Page 1 of 3 12 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 35 of 99

Thread: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    I just acquired a Tammie Norrie in desperate need of some love and a good home.
    The clinker hull was built in 2004 with the builder using 6mm Hoop plywood. The planking as well as the stem looks likes a rather professionally build.

    However the building standards seem to have slipped with the remainder of the boat ,seats, lacking knees, forward rowing station measurements apears to be deviating from design, an off centre cut out for the centre board slot, and finnally a piece of Oregon scarfed into the keelson . The slot has been filled with some kind of epoxy which I only found after stripping some paint.

    Since I originally bought her as a rowing and motor version, but wanting the sail option my ideas where to either use leeboards , or possibly increase the keel depth an idea I quite favour or the least likely option being building a dagger board .

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Here are several picture.
    [IMG][/IMG]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Looking rather scruffy after spending considerable time outside.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    The hull is quite light stripped out and was easy to turn,and despite having lived outside no rot so far .

    At this point I am looking for input regarding the possibility of adding onto the keel which is I assume how similar traditional working sailing vessels used to look.
    Bellow is a rough simulation of a 100mm keel extension which I would be inclined to taper towards the former CB cut out.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New Zealand's Far North
    Posts
    8,142

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Good find! She looks scruffy, but not rotten. Good luck with the spruce up! Sorry I cant help you re the keel.
    There is nothing quite as permanent as a good temporary repair.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Olympia, WA, USA
    Posts
    2,251

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    The only note I can throw in is the literary reference to Swallows & Amazons, where it was clearly stated that while Amazon had a centerboard, Swallow had a long, shallow keel. Which sure seems a lot like what you're aiming for. Swallow may have been a fictional boat, but it is pretty well accepted that the author was well informed, and based his literary boats on real-life examples. So I think as far as precedents go, you're in good company. I wouldn't count on Olympic-level performance --but had that been what you were aiming for, I expect you'd have a different boat sitting in your shop.

    Scruffy, yes, but she has a nice shape, and it looks like she has found a caring and appreciative home.

    Strength to your arm!

    Alex

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Auckland ,N.Z.
    Posts
    24,978

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    I'm stuck between 2 threads. When I bought the stripper, 15 ft cedar core stripper, 50 kg thereabouts , it was unfinished and I had to add some keel to stop it skating and so it would track. Firstly I needed it to track because it gets towed everywhere That took a couple of goes to get right because the keel alters the handling under oars .

    So what I'm saying is i don't like the big keel, better just enough to track and use the board for sailing trim , off centre doesn't matter.
    Last edited by John B; 07-01-2018 at 05:40 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    I'm stuck between 2 threads. When I bought the stripper, 15 ft cedar core stripper, 50 kg thereabouts , it was unfinished and I had to add some keel to stop it skating and so it would track. Firstly I needed it to track because it gets towed everywhere That took a couple of goes to get right because the keel alters the handling under oars .

    So what I'm saying is i don't like the big keel, better just enough to track and use the board for sailing trim , off centre doesn't matter.
    Apologies for my anxious exuberance.

    Firstly having build the Ness boat which coming from the same designer exhibits some similarities, in as far the full length keel and the filled in rocker skeg. I always felt the difference in upwind sailing performance was insignificant sailing with the board down versus the board up .The primary function in close reaching with the CB deployed was the ability to tack faster and more efficiently , gaining several degrees of pointing ability and the possibility of righting the vessel.

    The negative impact of a CB are exra weight, maintenance and jamming, some speed sacrifice due to the slot, obstruction of the cockpit and ability to give you a wet ass in a seaway.

    Regarding the off centre comment the slot was cut out uneven and also apears to vary in width from 7/8” aft to 3/4” .forward.
    I will have to remove several floor timbers and cut into what apears to be solid epoxy.
    Worst scenario will be if I have some break out or bad chipping
    The keelson looks like tassie oak while part of the keel is Oregon . I am thinking I may have to possibly reinforce the outside of the keel in the area of the slot.? Picture below

    What material and diameter is your board? The cb box would be about 34” long and probably 12.5” high. Do you think
    6 mm Hoop ply would be enough?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    [IMG][/IMG]

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    I was given this dagger board recently and I am contemplating wether with a little addition and tidying up it might be a good fit for the TN.?

    My question is will the dagger board equal the CB characteristics and where would the optimum positioning be located?





    [IMG][IMG]

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    16,020

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    I don't understand that picture Tom. Is that a very long, thin daggerboard, placed horizontally? I'm assuming you know it goes vertical. Of course you do. As I said in the other thread, I think a keel is a really bad idea. Just makes it that much harder to get on and off the trailer, and to get on and off the boat on the beach. And may adversely affect its towing behaviour. It is more likely to shear off to the side. And Notwithstanding your comments about a boat you have sailed, which I couldn't quite make sense of, I am sure that a daggerboard or centreboard, or off centreboard, is going to be much better for sailing than a long shallow keel. If you go with a daggerboard, its position should probably be such that it's front edge is about where the front edge of the centrecase was.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Knowing my competitive nature and advice from the forum I would say the keel extension is dead in the water. Ultimately the TN will become harder to tack and will loose ground upwind with a simple keel extension.

    While. Sibbos sugestion of contacting Ian Oughtred is a valid point I have had not much success in that department in the past ,and why would a designer change plans that are functional annyhow.

    I would agree with placing the dagger board starting at the front of the CB cut out. In saying that I need to get that location as close to perfect.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    Auckland ,N.Z.
    Posts
    24,978

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    One option would be to just convert to a dagger board case. I took foils and rigs off existing dinghies and made them work. That way I can take either of a couple of boats away and use the same stuff. 10 footer or 15 footer.
    yeeehaw , those were the days...



    or

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    16,020

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Iain was very responsive years ago when I wanted to put the rig from the 15' Acorn into my 11' version. He didn't do email back then, I sent him a letter and he replied. He gave the go ahead and suggested moving the dagger board aft one station. I think you'll find sail trim and the position of your body weight give you plenty of scope to get the balance right. I can let go of the tiller and actively steer by moving around in the boat.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Northern NSW Australia
    Posts
    73,456

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Yes, I've had a phone conversation with him and he was very helpful.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Ok based on that feedback I take it back he did however completely ignore me at the Hobart W B F which may have been stress. Do you still have Ian’s phone number Peter.

    Sanded one half of the hull today including excess epoxy around the chines, and found this annoying building defect , although it might have also been caused through improper storage with the boat lacking knees and other internal bracing.

    Thanks John sounds like I will be rebuilding the daggerboard I have and preferably install a case constructed from 4mm ply running it through to the keel in the existing slot.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    16,020

    Default

    Is 4mm a bit slender? And wtf are these chines of which you speak?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Is 4mm a bit slender? And wtf are these chines of which you speak?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    If a boat has distinct angles such as in plywood clinker construction the are called chines.
    When I was writing I tossed up between chines and lands. And then I also sanded the gains hopefully.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    16,020

    Default

    You say tomato. I say banana.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Is 4mm a bit slender?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You are probably righ if I go ahead with the dagger option ,I will make my cuts and hopefully do not have to reinforce the outside of the keel ,if any problems arise.

    I will hopefully hear from someone who has had dealings with a TN dagger board set up boat!

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    After five more hours of sanding fairing and filling I looked like one of the Avatar characters I am sure the original builder would be proud of my efforts.

    The hull is ready to be turned made easier by these two handles. Well I did say early on this boat has had several owner builders.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    [IMG][/IMG].

    Hopefully this will be the only time I view things from this perspective.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    [QUOTE=Pitsligo;5609579]The only note I can throw in is the literary reference to Swallows & Amazons, where it was clearly stated that while Amazon had a centerboard, Swallow had a long, shallow keel. Which sure seems a lot like what you're aiming for. Swallow may have been a fictional boat, but it is pretty well accepted that the author was well informed, and based his literary boats on real-life examples. So I think as far as precedents go, you're in good company. I wouldn't count on Olympic-level performance --but had that been what you were aiming for, I expect you'd have a different boat sitting in your shop.

    Scruffy, yes, but she has a nice shape, and it looks like she has found a caring and appreciative home.

    Strength to your arm!

    Alex[

    Thanks for mentioning Swallow. I have to admit to having to look her up as I was not familiar with the boat from the book.
    Apperently her keel measured 2”x6”.with her length said to be 13’6” which is the same length as the TN.

    Fully agree with your comment regarding a performance boat, the TN probably will not be involved in any racing activities, and will either be rowed or sailed socially.

    Having raced on verity of CB and Dagger Board designs I realise designers require speedy ,winning
    and competitive boats in order to keep themselves employed.
    No doubt the same applies to more traditional boast designers which immediately rules out more traditional keel designs

    It would be great to have an evaluation available on the negative drag impact of a CB slot , versus the loss of performance in extending the keel.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Interesting how I seem to have come 360 degrees despite firmly indicating I was getting ready to install a dagger board last week.
    The additional keel area represents the square area of the dagger board while only increasing draft by another 4” inches.

    Sure would be be great to hear from someone with more traditional knowledge.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    The Tammie has been on the back burner with the preparations for the Queensland Cruising YC Vintage Regatta aboard Wee Barkie.
    Placing first on handicap in the small Keelboat class was the icing on the cake accompanied by glorious winter weather,and several days of cruising to and from the Brisbane held event.

    The Tammie Keel CB questions have been resolved and I will be building a Daggerboard case shortly,and adapting the foil on hand. Thank’s to everyone for your input.

    Question : Where precisely does the DB trunk need to be located?

    My guess would be starting at the front of the old CB slot outline ,and running the case aft from that point.
    Having always being challenged mathematicaly not to mention CL calculations I am looking for some advice on the correct position of the dagger board trunk.??

  26. #26
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Decatur, Georgia, USA
    Posts
    251

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by auscruisertom View Post
    Interesting how I seem to have come 360 degrees despite firmly indicating I was getting ready to install a dagger board last week.
    The additional keel area represents the square area of the dagger board while only increasing draft by another 4” inches.

    Sure would be be great to hear from someone with more traditional knowledge.
    Here's some traditional knowledge from the realm of fluid dynamics, i.e. aerodynamics and hydrodynamics. Your discussion of "board" versus "keel" seem to indicate that the only significant characteristic of a centerboard, daggerboard, or keel that you are aware of is its surface area. At least as important to its effectiveness is the aspect ratio of the foil (CB/DB/K/rudder/etc...), that is the ratio of its length to width.

    If surface area was all that counted in a foil, airplanes would have wings that barely protruded from the surface of the fuselage, at least, in comparison to the wings that are actually used. They'd sure be a lot easier to park, when on the ground!

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Noto View Post
    Here's some traditional knowledge from the realm of fluid dynamics, i.e. aerodynamics and hydrodynamics. Your discussion of "board" versus "keel" seem to indicate that the only significant characteristic of a centerboard, daggerboard, or keel that you are aware of is its surface area. At least as important to its effectiveness is the aspect ratio of the foil (CB/DB/K/rudder/etc...), that is the ratio of its length to width.

    If surface area was all that counted in a foil, airplanes would have wings that barely protruded from the surface of the fuselage, at least, in comparison to the wings that are actually used. They'd sure be a lot easier to park, when on the ground!
    My statement of trying to find someone with more traditional knowledge had more to do with personal observations while sailing my old Ness Boat,in which I found only marginal differences between close reaching with the CB deployed versus sailing without the CB.
    I also believe a clinker designed vessel combined with a foiled rudder possesses a fair degree of weatherly attributes already even without a CB or DB.

    The daggerboard I am using is a highly developed racing foil ,which as most foils generates lift only over a small portion of width of the foil shape.
    While I could utilise its 1.2m .length ,judging from previous experience while racing my 16’skiff with a 1 m dagger combined with our shallow river I will probably opt for a DB length of 75-80cm with a rebuild width of around 25cm.

    Finally allocated a couple hours spent working on the TN today. Digging out one suspected loose floor timber it was good news ,with only a small break out area and no rot which is rather amazing.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Spent several more hours on the TN today mostly planning and laying out the daggerboard while redesigning the forward seat to suit the DB and oar locks
    Since I have had limited advice and feedback to my questions looks like I will just let my instincts guide me .

    Then Andrew who has been crewing aboard WB dropped by with several slabs of Australian Red Cedar, and given that Ausie Cedar is quite light looks like the TN is on her way to becoming more than just a little cruiser.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    I ripped tinto he Australian Red Cedar slabs today and since I don’t own a jointer an old carpenters chalk line and my Makita saw had to do. Not sure if I end up using any of the slabs because despite coming from a large tree the colour is light due to sapwood and the Lichtie borers have been active.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    One forgets how much time rebuilding a simple floor frame can take. Several hours after the picture was taken it was finnally finished.

    [IMG][/IMG]

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    I even managed a quick trip to Tallebudgera estuary for a quick sea trial . Happy to report she rows like a little rocket,and tracks effortlessly from both oar stations. I will however need to replace those horrible hardwood oars.[IMG]

    how to capture screen[/IMG]

  32. #32
    Join Date
    May 1999
    Location
    north queensland
    Posts
    2,657

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    wonderful work Tom. She is a lovely boat. Rowing is such fun and a wonderful peacetime pursuit. I do hope you get many hours of simple enjoyment from her.

  33. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Bernadette View Post
    wonderful work Tom. She is a lovely boat. Rowing is such fun and a wonderful peacetime pursuit. I do hope you get many hours of simple enjoyment from her.
    Thanks Bern I am looking forward to rowing her and hopefully some new adventures.
    While I am enjoying restoring her I will not be keeping a log of the time spent working, as you would be aware frequently rebuilding houses or or boats does tend to take longer .

    Choped out the motor bracket cut out and added the last of my NG Rosewood , unfortunately I did not quite achieve the look I was after cest la vie it is glued now. Then I had to use some creative clamping procedures.

    [IMG]host image online[/IMG]

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Gold Coast Australia
    Posts
    2,543

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    [IMG][/IMG]

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    South Australia and Tasmania
    Posts
    16,020

    Default Re: Tammie Norrie “Brisbane Find” Questions

    Nice progress Tom. I think you are right, that the front of your daggerboard should be roughly where the front of the centreboard was. Maybe though a little further aft, if that is convenient. Possibly the old centreboard was longer and shallower, a triangle dropping down. So your daggerboard when deployed will be on average further forward than the centreboard was, if the front is in the same spot. Long thin boat like that, a foot or so forward or aft won't matter too much.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •