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Thread: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

  1. #36

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Edward, my response earlier has me thinking about creating my own lines plan and construction plan (minus sail plan) and then seeing if I can get help to critique it. Would you or anyone else on here be interested in doing that for me? I'd post my work in progress drawings on a separate thread probably titled something like "Creating my version of a Spitsgatter daysailer". I purchased a book last week called Elements of Yacht Design. I guess if I am going to attempt something like this, I better get it out and read it.

  2. #37
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    When dealing with the table of offsets it is helpful to remember that the designer of a vintage boat like Eel or the 12 1/2 drew the boat in a scale based on personal taste and/or what fit on his drafting table, using a pencil. Then he went back and measured off of that drawing to create the table. With that many variables you are only going to get close (usually pretty close) but that is why we loft full scale to work the minor discrepancies out. Imagine what is was like to pull measurements off a half model! You can sometimes find a resource that will point out the corrections needed (at one point somebody on the Eun Mara forum had collected all the discrepancies in one document, very helpful to those that followed) but it seems to me that most people just fair their way past the odd dimensions in the time-honored tradition of boat builders correcting errors by the designer. I imagine a boat drawn with one of the various CAD programs in use today would be a lot closer, though things get a little weird sometimes when you have to translate decimals into fractions. I suppose that is one more reason to switch to metric.

    Nobody has mentioned it yet, but building yourself a scale model at say 1":1'-0" can be very helpful in refining your selection. 1" is a pretty decent scale to practice your lofting skills and you can do it on a nice table as opposed to on your knees.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  3. #38
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    i really like scale-lofting at 1 1/2" = 1' - so every 8th mark becomes 1" at scale, I just find it's a bit easier on my noggin' that way.

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    George,

    You have a good eye for a nice boat. Your looking at 15-20ft daysailers with some ballast keel. These trailer boats have good reserve stability for sailing in gusty conditions and chop.

    At this size, for their use, trailerability and even on a shallow water mooring, you really shoukd be looking at a centerboard boat. You have also referenced a preference for a smooth hull. It does reduce wetted area. It is possible, to build a small carvel boat, it would make you a fully paid up member of the 'hairy arsed' boatbuilding club. It requires framing and planking sufficiently thick to take fastenings, and you would need to plane convexites and concavities in the planks and accurately measure, define and plane rolling bevels on the plank edges. It would then leave you with a boat susceptible to opening up with large changes in ambient moisture between seasons and immersions.

    It would be easier to strip plank the hull. This technique, using narrow strips permits the edge bevelling and convex sculpting etc to be avoided. Epoxy adhesive will fill the gap, glass will reinforce the planking. Cold molding is the other technique to have a smooth skin, but most people would say, strip and glass is probably the easiest method to construct a smooth hull in this size category especially for a novice builder.

    Given these assumptions....you might want to look at this: Sjogin III.



    https://store.gartsideboats.com/coll...oop-sjogin-iii


    A 19ft double ender, centerboard, ballasted, decked, daysailer with a construction plan for strip planking. You could also have the enjoyment of lofting it full size from the planset published in Watercraft magazine 93 (you should pay Paul for the design if you build it - you'll get a discount voucher in his book too). It will look just like Pax, but smaller. Same defining stern that has caught your eye.



    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 07-09-2018 at 03:18 PM.

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    There are a couple of boats of similar size and performance at the Port Townsend Pocket Yachters site (maintained by the aforementioned Marty Loken). Go to http://www.pocketyachters.com/Port_T..._For_Sale.html

    I just came home from our Sucia Island rendezvous in my Chebacco (not the one for sale) and can attest that a 20 foot trailerable cruiser is a very versatile thing.

    Jamie

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden


    Wow, Katie Mae hasn't sold yet? She's such a beautiful little boat.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  7. #42

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Edward, I can't figure out how to make the photo larger but this is a photo out of a book I have on Danish boats. Do you see a resemblance to a boat we've been talking about?
    Attached Images Attached Images

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    George, you had better by a copy of Christian Nielsen’s “Danske Bådtyper”, (Danish Boatypes) it is fantastic, and if you like shapely hind-quarters this will fill a need.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Wow, Katie Mae hasn't sold yet? She's such a beautiful little boat.
    Where is she listed?

    Alex

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    Where is she listed?

    Alex
    http://www.pocketyachters.com/Port_T..._For_Sale.html
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden



    Quote Originally Posted by George Ferguson View Post
    Edward, I can't figure out how to make the photo larger but this is a photo out of a book I have on Danish boats. Do you see a resemblance to a boat we've been talking about?
    SjoginIII is the same as the boat on the left, at 19ft with a centerboard.





    'Danish boats' are usually fuller waterlined aft, over a Norwegian boat. This does help sail carrying power within the limitations of a double ender, but it causes turbulent flow aft and more helm imbalance as it heels. If you want a 'more powerfull boat' for a given LOA it's best to go with a transom. The Sjogin III above retians the Scandinavian rudder/ stern you would recognise on Pax etc, but the waterlines are still balanced fore and aft: as it rolls it (relatively) won't generate weather helm.

    You might look at the aft stem on Sjogin III and see something funny going on, but it's optical. It's straight in the section where the rudder fittings attach so that they pivot 'in line' to reduce binding and wear, something that is good. Some designers would maintain a curve and to hell with functionalilty...

    There is a boat, Nielsen's Primrose, that you'd like, but you really don't want a 15-20ft keel boat unless you have access to cheap cranage/ storage and all round deep water. If you don't have these 3 things, you would find it has neither the shallow draft inshore advantages of a centerboard dinghy or the liveaboard ability of a bigger keel boat, but with all its running costs and maintenance (cranage is usually charged at a minimum 28ft for example)...The centerboarder will be more fun to sail most of the time.





    Sjogin III will look like Primrose (even the same decking arrangement) but it won't have its ownership drawbacks, plans are available, designer still alive to talk to, 3 construction methods detailed, plans published for perusal in a back issue. There was one being built on here, but can't find the thread.
    Last edited by Edward Pearson; 07-10-2018 at 04:37 AM.

  12. #47

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Edward, I like Sjogin III but it doesn't have a cabin. That's not something that would total rule it out though as I am becoming more reasonable (in a way) with the compromises I need to make to get a boat that will serve my needs. In fact, I really like the plan for Sjogin III a lot, including it's designer. As I think more about specifically where and how I'd use the boat, it makes me really think about what is practical for me.

    One trip I've dreamed of is hauling a boat 1,100 miles from here up to Lake Powell (Arizona/Utah) and spending a couple of weeks with my daughter exploring the lake. Staying overnight on the boat would be necessary on that trip. I also want to use the boat to explore shallow lakes and swamps in the east TX/Louisiana area. Being able to easily trailer the boat behind my truck (currently a Toyota Tacoma that I like a lot) is a definite requirement, more so than a cabin. And being able to launch the boat from a ramp is also a definite requirement.

    I'm actually thinking my strategy may need to be longer term and for two boats eventually. My daughter will most likely want to take a boat with her when she's moved out on her own. I also want a boat I could take offshore for short trips. I don't think I can feasibly cram the requirements of both scenarios into a single design that will work for me. I'm going to keep my options open for the perfect little boat to haul around for lake sailing and also keep learning more about boat design and work on an idea I've got for a boat that will be better suited for keeping in the water all the time and using for offshore trips a few years down the road. The small boat will be a purchased design. The cruiser will be a design I work on myself and finalize with the help of a professional boat designer. For the boat I want to partially design myself, for now, I'm focused on something similar to Pax. I can't get that boat out of my mind.

    I'm going to do more research on Sjogin III and will probably have more questions. Thanks a bunch for the help! I really, really appreciate it.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    One thing to consider when thinking about the lakes on the Colorado like Lake Powell is that from July through September is the monsoon season in the southwest and very severe thunderstorms are very common,being down the canyons like these lakes are you will likely have little warning. These lakes are my planed playgrounds for the boat I'll build and I am thinking that they will require a boat that will be able to handle a serious if short lived squall in what is fairly confined quarters, that ability combined with a shallow draft with the board up and being easily trailer-able is making the choice of what to build challenging.

  14. #49
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    My daughter will most likely want to take a boat with her when she's moved out on her own.
    Just gotta say, you've got an awesome daughter.

    Alex

  15. #50

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Quote Originally Posted by eggman918 View Post
    One thing to consider when thinking about the lakes on the Colorado like Lake Powell is that from July through September is the monsoon season in the southwest and very severe thunderstorms are very common,being down the canyons like these lakes are you will likely have little warning. These lakes are my planed playgrounds for the boat I'll build and I am thinking that they will require a boat that will be able to handle a serious if short lived squall in what is fairly confined quarters, that ability combined with a shallow draft with the board up and being easily trailer-able is making the choice of what to build challenging.
    Eggman918, thanks for that info. I'd been thinking of that some but not placing a lot of thought on it. What are you planning on using on Lake Powell?

  16. #51

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Quote Originally Posted by Pitsligo View Post
    Just gotta say, you've got an awesome daughter.

    Alex
    Alex, thanks! I think she is! We like to go on camping adventures. Last year she had me out camping on the beach at North Padre Island in high winds. My wife left it to us and had her a nice comfy hotel room, lol. She's 10 now but was 9 then.

    We can camp in the middle of nowhere with the coyotes and owls making racket all night long, and she'll sleep like a rock. If there is thunder and lightning, we've got to pack up and get inside a structure she deems safe, right away.

    We haven't been sailing in a while but when we have gone sailing she enjoyed it, especially when she got to drive! I grew up hunting, fishing, and riding horses but now I live in the city. I want her to experience the life growing up that I took for granted. I hope that she keeps enjoying sailing and will continue to do that where ever life takes her.

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    As of now the top pic for me is
    http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/DollyVarden.html but there are a few others on my short list,I'm partial to the more "old school" designs.
    It will be used for extended "camping trips" with one or two of my grand kids depending on the planed duration so it will need to be both comfortable as well as capable of weathering what ever might come our way.
    In many ways I feel the same parameters discussed in this thread apply to my needs http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...e-trailer-boat
    Last edited by eggman918; 07-10-2018 at 05:00 PM.

  18. #53

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Quote Originally Posted by eggman918 View Post
    As of now the top pic for me is
    http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/DollyVarden.html but there are a few others on my short list,I'm partial to the more "old school" designs.
    It will be used for extended "camping trips" with one or two of my grand kids depending on the planed duration so it will need to be both comfortable as well as capable of weathering what ever might come our way.
    Out of the Atkin designs, Eric Jr is a neat little boat. She's a lot like the spitsgatters that I've been looking at a lot here lately. But, she a little heavy to trailer around. She weighs 7,000 lbs and her draft is 4 ft.

    I like looking through the Atkin designs.

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    There arm a few that I'm very fond of, for me anything over 5,000 lbs would be bigger that I want to tow but my truck is capable of safely towing up to 7,500 lbs.......but I don't really think that heavy would be suitable in the water for my desired crew and I where we plan to spend most of our time.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    But, she a little heavy to trailer around. She weighs 7,000 lbs and her draft is 4 ft.
    You're probably already keenly aware of this, but just in case: Don't forget to include the weight of the trailer in your calculations. Bucephalus is 3000#, but her dual-axle trailer is another 1200#, and even with the bigger 6cyl, towing for any distance makes my Toyota Tacoma grunt. For the real long-distance hauling --including a transcontinental in '99-- she tows behind a Uhaul.

    Alex

  21. #56
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    "Yeah, well, that's just, like your opinion man"
    -The Dude-

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden



    Vivier's "Benguet" might be worth considering.

    A boat you plan on trailering needs to be easy to tow and launch. Part of the design philosophy behind those old canoe yawls was ease of putting them on a train or on the deck of a larger ship to expand their cruising range, hence the centerboards and tabernacles. My Eun Mara is "trailerable" but the time spent getting her set up and taken down is considerable, I keep her in the water all the time and get to use her whenever I have a spare couple of hours. Traditional carvel and lapstrake planking like to be kept in the water, 60 mile an hour winds dry things out fast. You might want to consider a more modern build style for your adventure-boat.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    I have nothing to add to this conversation other than to say that if I ever have a sailboat it will be one of these. I don't really care which one (well - of the ones with two pointy ends that is). They are all lovely, but Primrose... wow.

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Primrose is a beauty. Unfortunate for us that Mr. Nielsen stipulated his plans were not to be sold to the general public.
    Steve

    Boats, like whiskey, are all good.
    R.D Culler

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Traditional carvel and lapstrake planking like to be kept in the water, 60 mile an hour winds dry things out fast.
    That is *very* sound advice. Trailering B south from Olympia to Santa Cruz at the end of August (no choice on timing; school schedule) dried her out terribly. In those fourteen hours, the joints in her oak deadwood opened wide enough to see daylight through them. I still think the trailer motion --especially one sphincter-clenching moment at the notorious 680/24 interchange-- shifted her stem out of alignment because it had dried and loosened from the trip south.

    If trailering is to be a major part of the boat's use pattern, this may be a very good place for modern, monocoque building.

    Alex

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden


  27. #62

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden


  28. #63

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    I'm still trying to decide on a boat for day sailing that I can trailer around. But, in the meantime I am working on creating drawings for a spitsgatter like Pax. I need help though with figuring out some of the specs though. Some of the questions I have at this point are........

    What size frames?
    What size floor timbers?
    Stem Size? Keel Plank size? Stern Knee size?
    Plank thickness?
    Deck beam sizes?
    Amount of lead keel ballast?
    Camber for deck / cabin?

    Below is a photo of Pax showing her profile view.

    Also, if anyone knows where I can purchase plans for this spitsgatter design, please let me know.

    Capture.jpg
    Last edited by George Ferguson; 07-13-2018 at 01:09 PM.

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  30. #65

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Thank you for the links you posted. That was good reading and helpful. It's interesting though that today I just ordered the book by Maynard Bray and Tom Jackson, Worthy of the Sea. The reason I did is because the article that named the book had a photo of the lines for Holger Danske, a design by Aage Nielsen. Those lines are very much like Pax. The keel is somewhat different, but not a lot, and it doesn't have the large rudder, but it's still a very beautiful boat. Your boat that you posted a photo of on here is also a very pretty boat. An Albert Strange canoe yawl design? What's the draft and displacement of it?



    Keep sending me any info you think may be helpful.

  31. #66

    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    Canoeyawl, look what I found at this link after trying up more info on Northern Crown.

    https://www.offcenterharbor.com/wp-c...thernCrown.pdf

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Canoe Yawl, design by William Garden

    I began to build this boat many years ago, It awaits my return. I found that I was conned into starting the project by a business owner who wanted me to buy more of his stuff than I had the capacity to do. Lately I have embarked upon the construction of George Holmes Ethel instead.

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