because people always trot out this 'The EU saved us from killing each other' BS a lot. It clearly didn't.


    My point about Switzerland doing ok, Nazi gold or not, while not in the EU is not exclusive to them...

    Here's a list of European countries not in the EU, not that you need it. Not included is Vatican City, because seriously, who cares?

    Albania
    Armenia
    Belarus
    Gibraltar,
    Iceland,
    Kosovo,
    Lechtenstein,
    Macedonia,
    Norway,
    Russian Federation,
    Switzerland,
    Turkey,
    Ukraine.

    Christ, is it so hard to have a balanced objective point of view here?
    Well, it would be nice if you were to proffer one.

    The WHOLE POINT is that, given the appaling risks that we all face, and which you have correctly enumerated, the choice is between being IN an organisation which MIGHT fail, and being outside it but not in any other one.

    The precautionary principle tells us that we are better off IN, because if it does fail we end up OUT. So why throw the only deal in town under the bus?
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  9. #44
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Switzerland is to the South of Europe as Singapore is to ASEAN. It's small, physically clean, as stable as may be, with a good legal and accounting system, and thus very handy for doing things that you don't want your own Government to know about.

    I am the happy owner of a Swiss made deck watch made for use aboard submarines in WW2. Mine was supplied to the Royal Navy; I have a friend with the identical - not similar, identical - watch with a Kriegsmarine logo in place of the broad arrow. The makers are very much in business now at the top end of the silly wristwatch market. So much for Switzerland.
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  10. #45
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    NATO and the EU are part of a strategic regime that came into existence for compelling reasons. When did these reasons go away?
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  11. #46
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    NATO and the EU are part of a strategic regime that came into existence for compelling reasons. When did these reasons go away?
    When Vlad Putin bought a few people...
    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    NATO and the EU are part of a strategic regime that came into existence for compelling reasons. When did these reasons go away?
    When it was clear that trade was a better thing than constant fighting, or threatening to fight. The EU faces more danger from itself than from any outside threat, despite what some might think, some people are stuck in a mindset that the next generation have no time for, and wish to move on from.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    When it was clear that trade was a better thing than constant fighting, or threatening to fight. The EU faces more danger from itself than from any outside threat, despite what some might think, some people are stuck in a mindset that the next generation have no time for, and wish to move on from.
    in Britain, the young and the very old (old enough to remember WW2) are mostly pro-Remain. The fiftysomethings tend to be the Quitlings.
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  14. #49
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Photo just released from Chequers, the Prime Minister's country house, where the Cabinet is meeting to decide on What to Do...

    IMAGINES VEL NON FUERINT

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    The EU has provided the single longest period of peace of prosperity in European history. The idea you guys should p!ss it all up against the wall because of single issue idiots is simply confounding to this antipodean.
    Indeed so. The whole history of Europe, up to the end of the Second World War, was of unremitting strife for centuries upon centuries upon centuries upon centuries... well, you get the idea. Thirty Year's War. Hundred Years War. Ad infinitum. That the post WWII world order finally brought peace to Europe for 70 years ( Germany and France- friends! Who woulda thunk it!) is no mean thing.

    That our current president is blithe to it is very sobering and frightening. The international scene needs some giants, and alas other than Merkel we got nuthin'.
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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by lupussonic View Post
    Yes, and for that I apologise, but it doesn't change the fact that an independent nation smack in the centre of Europe has been doing very nicely all on their own.
    "... on their own" – not without some closeness towards the EU.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switze...nion_relations

    https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/
    Gruß, Günter

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Craig-Bennett View Post
    When Vlad Putin bought a few people...
    Wow, man. Just like that ?!?
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  18. #53
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    When it was clear that trade was a better thing than constant fighting, or threatening to fight. The EU faces more danger from itself than from any outside threat, despite what some might think, some people are stuck in a mindset that the next generation have no time for, and wish to move on from.
    I've heard of false dichotomy, this seems to verge on absurd dichotomy. Is that moving on?

    The next generation better F ing find time to think twice before "moving on" toward they know not what. After all, they're young, right? As in, plenty of time?
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  19. #54
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit




    Yay! Result!

    Remember, there are only three Brexits - Disastrous Brexit, Pointless Brexit and No Brexit:

    The Chequers meeting is over, the "extreme Quitlings" have all surrendered without a fight - nary a resignation- and Thereas May gets "Pointless Brexit".

    Which will be unacceptable to the EU, as it is cherry picking the Single Market, so an Extended Transition Period will be needed, and that gives right minded people enough time to kill the whole project.

    Result! I'll have another!
    Last edited by Andrew Craig-Bennett; 07-06-2018 at 03:52 PM.
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  20. #55
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Here's hoping Andrew!
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Here's hoping Andrew!
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  22. #57
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    When it was clear that trade was a better thing than constant fighting, or threatening to fight. The EU faces more danger from itself than from any outside threat, despite what some might think, some people are stuck in a mindset that the next generation have no time for, and wish to move on from.
    What?

    The EU is all about... Fighting? Since when? The entire point of the EU is to be all about not fighting and trading instead. Ergo, it is now the largest and most powerful trading block on the planet. NATO gives member states an umbrella of military protection that hasn't been afforded anyone else in the history of ever.

    Why would anyone in their right mind think it bad?...



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  23. #58
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    [QUOTE=Duncan Gibbs;5614988]What?

    The EU is all about... Fighting? Since when? The entire point of the EU is to be all about not fighting and trading instead. Ergo, it is now the largest and most powerful trading block on the planet. NATO gives member states an umbrella of military protection that hasn't been afforded anyone else in the history of ever.

    Why would anyone in their right mind think it bad?.../QUOTE]

    Its bad when it comes with "strings attatched" on who we can do buisness with. Look up how much GDP the EU has lost since the US imposed sanctions; big effect on the EU, nary a scratch on the US. The EU knows buisness is a better model than war, something the US has not yet figured out.......
    Nothing wrong with a protective alliance, but it needs to move on with the situation on the ground, there is too much money wasted on defence from a non-threat, that could be better spent elsewhere rather than dividend payouts to the stockholders of the likes of Raytheon, Boeing and Lockheed Martin.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    You reckon?

    https://www.ceps.eu/publications/rev...ee-years-later

    This is not an important figure for an economy the size of the EU.
    Again, not any kind of reason to exit the EU.
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  25. #60
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    The EU is all about... Fighting? Since when? The entire point of the EU is to be all about not fighting and trading instead.
    I hate to quibble with a guy recovering from serious injuries. How's that coming along?

    The EU is about trading in order to prevent fighting. Trading doesn't replace fighting. Completely legit to use it as a weapon.

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  26. #61
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Brexit Bulldog bites the dust.

    T. May declares for a soft brexit and David Davis, the poor sod charged with negotiating Brexit, resigns, after a two day delay.

    Stand by for further chaos reports.
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    The EU is well rid of them (UK). Now the largest economic/ productive entity and trading bloc can get on with it!
    Xanthorrea

  28. #63
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by purri View Post
    The EU is well rid of them (UK). Now the largest economic/ productive entity and trading bloc can get on with it!
    Not all of us want to leave. My area of North Wales voted decisively to stay, because it was recognised that as one of the poorer parts of the UK/Europe it benefited from what the EU could help us with. If?when we leave my area will, I'm sure, suffer economically as well as socially
    Yma o hyd

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by purri View Post
    The EU is well rid of them (UK). Now the largest economic/ productive entity and trading bloc can get on with it!
    How much do you know about the actual workings of the EU? Have you ever met or talked with people working for the EU?

    I have. Indeed, we had a flat in Brussels for four years while my husband was consulting for the EU. We had (and have) many contacts with senior officials there.

    Despite all you read in the papers and the myths that abound amongst leavers and others with no sources of genuine information, the UK was known as a pragmatic and constructive contributor and one with considerable influence. And, of course, the UK was a powerful voice for some strands of opinion supported by many other members. And that's not to speak of the financial benefits to the EU of UK membership.

    I'm afraid your comment has little substance.
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  30. #65
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    ^ and thanks to UK government and a quasi national/ identity stupidities; you reap what you sow. I did expect better of this discourse but from the crass nationalists infesting this NATION (as tourists and their Oz lickspittles; the immediate High Comissioner Alex Downer) supposed as infecting there "intellectual" philosophical imperatives here then I have no truck with the UK. Again: you reap what you sow.
    Xanthorrea

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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by purri View Post
    The EU is well rid of them (UK). Now the largest economic/ productive entity and trading bloc can get on with it!
    As the UK was a net contributor, they are probably not better off without us.

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by purri View Post
    ^ and thanks to UK government and a quasi national/ identity stupidities; you reap what you sow. I did expect better of this discourse but from the crass nationalists infesting this NATION (as tourists and their Oz lickspittles; the immediate High Comissioner Alex Downer) supposed as infecting there "intellectual" philosophical imperatives here then I have no truck with the UK. Again: you reap what you sow.
    Or, to put it another way, you don't know what you are talking about (and neither does anyone else)

    This appears to be an outburst of venom, but, who knows?
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  33. #68
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    And Boris The Liar walks off into the sunset.....

    Anybody fancy Gove for our next PM?
    Someday, I'm going to settle down and be a grumpy old man.

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    Quote Originally Posted by P.I. Stazzer-Newt View Post

    Anybody fancy Gove for our next PM?
    I certainly see him positioning himself as such. Much positive stuff from him [for a Tory] since he went to the Environment Dept and was well thought of in his other jobs. But does he really want to sup from this poisoned chalice?
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    Default Re: Brits...brexit

    ^ Its no wonder Cameron just walked off when he did, must have realised the clusterfudge he was responsible for.

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