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Thread: Cascamite for gap filling

  1. #1
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    Default Cascamite for gap filling

    I am designing a SOF boat and plan to laminate beams from lumber yard timber.

    I am considering Cascamite (Powdered urea/formaldehyde resin glue) as it is relatively inexpensive, easy to get hold of and waterproof. The boat will be dry stored getting the odd day on the water but the wood not in contact with the water for any length of time

    My research says that it has good gap filling properties but does not define that. To get a good joint will I
    a) be able to bond rough sawn timber to rough sawn timber
    b) take rough sawn wood and give a quick pass of a belt sander
    c) use timber that has been through a planner / thicknesser

    Is there a more suitable glue that is economical,

    Titebond III - 3.00 per 100ml
    Gorilla PU - 4.40 per 100ml
    Cascamite 0.54 per 100ml (when mixed with water to correct volume)
    Epoxy 3.17 per 100ml

    Thanks

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Cascamite is not gap filling. However laminating curved timbers will not create gaps big enough to be a problem.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default

    Thank you I had my suspicions, someone in the marketing department may have been expanding the facts





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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    I've used it many times for stack laminated kayak paddles, it does not stand up to prolonged damp conditions, it is somewhat brittle, does work on timber straight off the planer.

    I'd be wary of any gap larger than a millimetre.

    Swmbo used it to build a catamaran, I'll ask about beams.
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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    I thought Cascamite was that brown gunk that Lime Juicers spread on toast....

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    but if the alternative is the yanqui favourite Gorilla Pu. .


    seriously. I have used cascamite for loads of repairs but not a complete build..
    Coming back to stuff done maybe fifteen years ago, a ply roof on a cabin a ply deck over a previous deck, I found it doesn't like flexing at all and had structurally failed in a few places…..crumbled, granulated.

    I like its convenience and cheapness, Never done it, but occassionally think about adding oakum thread or chopped mat or chopped glass to both assist in gap filling and provide a flex that the pure glue doesn't have ...just a thought...
    'C'est la vie' say the old folks it goes to show you never can tell

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Quote Originally Posted by willin woodworks View Post
    I thought Cascamite was that brown gunk that Lime Juicers spread on toast....
    Na, you are thinking of Vegimite, and it is Auzzies.

    Cascophen is that reddish brown gunk that you spread on wood.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    but if the alternative is the yanqui favourite Gorilla Pu. .


    seriously. I have used cascamite for loads of repairs but not a complete build..
    Coming back to stuff done maybe fifteen years ago, a ply roof on a cabin a ply deck over a previous deck, I found it doesn't like flexing at all and had structurally failed in a few places…..crumbled, granulated.

    I like its convenience and cheapness, Never done it, but occassionally think about adding oakum thread or chopped mat or chopped glass to both assist in gap filling and provide a flex that the pure glue doesn't have ...just a thought...
    I would imagine that the frame for a SOF sailboat is going to flex a fair bit. Rather than mixing the Cascamite with water I could add Isolastic, a liquid latex additive added to tiles to make the bond more flexible - will carry on with more research

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    I'm not really a fan of Cascamite,its tricky to mix without lumps,doesn't like cold weather and in twenty five years or so it tends to crumble and let go.You can with care get very thin glue lines,which look good under varnish.In addition to the glues listed you could go to a local branch of Toolstation and get a bottle of this https://www.toolstation.com/shop/Adh.../sd3198/p52489 .The back of the bottle says it is rated to D4 standards which is a bit above D3 and you can use it with clean wood straight from a reasonably fine ripsaw.

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Reminded me that PVA white wood glue was used in some cascamite mixes , like it is what used to be called unibond in the UK moons ago, maybe still is, as an additive for almost any Gesso/cement/plaster... retards drying without pee, makes a sloppier easier spread….worth experimenting. But as above post 9 there are probably better adhesives out there now. couldn't open Mr Meachen's link to toolstation incidentally.
    'C'est la vie' say the old folks it goes to show you never can tell

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    Reminded me that PVA white wood glue was used in some cascamite mixes , like it is what used to be called unibond in the UK moons ago, maybe still is, as an additive for almost any Gesso/cement/plaster... retards drying without pee, makes a sloppier easier spread….worth experimenting. But as above post 9 there are probably better adhesives out there now. couldn't open Mr Meachen's link to toolstation incidentally.
    I just tested the link and it worked-might be geoblocked.

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    I have used Plyobond from a tube to fill small seam cracks, to keep the rain out, topsides. It seemed to work.

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Thanks one and all for the responses, I have done a lot more reading and after getting a bit confused I have reached a decision

    some of the better articles I found are

    http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...en-spars/page2

    http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...9330-What-glue

    Cascamite seams unsuitable as it appears to be brittle and I don’t think suitable for flexibility the frame will be put under.

    I have used PU glues and have had mixed results, some parts I removed after a few months use and pulled off with little evidence the glue had bonded to one of the pieces of wood. Other structures never failed.

    I could use one of the cheaper mass market PU glues but considering the large amount of work required in laminating the beams it is not a risk I wish to take.

    Premium PU and epoxy add a lot of cost and it seams false economy to use with timber merchant soft wood.

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Id use Titebond III
    Cheap, easy to use, dependable stuff. Requires good joinery and good clamping pressure.

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    wait, those glues are THAT expensive in the UK? a gallon of titebond is around 20$ here (maybe a few dollars more or less). my napkin math says I'm paying like 50-something cents per 100ml?! ... are you pricing it from the tiny-sized bottles? or is my math just really abysmal?

    and for epoxy, I pay like a $1.75(1.50) per 100ml. I buy 3 gallons at a time tho.

    do you have powdered weldwood over there? or is that the same as cascamite?

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    Default

    Think my maths is correct, I only build small craft so don’t buy in what I consider large quantities

    Titebond III - 3.8ltr 43.61 = 0.83gal > $57.50 which is 1.14 per 100ml or $1.50

    Epoxy 1.2kg 50.72 = 2.65lb > $66.70 which is 4.20 per 100g or $5.54

    Epoxy 6kg 129.99 = 13.1b > $171 which is 2.16 per 100g or $2.85

    Our wood is expensive also, probably why we have few home builders in the UK. We do have lots of second hand boats for a lot less than you guys have to pay







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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    If you do wish to use epoxy, I would go a step further and use the newest epoxy glue from West System, G/flex 650. We have used it for both spars and double planking with great success. The secret of this glue is that it retains a slight flexual strength and does not let go, crack or delaminate when wood moves under load or with changes in humidity.
    Jay

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Greer View Post
    If you do wish to use epoxy, I would go a step further and use the newest epoxy glue from West System, G/flex 650. We have used it for both spars and double planking with great success. The secret of this glue is that it retains a slight flexual strength and does not let go, crack or delaminate when wood moves under load or with changes in humidity.
    Jay

    8oz for $38 here in UK - $20 in the US, likely to be more when EU adds retaliatory tariffs




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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    It can be ordered in larger packaging as well. We use it by the gallon.
    Jay

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    What is the UV resistance like with G Flex?
    I have used cascamite for general joinery, it is economical but gets a lot of air bubbles in when you mix it which must reduce strength. Another UF glue is Aerolite which is superior. As said they can tend to fail after a long time, but then so can anything.
    I have used epoxy, resorcinol, & just about everything else, all have their drawbacks & i have had the odd failure with all of them. The big surprise was titebond3 I built a 26ft rowing gig to get a rowing club going, Built on next to zero budget I used tanalised Larch roofing batten for the gunwales, scarfed together with titebond3. finished with a woodstain it looked ok. That boat got absolutely hammered & abused by many scores of rowers & was in continuous service for over 7 years with minimal maintenance. The scarfs never let go.

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Quote Originally Posted by keith66 View Post
    What is the UV resistance like with G Flex?
    I have used cascamite for general joinery, it is economical but gets a lot of air bubbles in when you mix it which must reduce strength. Another UF glue is Aerolite which is superior. As said they can tend to fail after a long time, but then so can anything.
    I have used epoxy, resorcinol, & just about everything else, all have their drawbacks & i have had the odd failure with all of them. The big surprise was titebond3 I built a 26ft rowing gig to get a rowing club going, Built on next to zero budget I used tanalised Larch roofing batten for the gunwales, scarfed together with titebond3. finished with a woodstain it looked ok. That boat got absolutely hammered & abused by many scores of rowers & was in continuous service for over 7 years with minimal maintenance. The scarfs never let go.
    Aerolite is relatively economical here in the UK, I used to use it what is scarily over thirty years ago. Needs close matching parts but that not an issue with some parts of the build. I have gone away from the laminated beams idea but will still be doing a fair amount of gluing so OP question still very valid.

    Extremelyinteresting what you say about the Titebond III it certainly appears to be a good glue

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    re: cost of titebond and epoxy

    I am, honestly, a huge cheapskate - but that is exactly why I buy my adhesives in larger quantities - I very much understand your approach of minimizing your initial outlay of $. but that gallon (or a few) goes a long way to other uses & projects, if you're as cost-conscious as you seem I'm sure you can understand the value in that

    are there not suppliers of PVA wood glues, and epoxy in the UK/Europe that would be more affordable than the North American standards of titebond and West? I get epoxy from RAKA - but they are also based in the US.

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    I do shop about and there are suppliers who offer larger sizes which offer a saving but a rarely need those quantities so it would be false economy for me

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Rough sawn generally indicates the extremely rough surface you get from a sawmill, so I assume that was not the intended meaning. The surface that you get from a saw in the shop is a lot better, but without knowing the type of saw and blade used, it is not enough information. A good table saw blade should produce a smooth enough cut, a band saw, maybe not. Wood surface roughness is hard to define.

    The adhesive cost comparison is probably accurate, but the total amount of glue used for a SOF is too small to worry about cost effectiveness. Flexibility in a scarf joint should not be an issue for any reasonable wood adhesive. Gorilla is not reasonable. Ease of use and consistently reliable joints would dictate Titebond 3 or epoxy in my opinion. I almost always use epoxy, but have used titebond too.

    TDS links: Cascamite and Cascophen are two varieties of resorcinol, but seem to be quite different in detail.
    This has a lot of detail about the pros and cons of resorcinol glues: https://www.christinedemerchant.com/...esorcinol.html It says that resorcinol has poor gap filling capability. It does have it, but it is poor. I suspect that their failurte to go into any detail as to the size of gap indicates that it is not very impressive.

    This supplier http://www.hallmarkfraulo.co.uk/productdetail/cascamite indiactes that Cascamite is a Hexion UK product.
    Cascophen is made by Momentive. Both are very capable companies.

    I would hesitate to put much faith in a product with such a sketchy TDS as cascomite, but that is not always a reliable indication.
    Last edited by MN Dave; 06-25-2018 at 03:57 PM. Reason: typo
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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Thanks MN Dave for the detailed reply.

    the OP has a sub plot to it, I like to experiment with new, to me, methods and materials and was curious about Cascamite.

    I am trying for the challenge to build my SOF boat for less than 250 - 300 and though glue is comparatively inexpensive on this build consumables could easily run away and become a high percentage of the build cost.

    The current plan is to go for a removable PVC skin which would make every joint accessible and so an experimental, to me glue would ok as any failures could be fixed easily.

    Thanks again

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    Cascamite Is a Urea Formaldehyde, Cascophen is Rescorcinol formaldehyde. They are not the same.
    There was an earlier glue known as Beetle glue that was Amino formaldehyde based, it did smell nice & was often used in furniture building. As a boat glue it was pretty awful. Hopefully it isnt made any more!

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    Default Re: Cascamite for gap filling

    As an experiment, I can only say that your choice is fine as long as you understand and know how to work with the materials. And having read a little more, and being awake this time, I would say that urea formaldehyde is not quite as good as resorcinol for hot damp conditions although both have been used successfully on boats. Also I do like peapods. It might be a bit prone to crosswinds with the high sides and much lighter weight construction.

    Quote Originally Posted by keith66 View Post
    Cascamite Is a Urea Formaldehyde, Cascophen is Rescorcinol formaldehyde. They are not the same.
    There was an earlier glue known as Beetle glue that was Amino formaldehyde based, it did smell nice & was often used in furniture building. As a boat glue it was pretty awful. Hopefully it isnt made any more!
    Well, that's embarrassing. I did mix them up. One should avoid chemistry after a long drive and a longer beer. Since I am clearly a bit off track on some details, I can only add that you should never use beetle glue on a boat because Beetles rock 'n roll, which is not a good feature in a boat.

    So back to the same site from my previous, not so good post, https://www.christinedemerchant.com/...maldehyde.html says that UF us somewhat gap filling, which is better than poor gap filling, but a weak endorsement nevertheless.

    Of course we all know that superglue does not fill gaps, which makes you wonder how luthiers manage to use it to harden lumps of powder to repair worn nuts. So I will say 'maybe' to johnboy's filler idea. I have also read about the use of coscover sheathing, which is Nylon cloth bonded to a boat with Casc(amite or ophen). I have seen posts saying both, but the color described sounds more like Cascophen. Bottom line, you can produce a durable sheathing using cloth saturated with one of them, and it is probably the one that has worse gap filling capability.

    This is from a resorcinol thread, and the answer was that Kevin had it right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Breakaway View Post
    As a neophyte, I read these adhesive threads with great interest. What I am getting from this thread, and other epoxy v rescorcinol threads in the past, is that those at the "craftsman" level have the expertise to cut and fit very accurately, properly prep and setup for using rescorcinol and so enjoy its superior waterproof bond and thinner glue line. Those with less than craftsman-like skills (or the time and equipment) might be better advised using epoxy since its more forgiving--and still a good glue--even if not 100-percent waterproof/boilproof/etc.

    Would you guys say I have this right?

    Thanks for sharing all the expertise.

    Kevin
    Last edited by MN Dave; 06-25-2018 at 03:59 PM. Reason: typos
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