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Thread: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

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    Default What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    The class rules allow for any material for hull and oars, although overall length is restricted to 5 metres (16 ft 4 inches) and sliding seats and out riggers are not permitted. Stability is tested by having the rower stand up and turn round. The boats are not intended to be out and out racers, as they must be capable of carrying a passenger and a picnic.
    More here: https://scottishcoastalrowing.org/20...e-freshwaters/

    Suggestions?


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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Osbert,

    That's bascially the rules for Cornish 'flashboats': no sliding or outriggers. The lightest one is Gartside's Flashboat in tortured 4mm Occume though he has a strip version.

    With the oar (and sail boats) it's really a question of how much waterline beam you wish to have/ how little you think you can get away with. Bob is a bit wider, the Flashboat and Coastal Rowing boat narrower on the waterline. You are experienced rowing so you should plump for a narrow one.

    With one or two people, apart from fore and aft balance, you also have to consider skeg immersion - which affects tracking with a passenger sat aft. If you sit further forward, you have to maintain oarlock beam too.

    IO's Acorn 15 will be a good allrounder with a good selection of rigs. Likely wider on the waterline to carry sail and foils which might make it a better allround ownership prospect depending on what you want to do with it. The Thames skiff's are laid out for a rower and a passenger/ picnic on the Thames. IO's Mole is an example that fits what you want.

    With a length restriction you will obviously end up with a straight stem/ transom boat which is good and bad.

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    Default

    Thanks Edward! Some good ideas, it’s not for me, but would be good to have list of options to share with others.

    I’m very happy with my Drake, which has a special exemption from the rules, despite being a few inches too long!


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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Just found out about the Picnic Class. What a good idea! Unfortunate that the length stopped at 5 meters as that many American traditional boat based designs are out of the picture, like St Lawrence skiffs, LFHerreshoff rowing boats, Piscataqua wherries, many guideboats, even the Drake which if it does have an exemption it is 5.2 m a bit more than a few inches. May be some other kit boats that wouldn't make it.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    If strip built boats are being considered, the Cosine Wherry easily meets those requirements -- depending on one's agility and balance in the turning-around bit.

    Last edited by Thorne; 02-20-2019 at 11:45 AM.
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    My favorite is the Adirondack guideboat. http://www.adirondack-guideboat.com/page/3/ Most of them were under 5m. The list in Durant's book only has a few longer ones ~18 out of ~300 in Durant's book. A lot of strippers have been built. Some SOF. Traditional construction takes considerable skill. I have only seen two plywood guide boats. I have a plywood model and dimensions on a spreadsheet, but have yet to build it full size.

    There are some nice Whitehalls and Rangely skiffs too.
    Management is the art of counting beans. Leadership is the art of making every being count. --Joe Finch

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Picnic Class has some pretty neat rules. LOA. any construction, no slides, no outriggers. Stable enough to stand up and turn around 360, enough floatation to float you and the boat. Enough length to carry a passenger with a picnic. I don't know if there is a second rowing station to balance the boat when you do. Its written up in the current Watercraft.
    Ben Fuller
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    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    8B08368B-A1BE-4684-B4B2-BD0026D8B30E.jpg

    A Peterborough skiff would also meet the class rules with some added flotation and oarlocks on the gunnels instead of the folding outriggers on this boat. Plans from the folks at Bear Mountain Boats. Strip contruction.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    8B08368B-A1BE-4684-B4B2-BD0026D8B30E.jpg

    A Peterborough skiff would also meet the class rules with some added flotation and oarlocks on the gunnels instead of the folding outriggers on this boat. Plans from the folks at Bear Mountain Boats. Strip contruction.
    Define "outrigger." I say yes. If you yell loud enough and seem crazy enough, they'll cave. That's the American Way

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by callsign222 View Post
    Define "outrigger." I say yes. If you yell loud enough and seem crazy enough, they'll cave. That's the American Way
    The OP and the class are both Scots, so playing the Ugly Amuriken may not go over well at all... Easier to just go with a design that is wide enough to meet the gunwale-mounted-oarlock requirement.
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Another double ender, the Rangely boat drawn by C.W. Barrett—the original was 14’ 7” long, 39” beam. This one was stretched to about 17 feet.....no reason it couldn’t be built to the class rule:
    2C916F81-A165-4A9C-9E3E-EB698E9E532F.jpg
    AD78449F-FC79-4226-9DD7-7D3CA00877BE.jpeg

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Duckers. Duckers. Duckers.
    Did I forget to mention Duckers.
    Should be a Class at the Small Reach.
    SHC

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Ducker runs out of WL in a short race, but runs nicely at 4 for a long distance. I won the Blackburn years ago in one before the guideboats and LFH based boats showed up. Ran it a bunch of years and no matter the conditions finished in about the same time. I have a note from the winner of an 1874 race who "will row anyone in the United States in gunwhale working boats for $1-5000" Given the length of the sailing and rowing races on the Delaware then (30 miles) I can see that.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    As you are a scotsman I think you should look for a boat that is seaworthy enough for some rough water. Your weather doesn't exactly qualify as predictable and you want to use the boat all season..... preferably a boat with a local falavour..... what about a Shetland whilly boat?

    Peerie Maa on this forum has a wonderful one.
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    I've first read about the picnic class several years ago but haven't seen more info about it; is it very active compared to the St. Ayles skiff races?

    Seems like limiting a boat by LOA and then having a bunch of exceptions (like the Drake 17, which sounds almost a foot too long) is a little arbitrary; then maybe the little oarlock outriggers on the Peterborough skiff could be exempted too. It's been done in the American racing.

    The Gartside "Bob" stretched to the max allowed LOA might be the way to go, maybe in a light glued lap plywood version or skin on frame. In Bob the rake is minimized and waterline length maximized. Because this is a race not a cruise it doesn't need to be totally dry, just dry enough not to destabilize it. Or maybe a length-reduced Drake raceboat? A lot like Bob but a bit more rake in the ends.

    I suspect that even if the Gartside's Coastal Rowboat could be "exempted in" for length, it would be disqualified because it seems to only acquire reasonable stability with a very low centre of gravity. I modeled it in FreeshipPlus, and at 140kg (~300lbs) with the centre of gravity at 60 cm (2'), which is probably close for boat combined with a standing person, the boat has a negative righting arm at all angles of heel. Maybe ok if the rower is seated, but I'm guessing this boat would struggle with the standing up and turning around criterion unless you are one of those folks than can excel in log rolling contests.

    I'm wondering about how the standing up and turning around criterion is normally tested. Seems like the sea state, the wind and who does the standing up could all make a difference as to which boats qualify.

    Maybe there should also be bit more of a specific freeboard criterion, and a way to evaluate how partial decking could make up for lower freeboard.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thorne View Post
    The OP and the class are both Scots, so playing the Ugly Amuriken may not go over well at all... Easier to just go with a design that is wide enough to meet the gunwale-mounted-oarlock requirement.
    BUT BUT BUT

    Quote Originally Posted by Osbert View Post

    I'm very happy with my Drake, which has a special exemption from the rules, despite being a few inches too long!
    So exemptions, it seems can be made. Osbert, how did you get an exemption? If you can get an exemption, what keeps other small little fiddly bits on other boats from getting exceptions?

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Plans for this Peapod are going to be released soon. Maybe a rowing only version will be available.

    Will definitely be stable enough for the standing and turning around test.

    https://www.clcboats.com/modules/cat...es&code=peapod

    Woody

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Standing up and turning around seems a little odd. Some people can do that on a log. That seems more about the person than the boat.

    Is it OK to have Simone Biles do it - or does it have to be the rower?

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Canoe polers can safely jump, turn and land while standing in canoes. The good ones can straddle thwarts while they are doing it. I appreciate the desire to require a certain minimum stability in these boats, by banning outriggers to restrict minimum beam, and this requirement to try to ensure the boat is truly stable.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    The Peterborough skiff in post #8 is plenty stable enough to stand in, cast a fly rod, step over thwarts, etc without much risk of a swim. The folding oarlocks are there because they are a lovely historical touch from the Rushton pulling boats of the late 19th C, and because they let me use longer spoons when conditions are smooth. Your point is well taken about wanting to discourage very narrow hulls in a class conceived to promote safe and friendly competion without resorting to extremes of design or equipment.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    I think the practical test is the best. Even so, it can be misleading. I have a Gloucester Light dory that will throw you out of the boat if you step on the chine, but will not capsize until you stand on the gunwhale. Even then, it doesn't capsize, it just sinks.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    The Peterborough skiff in post #8 is plenty stable enough to stand in, cast a fly rod, step over thwarts, etc without much risk of a swim. The folding oarlocks are there because they are a lovely historical touch from the Rushton pulling boats of the late 19th C, and because they let me use longer spoons when conditions are smooth. Your point is well taken about wanting to discourage very narrow hulls in a class conceived to promote safe and friendly competion without resorting to extremes of design or equipment.
    We should remember that the folders were 5 bucks on a 100 dollar boat, not insignificant and the same is true today. We have to remember that it is the SCRA rule. I can think of lots of reasons why outriggers and sliding seats are banned, mostly having to do with surf, and rough water rowing. Practically speaking there is the problem of coming along side docks and boats which is where the folders are nice.
    The Hull Snow Row has gone to a fixed seat model this year for some of the same reasons.
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Jones View Post
    Plans for this Peapod are going to be released soon. Maybe a rowing only version will be available.

    Will definitely be stable enough for the standing and turning around test.

    https://www.clcboats.com/modules/cat...es&code=peapod

    Woody
    Double enders which is what the working boats were called are stable enough to be able to step into the hard corner of the topsides bottom bend and use rocking the boat to help you pull a trap. Working boats in the 14 to 15 foot range. The name 'peapod' really came along when summer people started arriving in Maine as did small ones which were built for recreation. Working pods were rowed up wind and may have been sailed home; but centerboard trunks etc are again an artifact of recreation as you can't have the trunk in the way when you are walking around in the boat working.
    Ben Fuller
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    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    Double enders which is what the working boats were called are stable enough to be able to step into the hard corner of the topsides bottom bend and use rocking the boat to help you pull a trap. Working boats in the 14 to 15 foot range. The name 'peapod' really came along when summer people started arriving in Maine as did small ones which were built for recreation. Working pods were rowed up wind and may have been sailed home; but centerboard trunks etc are again an artifact of recreation as you can't have the trunk in the way when you are walking around in the boat working.
    Correct! And with traditional designs we should always be aware of the differences between the lines & design of a boat, and the materials & weight when in use. Chapelle describes the peapods as being "very heavy" (or a similar phrase) -- so imagine something that size built from 5/4 or heavier planks that lives in the water all the time. People are often amazed at the low freeboard of my fir over oak Chamberlain Dory Skiff, as the ply boats built from the same plans have another strake or two out of the water -- because they're 1/3 the weight.
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    I had an older gentleman walk into my shop and hand over a beautiful set of Wherry lines for a 15 or 16' Wherry that he designed. He sort of dropped off the face of the earth. He was a naval architect and used it primarily as a tender. He said it was really fast, surprisingly stable given his calcs, and looked pretty. I should get those lofted and modeled for this Picnic Class.
    Clinton B. Chase
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    It would be interesting to see that wherry, Clint. Have you rowed the little SLRS, Fry? It would fit the picnic class rules as is....and as long as I’m pondering designs to fit the OP’s question, if Drake exempted in, wouldn’t the Herreshoff/Gardner skiff also?
    3EF5FE8A-788B-4B2C-B1D5-8A58CD961F04.jpg

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by John hartmann View Post
    It would be interesting to see that wherry, Clint. Have you rowed the little SLRS, Fry? It would fit the picnic class rules as is....and as long as I’m pondering designs to fit the OP’s question, if Drake exempted in, wouldn’t the Herreshoff/Gardner skiff also?
    My guess is that the Drake got opted in because one was there and the owner an outspoked proponent of coastal rowing. It's their rule and they can do what they like. If I was doing it on this side of the pond I'd use 17, 5.2 meters so that the existing fleet such as it is could get in, old ones like the Piscataqua wherry, ,aube 18 to let one person St Lawrence skiffs come and play.

    I do like the stablity, floatation, no slides or outriggers.
    Ben Fuller
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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Where are the Faerings, the Oselvers? I think Flomo's Faering can be built in 4mm plywood like Steve Redmonds Whisp and make a fine picknick boat. Where is Flomo?

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Some years ago i sold an 18ft Hanningfield Skiff to a Gent from North Berwick RC, grp simulated clinker & a fine boat. I later sold a 17ft Stretched Cosine wherry to another member of the same club, that was another cracking boat, pity about the length restriction.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    My guess is that the Drake got opted in because one was there and the owner an outspoked proponent of coastal rowing..
    Haha, you are quite perceptive Ben! We were wanting to start a new class that the Wemmyss skiffs and the like could be competitive in, but were not wanting to exclude boats that we knew of already and whose owners would be enthusiastic about taking part in single seat competition. Hence the specific exemptions for the Drakes and for the historic Royal West Sixteens. Luckily the rowers of the Drakes have been sufficiently tactful not to row to hard, as they have not won the class. In terms of flat out speed the Gartside Flashboat had probably done best, although Topher Dawson's self designed catamaran "Daylight" has done very well (see this month's Water Craft mag). It is reassuring though that the races tend to be won by the fittest, strongest, best rowers....... an indication that the measurement rules are doing their job whilst still allowing a fair amount of fun for boat builders and boat owners.

    Dissapointingly the Gartside Flashboat got through the stability test. We live in hope for the entertainment for the galleries that the test promises.

    Quote Originally Posted by keith66 View Post
    Some years ago i sold an 18ft Hanningfield Skiff to a Gent from North Berwick RC, grp simulated clinker & a fine boat. I later sold a 17ft Stretched Cosine wherry to another member of the same club, that was another cracking boat, pity about the length restriction.
    I think you are mistaken about the destination for the Cosine wherry....... or else it has been moved on. The Hanningfield skiff is a great boat (if a little bit low on freeboard for our waters) and gets well used in competitions such as the Great Tyne Row, Castle to Crane Race and Cork Ocean to City as a coxed double scull or randan. So it has a use in competition without needing to comply with the Picnic class rules. The smaller picnic class boats would not be used in competition at all if they were not protected to some extent against long thin boats by the rules. We want boats to get used (which is also why we want to boats used for racing to be useful, and not only good for racing)!



    Is anyone aware of any other single person fixed seat rowing classes that are raced? The only other example that I could find were in Finland....... and I have now lost my link to the measurement rules for that class.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tusitalla View Post
    Is anyone aware of any other single person fixed seat rowing classes that are raced? The only other example that I could find were in Finland....... and I have now lost my link to the measurement rules for that class.
    In the States there are fixed seat boats raced but the only class rules are no sliding seats and no outriggers. There is a distinction made between "livery boats" and "work boats" where the former would include all boats modern and traditional that were used only for people while the latter would be dories, peapods etc. I am not sure how organizers deal with sog dories, peapods. It's basically pretty loose and somewhat arbitrary. There are not enough of anyone type to do restrictions. If you did maybe you'd break it around 13' which maxes out a lot of tender based boats.

    I'd have the person turning around do it twice or make sure that it is continuous, no stops to retain balance. I've seen people stand up in kayaks and turn around very carefully.
    Ben Fuller
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    "Bound fast is boatless man."

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post

    I'd have the person turning around do it twice or make sure that it is continuous, no stops to retain balance. I've seen people stand up in kayaks and turn around very carefully.
    maybe we should redefine the axis through which they should turn.....

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    I think you are mistaken about the destination for the Cosine wherry....... or else it has been moved on. The Hanningfield skiff is a great boat (if a little bit low on freeboard for our waters) and gets well used in competitions such as the Great Tyne Row, Castle to Crane Race and Cork Ocean to City as a coxed double scull or randan. So it has a use in competition without needing to comply with the Picnic class rules. The smaller picnic class boats would not be used in competition at all if they were not protected to some extent against long thin boats by the rules. We want boats to get used (which is also why we want to boats used for racing to be useful, and not only good for racing)!
    .[/QUOTE]
    Owners name was David Pestell & the boat was called Gracie May, pretty positive he came from that area, though may have moved. I built another for myself & she is a cracker, with a 65sq ft balanced lug she is very quick of the wind or on a reach. To windward its oars time!

    The Hanningfield skiff is now built by Stebbings yard at Heybridge, you are right about the freeboard, that version was from a mould that had been cut down half a plank, next one i built i raised it back to where it should be & she was all the better for it. Originally built in the 1970's in large numbers as fishing skiffs for water authorities & sold as the Tidal Flyfisher.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Fuller View Post
    In the States there are fixed seat boats raced but the only class rules are no sliding seats and no outriggers. There is a distinction made between "livery boats" and "work boats" where the former would include all boats modern and traditional that were used only for people while the latter would be dories, peapods etc. I am not sure how organizers deal with sog dories, peapods. It's basically pretty loose and somewhat arbitrary. There are not enough of anyone type to do restrictions. If you did maybe you'd break it around 13' which maxes out a lot of tender based boats.

    I'd have the person turning around do it twice or make sure that it is continuous, no stops to retain balance. I've seen people stand up in kayaks and turn around very carefully.
    This would make so much sense. Maybe not just turning around twice, without stopping to steady yourself, but actually switching direction and doing it once clockwise and then counterclockwise.

    I have a prototype boat that has barely over 2' waterline beam and just over 3' beam overall. Definitely wouldn't qualify on the oar on gunwale criterion, but in a calm pond I have stood up in this boat without flipping it (I have photo evidence of this). I am not sure I tried to turn around but think I could. My balance is reasonable but not exceptional. I feel secure when seated in the boat even with 2' (crest to trough) chop but once when I tried to get in from a rock I dumped it even though the sea state was much calmer. In the end getting in and out easily may be much more relevant to having a boat that is useful beyond racing. Along my coast I'd have to search far and wide for a spot and really pick my day to get in and out of a very tender boat.

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    Default Re: What fast rowboats meet the requirements of the SCRA Picnic Class?

    have never experienced it. but this is a very interesting discussion to follow

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