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Thread: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

  1. #36
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  2. #37
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    wow - suddenly the danger of moving the kids becomes pretty clear.
    "People should be able to access these benefits [Social Welfare] as a matter of right, with no more loss of their own standards of self-respect than would be involved in collecting from an insurance company the proceeds of an endowment policy on which they have been paying premiums for years."
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  3. #38
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Elon musk putting his team to good use!
    http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-0...r-team/9950934

  4. #39
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    I hadn't realized just how much trouble these kids are in until I read about the diver who died. It's a five hour underwater swim with the tide, or six hours against the tide. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44734385

    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

  5. #40
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    But how much of the five or six hour trip is underwater….? some make it sound its a five hour swim , or is it in fact passages of diving and lots of walking. If an experienced SEAL diver and Triathlete lost his life, through lack of air, how much time can a scuba tank provide that that brave man got it wrong? And what chance of the kids getting it right.
    And what exactly were they doing in a system that has passages of only a metre even when its not flooded, and four Kms in from the entrance? and see how they are dressed poor mites, someone has some questions to answer.
    'C'est la vie' say the old folks it goes to show you never can tell

  6. #41
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Focus on getting them out successfully, jonboy; plenty of time to probe motives and assign blame after that job is completed.
    Hope for the best, but plan for the worst.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    The diver who died was helping to lay stage tanks. It's standard practice in long dives, whether caves, wrecks or great depth (depth is more complicated), to lay a series of tanks along a route so that divers can penetrate further and, of course, replace depleted tanks through the return. The divers in this rescue are laying loads of tanks through to the chamber where the boys are trapped. I'd guess they're laying tanks to support all the rescuers and the rescued, not only for the current series of flooded passages but also for the passages which might also flood. Visibility is nil so all tanks need to be placed in positions connected to the guidelines, without actually impeding navigation along those guidelines. Yes, much of the exit is not flooded but a swim nevertheless and presumably those swims will all involve carrying tanks. Swimming on the surface with a tank isn't easy and good buoyancy control is needed so that divers can swim on and below the surface. Any effort uses more air and panicking uses stacks of air so there will need to be an awful lot of tanks available. I'm also assuming that when they bring the kids through, they'll have divers posted either side of each squeeze (narrow) section to hand over each kid as they come through as any deviation at these points would be fatal. All this in nil visibility.

    It's already so tragic that a rescuer has died. It'll be simply amazing if they can pull this rescue off without more deaths. I really hope they can. I have to admit that the prospect of taking all these kids out that way is worrying the heck out of me but I also think they'll probably be successful. I really hope so.

    Rick

  8. #43
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Clarification/explanation needed please.

    If the caves are flooded in at least four separate areas, how are theses isolated areas subject to currents and tides?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  9. #44
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Clarification/explanation needed please.

    If the caves are flooded in at least four separate areas, how are theses isolated areas subject to currents and tides?
    i will opine the following (may or may not be factual)
    The current would be related to flow from an aquifer running through the cave system.
    There would not be any tides.
    Allan of the Grove
    "never send a ferret to do a weasel's job.."

  10. #45
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by S/V Laura Ellen View Post
    i will opine the following (may or may not be factual)
    The current would be related to flow from an aquifer running through the cave system.
    There would not be any tides.
    That would explain a lot.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Clarification/explanation needed please.

    If the caves are flooded in at least four separate areas, how are theses isolated areas subject to currents and tides?
    Apologies. I used the word 'tide' when I meant 'current'. Of course the site is well inland and not subject to tides.
    It’s really hard to define ‘virtue signalling’, as I was saying the other day to some of my Muslim friends over a fair-trade coffee in our local feminist bookshop. (Lucy Porter 2018)

  12. #47
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    It's hard to imagine how an experienced diver delivering air tanks to staging posts ran out of air, poor bloke. I guess when you have over 1000 rescuers and a lot of pressure, things get hectic. Very sad. Like Rick, I have confidence that these guys will get out. They have the best in the world making sure of it.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    All (I think) large cave systems are formed by fresh water flowing through limestone. Limestone, which is old coral reef, is dissolved by fresh water so, over time, rainwater seeps into limestone and carves out underground streams. Caves and sinkholes are formed as the roofs of passages collapse. Some cave systems have water flowing through at an almost undetectable rate while others have faster water, especially after flooding rain.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Cave diving is rated the most dangerous sport.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    It's hard to imagine how an experienced diver delivering air tanks to staging posts ran out of air, poor bloke. I guess when you have over 1000 rescuers and a lot of pressure, things get hectic. Very sad. Like Rick, I have confidence that these guys will get out. They have the best in the world making sure of it.
    Some of the flooded passages are so tight that the divers have to drag their own air tanks behind them, as well as what ever they are carrying in. Very arduous work. Cave diving is a whole new ball park for a navy diver.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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  16. #51
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    In my career I dove (SCUBA and KERBY band mask surface supply) for every employer I ever worked for. All research diving, sometimes in sewage, sometimes zero visibility, sometimes under Ice and sometimes in current. I quit diving at 49YO because it was to tough on the system.

    This is all of that and more.

    Some will survive, some won't if they dive to extract these kids, witch it looks like they need to do, it will not be a 100% recovery.
    PaulF

  17. #52
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    My thoughts too Paul, they may even lose some of the rescuers.

    All one can do is hope.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Cave diving is rated the most dangerous sport.
    Caving verges on insanity, cave diving in confined , narrow passages is right over the edge.
    The divers involved in this will really deserve that often abused tag, HEROES !!
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  19. #54
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Elon Musk is sending some people from The Boring Company over. I wonder if they'll come up with anything.

  20. #55
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    The first diver helping get air to the boys has died.
    https://www.livescience.com/63001-th...ve-rescue.html
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  21. #56
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Im leery of the bath tube. I almost paniced going under the house.

    Brave men.

    I read the air is getting bad.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    wonder if they could run a pipe into the chamber where the tykes are trapped and pressurize it with fresh air...

  23. #58
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Read “The Last Dive” by Bernie Chowdhury for a good explanation of cave diving, and the dangers of scuba in confined spaces.

    Peace,
    Robert

  24. #59
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    All true Rick. And breathing with SCUBA gear is very odd to start with. Youd want to do quite a few familiarisation dives before going for real. Plenty of battery powered lights. clipped to a guideline I suppose? The squeeze does sound tricky. Presumably you can still wear a mask on a long hose to get through that. But would the kids need training in all aspects of cave diving? I dont reckon. You wouldnt want to lose one though would you. But months in there waiting for the water to recede, and maybe being overwhelmed by flooding? Doesnt sound like a good option. I appreciate that I know nothing about cave diving and am just throwing up ill informed speculation.
    I pulled up a hose calculator

    https://www.gates.com/us/en/resource...low-calculator

    To get 100 scfm to the chamber with 17000 feet of hose - it would have to be at least 2" inner diameter. How much fire hose can be cobbled up in short order?
    Will

  25. #60
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by willmarsh3 View Post
    I pulled up a hose calculator

    https://www.gates.com/us/en/resource...low-calculator

    To get 100 scfm to the chamber with 17000 feet of hose - it would have to be at least 2" inner diameter. How much fire hose can be cobbled up in short order?
    that might work...

  26. #61
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Caving verges on insanity, cave diving in confined , narrow passages is right over the edge.
    The divers involved in this will really deserve that often abused tag, HEROES !!
    Oh, Yes!.



    17000 feet of hose
    a bit over 3 miles?? Da-um!

    So, unclear here - is this now (partially) flooded passage way how they got in there?

  27. #62
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    It looks like a slow-rolling tragedy, that will play out to a world audience. I can't help but think what it is like to be one of the parents. Agony.

    Meanwhile... at the White House --

    David G
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  28. #63
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    There are no guarantees here, that they all survived in the first place was a long shot. The odds on a successful retrieval are likely worse.

  29. #64
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by Durnik View Post
    Oh, Yes!.





    a bit over 3 miles?? Da-um!

    So, unclear here - is this now (partially) flooded passage way how they got in there?
    It flooded after they were deep inside.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  30. #65
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Last I heard they were trying to run an air hose right through. I don't know whether its there yet.

    I doubt very much that the group ventured so far into the caves on purpose. It seems likely to me that they went a little way in and then found the way back had flooded so then they went searching for another way out. No idea if that's how it went but just seems more likely to me. It's also possible that there are wider passages through but no one knows where they are. Some cave systems are mapped in detail but many aren't mapped at all. I think, usually, sites with such poor visibility underwater aren't used for cave diving so no one's mapped the underwater areas. Especially in a system that's dry for much of the year and then gets muddy flow when it rains.

    It looks like a team of British divers will have the job of guiding the kids out. That's good and not surprising as there is a lot of exploratory cave diving in very challenging conditions in the UK so a lot of expertise there. The upside of all this is that there's been enough to get the best in the world on site for the rescue.

    I'd also recommend that book mentioned above, The Last Dive. Excellent.

    Rick

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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    In my experience, things go as the universe wills at this point. There are experienced and dedicated folks there that want to help.

    This is not a simple problem, the spirit of these folks will be tested. I give whatever spiritual power I have to them, but in the end the soul of each will be tested.

    I have been here before, the thought shakes me deeply.

    Just remember the Coach feels guilty, the kids feel lost, and the rescuers feel daunted.

    This is where we as human beings excel, where the the real best of us happens...lets see if we are up to the task. I hope so.
    PaulF

  32. #67
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Caving verges on insanity, cave diving in confined , narrow passages is right over the edge.
    The divers involved in this will really deserve that often abused tag, HEROES !!
    Friend of mine did cave diving on the Nullarbor, he described being four hundred feet underground swimming along a five hundred metre passage, fifty metres in diameter and totally water filled.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  33. #68
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Four hundred feet underground?

    Rick

  34. #69
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Yes Rick. I've dived in Nullarbor caves too. Water clearer than the air in most cities. Entirely different to doing squeezes whilst holding your breath where having lights is of no advantage.

  35. #70
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    Default Re: Lost soccer team found alive in cave

    Four hundred feet down? Where?

    Divers don't hold their breath these days. We always fit long hoses so that connection to air is not interrupted. The only time you hold your breath is for an instant when switching stage tanks. Not holding your breath is a firm rule and really drilled in in good training. Extremely important in all low visibility diving situations but a lifesaving rule in any diving really.

    The news media here have been 'reporting' that the kids will have to dive down, through a squeeze, and swim up while holding their breath. That's total nonsense. No cave diver would have any part of that. They will use long hoses and keep the kids connected to air at all times.

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 07-07-2018 at 02:22 AM.

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