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Thread: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

  1. #1
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    Default Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    This forum is full of threads about glues but I canít find one which answers this question, apologies if there is one - please just point it out.

    What
    triumphs and failures have you had using Titebond III in structural boat construction - the sorts of things you have used it for and the years of service it has given.

    Background - I am designing a SOF peapod and have been investigating Cascamite - trying to avoid epoxy.

    http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...21#post5602321

    People have recommended Titebond III but as it appears to be a PVA I would like a little more convincing

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Simple enough to do a test. Glue up some blanks in your desires species and sizes, and toss them out on the lawn for the duration.

    Subject to 90 days in the rain, sun, moisture, if it holds, would you be happy for a dry sailed kayak frame protected by a plastic skin?

    I might think about PL Premium, about $6.00 for a big tube, probably enough for a kayak.
    Steve Martinsen

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    I've used it without failure for several spars and kayak paddles. Biggest issue is limited working time to get larger laminations together and clamped.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Quote from Bob Smalser's work

    The Titebond Family of Aliphatics: Convenient. No mixing, just squeeze. Short open times, fast tack, and short clamping times. Fast, and an acceptable long-grain layup glue—in heated, commercial shops, I've had rough-cut Titebond panel layups in and out of the clamps and through the planer inside of an hour. Flexible in temperature and to a lesser extent in moisture content, but the bottled glue can freeze in unheated shops. A flexible glue, it has been reported to creep under load, sometimes several years after the joint was made. The latest Titebond III appears to be a stronger glue than its two predecessors. Difficult glues to repair, as they won't stick to themselves and no other glues will except cyanoacrylates, which are too brittle for general use. Epoxy and fabric aren't bonding to aliphatic glue lines in marine strip construction, compounding repair difficulties. While not definitive, the new PL Premium appears to bond well to Titebond III residue and is worth pursuing by those repairing old white and yellow aliphatic joints.

    . . . Bob Smalser, Seabeck, WA

    And there is also this: http://contrib1.wkfinetools.com/bSma.../glueTest1.asp
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    We use both thickened epoxy and Titebond 3 in the build of SOF canoes and kayaks. The Titebond usually gets used in places where we'll have good clamping forces and would squeeze out epoxy, starving the joint. Most of the wood gets coated in either polyurethane or varnish, so it is well protected from the elements. We have not seen any failures from creep or moisture, but these are boats that don't "live" outside or in the water for long periods of time.

    Smallser's observations in Tom's post are on point. Titebond III contains some fibers to reinforce the glue joint - it is really a composite adhesive even though the adhesive itself is somewhat flexible.

    We'll continue to use it for this application and I don't see a good reason not to.
    "The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails."
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    TB lll is a good bonding agent when your joints are good and need no filling of voids/gaps

    it tends to shrink during the curing process

    firm/strong pressure while curing provides the best results(i even leave fasteners in place once it has cured though some don't)

    i'd heard about coating w/ the stuff and have personally had good luck doing so prior to painting(using exterior semi/gloss latex house paint) lesser quality big box plywood

    it turns a bit yellowish/orangish(not clear) when cured so paint would be recommended

    like most good bonding agents on today's market it is stronger than most woods when used properly

    the other comments above about the stuff having a short working time have been my experience also

    wetting/dampening both surfaces prior to use helps slow(not solve) the "pot life" issue

    i found SLATHERING both surfaces with the stuff FIRM/STRONG UNIFORM PRESSURE & a resultant UNIFORM OOZE 360ļ around an entire joint to be indicative of good expectations

    as with most/all bonding agents immediate clean up while still soft/wet is advisable(keep a damp/wet rag handy)

    if caught prior to full cure the stuff can sometimes be washed out of your clothes butt after it cures IT'S THERE...

    it does scrape off your skin fairly easily(though i shoulda worn gloves that day ;-O )

    water clean up sure is handy

    and if/when you do get it on your skin it wont make your babies be born'd nekkid toofless n bald headed ;-)

    sw
    "we are the people, our parents warned us about" (jb)

    steve

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    I have used TBIII on paddles and kayak stringer scarfs. I have one sof kayak that lives outdoors, and has TBIII glued stringer scarfs. It is four years old, and they appear as tight as the day the dried.

    It does want good fits, and really doesnít glue end grain at all, but it WILL stick like mad to concrete and metal. If you go to pop a cured blob of TBIII off the concrete floor, it will pull the top layer off, exposing fresh concrete.

    I quite like TBIII for paddle and oar blanks, actually. It is a dark glue line, and if the fits are just so, the dark glue line looks kinda nice against lighter colored woods.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    • A post of mine from another thread. I found it impossible to make T III creep. Impossible.

      "I tried my very best to make TIII creep, I'm talking severe stress for several months 24/7 with temperatures ranging from perhaps 120 F to below freezing and from bone dry to totally saturated, totally, and clamped with all my strength in a direction that would make it creep. It was 2 pieces of about 3/4 by 1 1/2 yellow cedar glued face to face for about 6" of their length with the pieces offset a bit so the ends were sticking out. I glued the two 1 1/2" X 6" faces together, clamped them in the vice overnight while the glue cured, made a knife cut across the glue line for reference, then placed the assembly endwise in a pipe clamp and torqued that bugger down as tight as I was able. It sat on the dash of my truck facing the hot sun for a few days, and I checked the tightness each day. Then it sat out in the yard day and night for a long while, then in the shop, then it spent a large portion of the winter outside on the ground under the eaves of the shop where it went from being rained on to being buried in snow and being subject to a winter's worth of freeze thaw cycles. It soaked up so much water that it expanded endwise until the ends crushed under the clamping pressure. It would not creep. I inspected the knife mark across the glue joint with a large magnifying glass and could not see that it had moved even 1/1000 of an inch. I don't believe that a well joined and properly glued TIII joint will creep. It failed the boil test though."

      That was with only a 6" glued face.

      I did another experiment with T III lately...

      Some time ago Bob Smalser posted that nothing will stick to dried T III, not even itself. Against my better judgement I took his word for it.

      Right now I'm glueing up 21 foot bead and cove strips of WRC at 1/2 x 1 1/8. There's just barely enough time to coat both edges then get the strip on and twisted and clamped before the glue has dried up too much. If they were 2 feet longer I couldn't do it alone. So...I was wondering what would happen if I wasted any time at all and one end was too dry and I had to rip the new strip off and try again. That would really really be a pain since I would have to clean the old glue off of the strip already permanently glued to it's predecessor before I could try again. It would be much better if I could just brush on a bit more glue and keep going.

      I cut 2 pieces each of WRC, khaya (African mahogany, porous) and rock maple (not porous) pieces at 3/8" thick by 1 1/2" wide by 8" long and rubbed in a good coat of T III on 3" of one end of each piece and let the glue dry thoroughly at 80 degrees F overnight. The next morning I applied another coat of the T III over the 3" on each piece and clamped them together, cedar to cedar, khaya to khaya and maple to maple.

      24 hours later I put one end of each pair in the vise and pulled on the other end until they came apart.

      100% of the glue held on the cedar and the khaya, 60% of the glue held on the maple.

      I concluded that on soft or porous woods the glue on dried glue was stronger than the wood , on non porous and much stronger and stiffer wood it would be better not to use fresh T III over dried T III."

      I have used it on several boats with nary a failure.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    [QUOTE=amish rob;5602583] "It does want good fits, and really doesn’t glue end grain at all,"

    Using 10:1 scarfs on WRC I can grab the long strip and swing it around and shake it and it doesn't break lose. Rub a first coat into the end grain, wait a couple of minutes, rub in another coat and clamp it overnight.
    21.jpg
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  10. #10
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    [QUOTE=Gib Etheridge;5602732]
    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    "It does want good fits, and really doesn’t glue end grain at all,"

    Using 10:1 scarfs on WRC I can grab the long strip and swing it around and shake it and it doesn't break lose. Rub a first coat into the end grain, wait a couple of minutes, rub in another coat and clamp it overnight.
    21.jpg
    22.jpg23.jpg28.jpg
    Mayhaps you missed the bit where I wrote I use it for kayak stringer scarfs? I’m a 12:1 myself, but that’s me.

    Maybe I wasn’t clear, but I don’t really consider a scarf to be gluing end grain. I mean, technically, yes, but the reason for the slash cut is to minimize the actual end grain. I don’t cut scarfs with a rip saw, for example, but a cross cut.
    I meant more along the lines of an end to end butt joint, or a 90 degree joint with the end of one stick glued to the side of another. Which, really, no glue or adhesive does well.

    Peace,
    Robert

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Gib, only slightly off topic question on scarf length. I've never made a normal scarf longer than 8:1 and don't think anything longer offers significantly higher strength. I base this opinion on the fact that any failure must start at the ends of any scarf, or lap joint, before any stress reaches the middle portion. However, there clearly is an increasing progression of tensile strength of sheer between a butt joint and a lap joint that must be considered. The questions is: at what ratio does increasing length pay any significant dividend?

    I recently had this opinion reinforced by J.E. Gordon in his book: "The New Science of Strong Materials: Or Why You Don't Fall through the Floor". His other book on Structures has been my go to source for basic understanding of such forces in materials for a long time. One caveat in this opinion is for plywood that has very thin outer veneers such that the initial stress might largely fall on the cross grain laminates of the second layer. Best to avoid such plywood altogether anyway.
    Tom L

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    I think you've gotten good advice so far. I'll just reinforce a few items.

    Skip the foaming polyurethane (aka Gorilla Glue). It doesn't test well for strength, and I've personally seen too many failures. I regard it as a fad.

    Urea-formaldehyde does indeed crystalize and fail after several decades of exposure. The hotter the environment, the faster the degradation. I've repaired several larger hollow box masts, for instance, that were 40 - 60 years old and had spent part of their lives in the tropics or the South.

    We've used Titebond III in our shop, as one tool in the arsenal, since it was released. As long as you address the freezing issue (which applies only to the wet glue, not the dried joint)... you should be fine. I, also, have had good luck regluing pieces that had dried TIII on them.

    Along with the TIII - epoxy would head my list for your application, and I agree with Jay. I'd opt for the G-flex (or System 3's version - T88) to avoid a brittle joint.

    Good luck
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    https://www.facebook.com/HarborWoodworks/

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    [QUOTE=amish rob;5602844]
    Quote Originally Posted by Gib Etheridge View Post

    Mayhaps you missed the bit where I wrote I use it for kayak stringer scarfs? I’m a 12:1 myself, but that’s me.

    Maybe I wasn’t clear, but I don’t really consider a scarf to be gluing end grain. I mean, technically, yes, but the reason for the slash cut is to minimize the actual end grain. I don’t cut scarfs with a rip saw, for example, but a cross cut.
    I meant more along the lines of an end to end butt joint, or a 90 degree joint with the end of one stick glued to the side of another. Which, really, no glue or adhesive does well.

    Peace,
    Robert
    I did miss that Rob, and I'm with you 100%.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Lathrop View Post
    Gib, only slightly off topic question on scarf length. I've never made a normal scarf longer than 8:1 and don't think anything longer offers significantly higher strength. I base this opinion on the fact that any failure must start at the ends of any scarf, or lap joint, before any stress reaches the middle portion. However, there clearly is an increasing progression of tensile strength of sheer between a butt joint and a lap joint that must be considered. The questions is: at what ratio does increasing length pay any significant dividend?

    I recently had this opinion reinforced by J.E. Gordon in his book: "The New Science of Strong Materials: Or Why You Don't Fall through the Floor". His other book on Structures has been my go to source for basic understanding of such forces in materials for a long time. One caveat in this opinion is for plywood that has very thin outer veneers such that the initial stress might largely fall on the cross grain laminates of the second layer. Best to avoid such plywood altogether anyway.
    Tom,

    I can't answer that question, because I don't know, but I do like to play it safe. 10:1 works well with strip building because it's cedar, so the glue can soak in a ways, and also because except for the strip at the sheer, or the top and bottom edges of the plank when I'm making up clinker planks with strips, they are all reinforced above and below with other strips, and the scarfs are staggered.

    The strip at the sheer is reinforced by at least the rail, and sometimes the decking. The strips at the laps are reinforced by the overlapping plank.

    Anyway, I don't need to know "at what ratio does increasing length pay any significant dividend?" since it's so easy to just follow the established procedures that work, 12:1 for ply for certain, and I 10:1 for anything that will be reinforced if I think it can stand the stress until it's reinforced. I expect that longer scarfs would be more reliable, but enough plus some is good enough for me, and I've never had a scarf joint fail.

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Tink,

    Just make sure your joinery is nice and snug, TIII is not at all gap filling. If you don't want to spend the time on the joinery use epoxy.

    Remember that line from The Mothers Of Invention, Frank Zappa that is? "That Acapulco gold is bad ass weed". Well, That Titebond III is bad ass glue.

    With SOF construction I would want to add a bit of glueing surface area where narrow pieces cross narrow pieces, not because I don't trust the glue, but because I don't trust the wood in sheer like that. You can take my opinion on that with a grain of salt, for sure, and you should. I've never built or had the opportunity to stress SOF, so I'm just shooting my mouth off.

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    I just looked at your SOF peapod thread. I would use epoxy and one screw on those stringer to plywood frame joints, with, perhaps, fillets as well. Reason? Plywood end grain. The joint will fail if you use Titebond. G-Flex would be my choice of epoxy. I'd bed the screw threads in epoxy, just drill, shoot some in with a syringe, and screw. Wipe up the squeeze out. I do most of that with a putty knife.

    Looks like a good hull. Looking forward to seeing it in the water.
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 06-25-2018 at 04:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Zappa sang that? Then Cheech and Chong were just doing a cover version?

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Quote Originally Posted by robm View Post
    Zappa sang that? Then Cheech and Chong were just doing a cover version?

    Well I'll be dipped. I've been wrong for 40 years!

    (I'm right about the glue though )
    Last edited by Gib Etheridge; 06-25-2018 at 05:59 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Thank you for the very detailed reply’s. I will get some Titebond III and abuse some different test pieces and report back. Notes also about the quality / type of joint which will depend on the part of the boat. Can use Titebond III In many places but epoxy for stringer to frame and stem.

    Thanks again TINK

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    I've used Titebond III for all sorts of boatbuilding. TIII has worked great for me, a lot better than the reputation it gets. For stringers crossing ply frames it might not be the best choice because contact area is limited unless you very carefully bevel the frame notch's. I prefer lashing. If you're gonna glue, thickened epoxy and a screw or bevel to match the angle the stringers lay in.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Second on lashing. Done carefully there's not even a lump in the skin.
    -Dave

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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    I have used a lot of Titebond II and III especially for furniture and cabinets. Because it's used so frequently in my shop I have made the mistake of buying large sized jugs. When finally finishing off a gallon container and getting a new bottle it was immediately apparent that the consistency of the glue in the new container was less viscous and easier to spread. Obviously, Titebond is water based - it doesn't like freezing temperatures in the shop as well as during winter transport. Titebond says their shelf life is 1-2 years and when bad it will have an appearance of an orange gel. However, in my opinion its ease of use properties degrade sooner than reaching the ultimate shelf life.
    http://www.titebond.com/frequently_asked_questions.aspx
    You'll notice in the answer to the third question from the bottom the code for determining shelf life is given. Moreover, buy often and buy small quantities.

  23. #23
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    Default Re: Titebond III - triumphs and failures (if there are)

    Mixing a new container of glue is a prudent thing to do. Either stirring or shaking will do the job. Shaking while inverted is my choice. The viscosity will then be more uniform.

    Jeff

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