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Thread: French Sculling Developments

  1. #1
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    Default French Sculling Developments

    Quite apart from the recent Atlantic crossing powered by one oar over the stern the French seem to be up to some other interesting sculling stuff:



    Lots more details here:

    http://universitedelagodille.org/projet-2017/

    and some somewhat eye-opening perfotmance figures here:


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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Last edited by P.I. Stazzer-Newt; 06-16-2018 at 02:46 AM.
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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    A kind of box keeled ,Tirene bowed tub. How many calories do i need to consume to maintain 5 knots across the atlantic?

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    The blue waved one doesn’t have the same bow. And when and how do they use the two extra rowlocks?

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    I suspect that the blue one is an earlier design, possibly the slightly slower boat, 'Proton', in the comparison table.

    The other rowlocks let them do this:




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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Heard about this last year in Brittany: The Bretons will organize worldchampionships sculling. Two villages, same region, are fighting each other. In the past they sculled heavy pilotcutters in and out harbours.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    One thing I really admire about the French is that they aren't afraid to embrace non-traditional designs.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    A hot young French girl taught me to scull in 1975.
    I thought those Japanese guys had theirs goin faster?

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Interesting hull shape. The twist in the bottom vee panel at the bow is off the chart.
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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Interesting hull shape. The twist in the bottom vee panel at the bow is off the chart.
    Yes, I suppose they are trying to get lateral plane at the ends to resist the yaw caused by the oar?

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by mmd View Post
    Interesting hull shape. The twist in the bottom vee panel at the bow is off the chart.
    It don't think its as bad as you get on any number of single chine s&g designs, CLC Chesapeake 16 for example.
    I wonder how it would go with small fore and aft foils, instead of the box keel. They would be more fragile, but perhaps have less wetted area.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    I would think that the "box" keel would add considerable to its directional stability, working to counter the yawing induced by vigorous sculling. The wave-piercing "bulb" at the bow would probably contribute to speed retention, too. Or, at least, I suspect that that is the intent.
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    Very neat, looks like it would be a half decent sailing hull as well.

    I wonder if some of the energy lost wagging the stern could be captured and turned into thrust with a slightly loose rudder, or fish tail system?

    I remember having sculling races as a kid. My father made us stop when we snapped most of his oars. The power that can be generated is amazing.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    It's all very interesting - I had come to the conclusion that Atsushi Doi's AD Scull looked the better bet for higher speeds but these were achieved using a very minimal proa rather than what looks like a hugely capacious 15 or 16 footer.



    Regarding the suitability of the hull for sailing it reminds me a little of the late Warwick Collin's 'Universal Hull'.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Is there a video hidden somewhere of the French boats?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Is there a video hidden somewhere of the French boats?
    Yes there is, it's about 3/4 of the way down this page. http://universitedelagodille.org/projet-2017/

    You have to download it. This link might work directly?

    http://universitedelagodille.org/wp-...l_proto_MR.mp4

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    Is there a video hidden somewhere of the French boats?
    Not hidden if you speak French. Or in my case, copy some likely looking words off the French site and search with them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Pea View Post
    I wonder if some of the energy lost wagging the stern could be captured and turned into thrust with a slightly loose rudder, or fish tail system?
    Maybe?
    This https://youtu.be/dtv-5t8F29U looks like Platt Monfort's prototype that he brought to the Mystic small craft workshop back in the late 70s or early 80s. It didn't work well, but 'we thought that with a little tweaking it might be OK, and the video looks like what he thought would work.

    https://youtu.be/XO5VnvXTlic OK, poor execution, but there is a lot of room for improvement. Maybe 20 years ago MAIB reprinted a short article from around 1900 about a horizontal fin boat that was driven by pitching in a chop. It went pretty well, but had no provision for stopping.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MN Dave View Post
    Maybe?
    This https://youtu.be/dtv-5t8F29U looks like Platt Monfort's prototype that he brought to the Mystic small craft workshop back in the late 70s or early 80s. It didn't work well, but 'we thought that with a little tweaking it might be OK, and the video looks like what he thought would work.

    https://youtu.be/XO5VnvXTlic OK, poor execution, but there is a lot of room for improvement. Maybe 20 years ago MAIB reprinted a short article from around 1900 about a horizontal fin boat that was driven by pitching in a chop. It went pretty well, but had no provision for stopping.
    Interesting. Yes these are along the lines of my thinking, since a lot of energy seems to be wasted in wagging the tail and rocking the boat. But maybe they are limited to one moving foil by the race rules.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    If you aren't racing, any improvement is a good thing. The fins worked on a boat that didn't wag its tail, so they had to be actively wagged. A fixed but flexible passive tapered skeg like a swim fin would not appear to move relative to the boat. Once the rules committee caught on they might get upset.
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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by Clarkey View Post
    Yes, I suppose they are trying to get lateral plane at the ends to resist the yaw caused by the oar?
    I've seen an elegant answer to that issue when using a pair of sculls - run them anti-phase.
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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    If you ran them anti-phase, mightn't they bump each other?

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    I've experimented with sculling just enough to say I can do it. After reading this thread I'm inspired to give it another go.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    I did not see anyone sculling fast...looked like they were mostly first timers or beginners.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by wizbang 13 View Post
    I did not see anyone sculling fast...looked like they were mostly first timers or beginners.
    Click the gear on the video, then speed, then 2?
    Brief moment at 2 minutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rhcs0owtIrw
    Try 14 and 41 minutes, otherwise an hour long ordeal. https://youtu.be/FddLbeCvpu8
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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    I seen the drawings of this boat in facebook. This is the model wich crossed the Atlantic, and the sailor.
    His handle system I seen somewhere before, in some french colony. Don't remember but I know I seen because looks like a spade handle.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    "How many calories do i need to consume to maintain 5 knots across the atlantic?"
    A lot. It is a very clever point. I lost some pounds sculling and was hungry all the time. But still a good choice for a cruising boat, because you eat your fuel only. You are the engine and the boat don't needs ballast or much else a sailing boat with sails, rudder, etc.. In the trade winds being unkeeled and unballasted you drift very fast dwonwind.
    I don't like the way they scull looking backwards, there are other systems wich are or can be fast as this and you look ahead. Was mentioned the french use to try new things, I agree partially, because this system was used in old gillnetting boats and is very traditional. Just the boats have a wider transom and was designed a few years ago for this circuit.
    I read in the forum years ago somebody used a huge sculling oar over the transom of a planing hull and said was like a tail wagging the dog. But just needs a little of practice, actually the yaw helps sculling and is intuitivelly translated by the rower to the blade. So the same boat goes straighter than with a motor at displacement speeds and don't need a skeg.
    Is not incredible to do this speed in flat water sculling this shells. Worcester mentioned as his own opinion a 17 or so skiff can be propulsed easily at this speed with the traditional chinese yuloh, or the version for smaller boats. But studyes said the limit is five knots, because turbulence. The biggest advance the french had was to do the top of the oar concave, so the speed improvement, and is very recent.
    IMHO a flat bottomed light stitch and glue planing boat with the beam behind midships is the ideal shape. This french boats has deeper forefoot and the transom slightly touches the water, wich can be better but not by much, and less in rough water where a raked bow and the rocker ahead is of more benefit . Sculling can be a great auxiliary for most motor boats or for recycled powerboat hulls. The transatlantic boat had too much rocker for what it is, because the owner liked to intend this and then convert it in a sailboat. But he drifted downwind, not sculled at 5 knots all the time, I suppose sometimes used the drogue or just drifted away while resting.
    One point deserves attention I think, you need a fast oar doesn't matter if you go slow because otherwise while drifting your actions instead of propulsing will slow the boat for the induced drag. And going slow is more efficient with the fast oar too, so less tiring. A normal speed can be three knots, but one or two straight into the wind, wich is much faster than a boat of the same size with a low tech rig tacking upwind. The only hard is with cross winds, because the stroke to leeward is hard and the stroke to windward is almost without resistence of the water -think rudder like- depending the balance of the boat. For this reason some kind of board and-or little sail can be necessary only. I suppose is the function of the liftable skeg can be seen in the video at the transom of the boat.
    The bad press of the sculling oar for being slow is because is used generally in the West in big sailing boats, or by engineless cruisers with adaptations as secondary way of propulsion, or in very small boats without room like Paradox.
    It is cheap. To me was easyer to build a straight powerboat without all the needs for sailing and then learnt to scull, wich not regret, but at first was frustrating. I loved the idea for its simplicity.
    There is a celebrity in the US from the early XXth century, don't remember his name wich can be a sin for the fans of rowing. He went to China challenged from the son of the Emperor for a race sculling. The chinese meant one oar sculling, but the smart american read in the dictionary the definition and seen it can be two oars sculling. So he used two oars and defeated the 6'4'' Emperor's son, wich sculled a sampan with a yuloh. But not by much, and he was a westerner champion against an amateur. The prize of the bet was 10 thousand of the chineses coins but the american tought was dollars, so he was enthusiastic till discovered the prize in dollars was like six only. Worcester mentions a crew in a frigate was defeated by the chineses in a junk boat, the formers rowing the lasts sculling.
    Good thread you started Clarkey, I already sent you the missing message, but was in parts because was too long.
    Lots of interesting points still reading here, thanks to all.
    Gustavo, (sorry I know my english sometimes can be funny, to say the least)
    Last edited by VGTL; 06-20-2018 at 04:35 PM. Reason: spelling like Tarzan

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    ^^ Thanks, a very interesting boat, looks like sculling works well on it. I'd like to hear more about the oar profile.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    I used to scull my old Dovekie as well as most of the boats appearing here. PIL-PEL was 21'ft LOA displacing 600 lbs, sculled with a Shaw & Tenny 10' oar.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    I think I could scull circles around those guys with my old Lightning.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Pea View Post
    ^^ Thanks, a very interesting boat, looks like sculling works well on it. I'd like to hear more about the oar profile.
    I started my little experience working in Sydney at the famous cruisiers company, in maintenance. I have good remembrances of your country.
    The blade in a westerner sculling oar as this is about one third or the total lenght. The loom can be round or is better IMO as the bahamians with a bit of oval shape, the wider paralel to the water. The width of the blade is between 13 and 15 cm. Because a narrow blade not only works as a high aspect wing, but also when comes to the middle position a wider blade creates more drag. The total lenght of the oar about one half to ninety percent of the boat LOA, more or less, depends of the transom height. A triangular or diamond shape on top of the blade will help turn the oar sideways with less effort and the bottom of the blade flat. The french did it concave on top and a little rounded in the bottom, wich was better as said and is based in old chinese designs.
    The eastern sculling oars goes from the simple to a bit more complex yuloh or ro -japanese-. These have a curvature in the loom, the yuloh in the first third of the loom, the ro after the pivot point over the transom so almost in the middle. These can be longer, about ninety percent of the overal lenght in medium size boats as a skiff. The yuloh is favored by a high transom and the ro needs lower transom as in a skiff. Being lashed to the deck, and all the force under control by the rope and to the pivot point in the transom, the hydrodinamics can be better. The bottom of the blade is round and the top either flat, concave or diamond. Some have more hydrodinamic improvements as a secondary curvature in the tip of the blade or an offseted shape of the blade because generally these sculling oars are offseted in the transom to put the weight of the sculler in the middle and allows an assymetrical position of the body looking forward. The ro has a rod or pin attached in the top of the loom to control the angle of each stroke, and similar arrangement is used in westerner sculling oars but closer to the end, at 30 cm or so.
    There are vertical sculling oars too as the AD scull shown in a previous comment with advantages and disvantages, or different compromise.
    Take all what I said with a grain of salt.
    Wish this helps and sorry for my english, the few I practice while learning was in Australia and you know how people talks there LOL. Cheers mate.
    Last edited by VGTL; 06-21-2018 at 09:51 PM.

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    ^^ Cheers Mate! Interesting. I am also interested in the foil cross section, as your typical NACA foil is not going to work as the leading and trailing edges need to be identical. Same issue occurs with Greenland paddles. Here is a bit of research along these lines.

    http://www.basiliscus.com/ProaSectio...oaSections.htm

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Years ago in Sth Australia there was a bathtub race comp., largely for canoe/kayak paddlers in real plastic bathtubs. Very unstable……….

    Sculling was quicker but less stable, and not in the rules but I tried…………...

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Pea View Post
    ^^ Cheers Mate! Interesting. I am also interested in the foil cross section, as your typical NACA foil is not going to work as the leading and trailing edges need to be identical. Same issue occurs with Greenland paddles. Here is a bit of research along these lines.

    http://www.basiliscus.com/ProaSectio...oaSections.htm
    Blow my mind. And the oar is more complex yet because the top of the blade goes slower than the tip, with about 100 or more centimeters below the water surface. But cross section is top and bottom or side to side, with one side rounded (bottom) and the other cambered (top). Think half moon profile.
    I don't think in an oar of this kind great precission is of much advantage, specially after being in the washing machine with the wind blowing.

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    Default Re: French Sculling Developments

    One thing that strikes me is that people are now starting to talk about sculling as a viable primary or indeed sole, propulsion method for longer trips rather than just a nifty way of getting across an anchorage.

    Now I like a good row, either sitting down or standing up Venetian style. I like the rhythm, the feel, the glide, the clunk of oar on thole pin etc. etc.. A question I have is whether sculling actually feels good when doing it for a good chunk of time? it is a truly pleasant and rewarding way of making a boat go?

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    Well at least you can see where you are going...

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