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Thread: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

  1. #71
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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    So there is no evidence that anyone can show you that will change your mind about Trump, huh? This isn't about Hillary anymore, this is about Trump . . . and as a man who agrees with you that HC was a sh177y choice for president for a lot of real reasons, Trump is much much worse and far more criminal. Lets start with him using his cell phone; its the same as emailing with a personal email address and you don't see it, or do you . . . . and you just don't care?
    No, i’m saying nobody has shown evidence of his wrongdoing, collusion, or obstruction. So far, all claims of such are false. As far as who is the better to run the country, there are differing opinions, one is right and one is wrong, but the decision has been made. If Muler had evidence that would warrant Trump’s removal, you’d have heard it. Using a phone is not wrong, or illegal, unless you use an unsecured one for relaying classified information. It’s a false equivalence to the charges made by Comey and the IG, in their reports of hiliary’s misuse.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Surely you can work out the difference between an allegation and proof? It's about as basic a concept as one can think of.

    In investigations it's the norm to use terms like allegation. The "proof" comes when the court gives its ruling. Apart from everything else, it's much less confusing to make it clear what is still an allegation (ie something that has yet to be proven) and something that has in fact been accepted as true.
    And yet, Manafort has been imprisoned without the luxury of a conviction.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    No, i’m saying nobody has shown evidence of his wrongdoing, collusion, or obstruction. So far, all claims of such are false. As far as who is the better to run the country, there are differing opinions, one is right and one is wrong, but the decision has been made. If Muler had evidence that would warrant Trump’s removal, you’d have heard it. Using a phone is not wrong, or illegal, unless you use an unsecured one for relaying classified information. It’s a false equivalence to the charges made by Comey and the IG, in their reports of hiliary’s misuse.
    I think they are both wrong but know the degree to which Trump is bad for this country is far far greater. Hmmm . . .yeah, so here's the problem; you are unwilling to judge Trump by the same standard. This is why so many people dislike your side, you're not being honest. Based on your skewed standards, I can only come to the conclusion that you want to see the government diminished. I get it, but why destroy the rule law, why destroy education, why make healthcare unattainable, and why destroy protection of the environment?
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    And yet, Manafort has been imprisoned without the luxury of a conviction.
    What about all those people at the border? They've been detained and have had their children taken away, all without a trial. You're okay with that? Have you not read the Declaration of Independence?
    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
    . . . but not brown people.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    And yet, Manafort has been imprisoned without the luxury of a conviction.
    Because that is the normal way the law works in order to try to stop witnesses being contacted. Read section 3142. Having your bail revoked is not being found guilty of a crime, so of course the same level of proof is not required.

    To complain about such a well-known and commonly-used mechanism only when it affects someone like Manafort appears to be rather odd. Had you complained about this system, which is used internationally, before it affected someone from Trump's cavalcade? If not, why not? If you were quiet until it affected someone from Trump's cavalcade then it has to be said you appear inconsistent and the least, and probably hypocritical.
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-16-2018 at 06:44 AM.
    Has BigFella and SkyBlue on ignore.

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    What about all those people at the border? They've been detained and have had their children taken away, all without a trial. You're okay with that? Have you not read the Declaration of Independence?

    . . . but not brown people.
    We have differences of opinion, but that doesn’t make either of us a POS, for that fact. The difference between Manafort and the illegal border crossers is that he is a citizen, has posted bail, turned in his passport, wears a locating device, and has made no effort to avoid the proceedings of the court; in fact, he walked in, voluntarily, to the courtroom, with his lawyer, that he was led out of, in constraints.

    The folks at the border have little, or no documentation, are headed for detention centers where other unknown adults will be, and it is often unverifiable whether the children are related to, or the victims of, the adults they accompany. Putting children in adult detention, exposing them to abuse, would be downright criminal, don’t you think?
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Even the kids who say,"That's my Mum ! Help"?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    People have been imprisoned over many years , prior to trial, usually referred to as 'remanded in custody'. This is not unusual or wrong unless one believes no-one, under any circumstances should be relieved of their freedom until found guilty. so somewhere in between we have the bail system and various subleties like house arrest or confiscation of passport. The invocation of remanding in custody is usually when there is a high risk of absconding, or the suspect is of no fixed abode. The bail system though abusable is simply a way of ensuring the accused isn't likely to no-show at the trial, without seriously pissing off the whoever put up the 10 million in this case.
    It is therefore typical to use a phrase or word such as 'alleged' without a conviction, rightly so, and as DtC said earlier, innocent until proven guilty.

    In this case the accused allegedly breached the terms and conditions of his bail, by approaching witnesses, but if he denies that, he is still innocent until found guilty of that charge too. I think the judge or whatever title Mueller has will have no problem justifying his reasons for rescinding bail and invoking incarceration, but, if after all, the accused is found not guilty of all charges…… or pardoned …(!), He may have a case for wrongful arrest and incarceration. But it isn't likely to happen. And, If found guilty there is always appeal systems. This one is going keep us all exercised for some time me thinks.
    'C'est la vie' say the old folks it goes to show you never can tell

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris249 View Post
    Because that is the normal way the law works in order to try to stop witnesses being contacted. Read section 3142. Having your bail revoked is not being found guilty of a crime, so of course the same level of proof is not required.

    To complain about such a well-known and commonly-used mechanism only when it affects someone like Manafort appears to be rather odd. Had you complained about this system, which is used internationally, before it affected someone from Trump's cavalcade? If not, why not? If you were quiet until it affected someone from Trump's cavalcade then it has to be said you appear inconsistent and the least, and probably hypocritical.
    Bail is usually denied for reasons of danger to the community or flight risk. If talking to witnesses is tampering, then what do you call what the FBI is doing to Manafort, Flynn, Gates, and Papadopoulos?
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Bail is usually denied for reasons of danger to the community or flight risk. If talking to witnesses is tampering, then what do you call what the FBI is doing to Manafort, Flynn, Gates, and Papadopoulos?
    An investigation?
    Somewhere between Murder and Suicide, there is a place called Merseyside.

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    we have differences of opinion, but that doesn’t make either of us a pos, for that fact. The difference between manafort and the illegal border crossers is that he is a citizen, has posted bail, turned in his passport, wears a locating device, and has made no effort to avoid the proceedings of the court; in fact, he walked in, voluntarily, to the courtroom, with his lawyer, that he was led out of, in constraints.

    The folks at the border have little, or no documentation, are headed for detention centers where other unknown adults will be, and it is often unverifiable whether the children are related to, or the victims of, the adults they accompany. Putting children in adult detention, exposing them to abuse, would be downright criminal, don’t you think?
    all men
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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    An investigation?
    If you’re Russian, maybe.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Bail is usually denied for reasons of danger to the community or flight risk. If talking to witnesses is tampering, then what do you call what the FBI is doing to Manafort, Flynn, Gates, and Papadopoulos?
    You seriously don't understand the function of law?

    There is no doubt that we, as a people, have to have an element of faith in our justice system, that's the nature of government, faith. We all know to well that the police can be corrupt and that goes all the way up to the FBI and the AG . . . Our system is imperfect but a far better system that what has existed in all of human history. Yes, it can be better but to simply dismiss it because you disagree with it's findings or it's target is lunacy. If the DOJ presented evidence that Clinton committed a crime, good, bring her to trial, but you seem to not care what evidence exists on Trump. Manafort's connection with Russian oligarchs is enough on it's own. Trump, being the smartest guy, should have known that when he hired him, we all did. That alone is, if not criminal on Trumps part, should be enough to inject a very reasonable doubt on Trump's intentions. That with all of the contacts with Russians of importance that, by the way, according to Trumps own lie, never happened, should cast enough doubt. There is something going on with Trump's relationships with the Russians that is not in the best interests of this country and you choose to not see it. Why?
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by L.W. Baxter View Post
    just when i think i can't be more astounded.

    defending witness tampering. drawing equivalence between an indicted defendant covertly contacting witnesses in his own case to law enforcement investigating criminal activity by mandate and for the benefit of society. unreal level of unrealness.
    That one was a whole new level of spin.
    Tom

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Wilkinson View Post
    That one was a whole new level of spin.
    It's a lower intelligence version of spin that can be seen on all sides. I wish integrity was innate in human DNA, the opposite seems to be so.
    "Please be more specific or we'll choose to order a cheaper bilge-rat to replace you."

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by isla View Post
    an investigation?
    lol
    Don't worry I'm happy

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Bail is usually denied for reasons of danger to the community or flight risk. If talking to witnesses is tampering, then what do you call what the FBI is doing to Manafort, Flynn, Gates, and Papadopoulos?
    It is alleged that Manafort not just talked to witnesses, but was coercing them to give false testimony.
    On another subject, I wonder how Manafort enjoyed his first night in the slammer. This morning, I don't suppose he got his usual gourmet breakfast prepared by a personal chef....
    I'm thinking that's he getting a touch of reality and will give Trump until Monday to pardon him before flipping.
    I was born on a wooden boat that I built myself.

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    No, i’m saying nobody has shown evidence of his wrongdoing, collusion, or obstruction. So far, all claims of such are false. As far as who is the better to run the country, there are differing opinions, one is right and one is wrong, but the decision has been made. If Muler had evidence that would warrant Trump’s removal, you’d have heard it. Using a phone is not wrong, or illegal, unless you use an unsecured one for relaying classified information. It’s a false equivalence to the charges made by Comey and the IG, in their reports of hiliary’s misuse.
    You are one twisted mister.

    You say "nobody has shown evidence of his wrongdoing, collusion, or obstruction".

    Well, there's PLENTY of evidence, you just don't count it as evidence.

    You think 'evidence' is the same thing as 'proof', or that's what you want others to think, anyway.

    You seem to specifically focused on Mueller when you say "nobody", so your complaint seems to center on the fact that Mueller is observing the FBI protocols that Comey ignored, yet you complain loudly that Comey ignored them.

    That's twisted, pretzel logic.

    Your assertion that "If [Mueller] had evidence that would warrant Trump’s removal, you’d have heard it ", is simply pig-headed and flies in the face of reason.

    Mueller's mandate is NOT to 'get Trump', but to investigate the possibility of complicity between the Trump Campaign and Putin's election-tampering.

    Once again, Mueller is a consummate professional, he has put together a team of crack investigators, and he will continue to fill in all the blanks until he's done.

    Then he will make a report to Rosenstein (as I understand it), then Congress gets the report.

    After that, you, mdh, MIGHT get to see what was discovered, but maybe NOT, depending on your security clearance and what the Congress wants you to know.

    These things are as they should be.

    Finally, your Mendacious Mussolini doesn't NEED an unsecured phone to give classified info to the Russians.

    When he wants to do THAT, he invites them to the Oval Office and tells them to their faces.
    Rattling the teacups.

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    And yet, Manafort has been imprisoned without the luxury of a conviction.
    You really don't understand the US legal system. Manafort did this to himself by violating the terms and conditions of his bail.

    Jeff C

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Poor people who canít afford bail know all about being jailed without a trial.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    That Anti-American mindset, illustrated by our Reds here, is what’s wrong with America. Subversives, the lot of them. They want to burn the country to the ground.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    That Anti-American mindset, illustrated by our Reds here, is what’s wrong with America. Subversives, the lot of them. They want to burn the country to the ground.
    Absolutely!
    mdh and his ilk would be crowing like a flock of red roosters if it was Hillary in Manafort's place.

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Originally Posted by mdh
    It’ll have little, to no effect, on my life. I was not dependent on Trump winning, i’m just glad he did, for the unselfish reason that the country is better off not having hiliary in any office, much less President. I adhere to the respect for liberty that would prefer ten guilty men go free, rather than one innocent man be railroaded by, and for, political reasons.
    Interesting. How many voters would you be willing to disenfranchise, in order to prevent one illegal vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh
    No, i’m saying nobody has shown evidence of his wrongdoing, collusion, or obstruction.


    Not yet. The investigation isn't over.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh
    So far, all claims of such are false.


    Really? NOTHING has been proven false. We simply haven't seen the results of the investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh
    If Muler had evidence that would warrant Trump’s removal, you’d have heard it.


    You may or may not, when the investigation is over. It's not over yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh
    Using a phone is not wrong, or illegal, unless you use an unsecured one for relaying classified information.
    Using a phone to tamper with witneses and/or suborn perjury isn't a crime, in your book?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh
    And yet, Manafort has been imprisoned without the luxury of a conviction.
    Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of other men who are in jail without bail... it's quite commonplace, in thiscountry. Why does Manafort rate an exclusion?

    The difference between Manafort and the illegal border crossers is that he is a citizen, has posted bail, turned in his passport, wears a locating device, and has made no effort to avoid the proceedings of the court; in fact, he walked in, voluntarily, to the courtroom, with his lawyer, that he was led out of, in constraints.
    The reason that Manafort turned in his passport and wore a locating device was precisely because, when facing the possibility of decades in jail, and with a lot of money and extensive overseas connections to possibly escape the country, he was quite reasonably a flight risk. Tell me why that wasn't the case.
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by amish rob View Post
    Poor people who can’t afford bail know all about being jailed without a trial.

    Peace,
    Robert
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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    I appreciate your efforts, and such willingness to engage such a malcontent yahoo- but to what end? Reason is wasted on subversives. YMMV, of course.
    There's a lot of things they didn't tell me when I signed on with this outfit....

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by George Jung View Post
    That Anti-American mindset, illustrated by our Reds here, is what’s wrong with America. Subversives, the lot of them. They want to burn the country to the ground.
    Sorta. Except I bifurcate. The bulk of them - the blithe passengers on the bus like bubbles, erster, thud et.al. - don't want that. They have simply swallowed the false narratives that allow the people with money to make more money, gain more control, make more money, gain more control... etc. And even the drivers of the bus aren't steering toward nihilism. They are simply so single-minded and short-sighted that they don't see where their greed is leading.
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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Hiliary was never restricted from talking (tampering) with any witnesses in her case. Harvey Weinstein, close friend of hiliary, who is charged with doing physical damage to people, is out on bail. This is the kind of thing that chris249 was referring to as hypocritical.

    ev∑i∑dence
    [ˈevədəns]
    NOUN
    the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
    "the study finds little evidence of overt discrimination"
    synonyms: proof
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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Hiliary was never restricted from talking (tampering) with any witnesses in her case.
    Oh, come ON! Could you be any more disingenuous?

    Hillary wasn't indicted for any crime.... why WOULD she be 'restricted'?
    "Reason and facts are sacrificed to opinion and myth. Demonstrable falsehoods are circulated and recycled as fact. Narrow minded opinion refuses to be subjected to thought and analysis. Too many now subject events to a prefabricated set of interpretations, usually provided by a biased media source. The myth is more comfortable than the often difficult search for truth."







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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    Hiliary was never restricted from talking (tampering) with any witnesses in her case. Harvey Weinstein, close friend of hiliary, who is charged with doing physical damage to people, is out on bail. This is the kind of thing that chris249 was referring to as hypocritical.

    ev∑i∑dence
    [ˈevədəns]
    NOUN
    the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
    "the study finds little evidence of overt discrimination"
    synonyms: proof
    Fantastic spin there mdh! Manafort was ordered not to have any contact with pretty much everyone that could skew his case in his favor. It was a prerequisite for his being allowed out on bail. If he was so stupid or arrogant to disregard this requirement and gets caught, he and only he is to blame. Actions have consequences. This has nothing to do with Hillary, she wasn't out win bail with a court case pending.

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by skuthorp View Post
    From here Donald's wilful and ongoing destruction of the instruments of the State, the interference in press freedom, and the abrogation of alliances won at a cost of many lives is a much larger crime.

    And I do think you should examine why Donald is in pro Russia. I think he reckons that Russia and China are the coming powers and he wants a bit of the action.
    Agree on all counts, skuthorp

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by McMike View Post
    There is something going on with Trump's relationships with the Russians that is not in the best interests of this country and you choose to not see it. Why?
    Such as? Give a few examples for your fellow Americans who might need some convincing. Can you do that?

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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Such as? Give a few examples for your fellow Americans who might need some convincing. Can you do that?
    Manafort Was in Debt to Pro-Russia Interests, Cyprus Records Show. Conveniently, Wilbur Ross, Trump's current Secretary of Commerce, was the vice-chairman of the board of Bank of Cyprus PCL, the largest bank in Cyprus. Ross was also was the leader (or “Grand Swipe”) of the secret Wall Street fraternity, Kappa Beta Phi. Ross has a long and very sorted record of duboius banking manuvers . . But Trump told you the swamp was being drained . . . anyway,
    Financial records filed last year in the secretive tax haven of Cyprus, where Paul J. Manafort kept bank accounts during his years working in Ukraine and investing with a Russian oligarch, indicate that he had been in debt to pro-Russia interests by as much as $17 million before he joined Donald J. Trump’s presidential campaign in March 2016.
    . . . he volunteered to work for Trump "For Free" and was a part of the team for 144 days.

    Anyway . . . start with that, let me know when it sinks in and I'll continue. For what it's worth, if you take away what the NYT has found, because I know you don't trust them, just the relationship between Trump, Ross, and Manafort should tell you that Trump has far to many conflicts to be president. Any half wit would come to this conclusion if he or she were being honest with themselves.
    Last edited by McMike; 06-16-2018 at 09:24 AM.
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    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Oh, come ON! Could you be any more disingenuous?

    Hillary wasn't indicted for any crime.... why WOULD she be 'restricted'?
    You want me to go through the whole list, again, of criminal acts committed by hiliary and her associates? And point out again the hypocrisy evident in the fact that she wasn’t charged? Is there any doubt that had Manafort not participated in the election, he would be enjoying the good life right now? Oh, come on, yourself.

    Marc Penn, who was Clinton’s lawyer during Whitewater, Hanson, McCarthy, York, Dershowitz, Calabresi, Turley, and many other educated, legal scholars see these matters much the same as i do. On your side, who’ve you got? Schiff, Warner, Madcow, Coldbert, Maher, and Acosta?

    Denigrating people who disagree with you is a puerile sign of inability to support your position. Even if you are a “doctor”.
    Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country. John Fn Kennedy. (D)

  34. #104
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    23,169

    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by mdh View Post
    You want me to go through the whole list, again, of criminal acts committed by hiliary and her associates? And point out again the hypocrisy evident in the fact that she wasn’t charged? Is there any doubt that had Manafort not participated in the election, he would be enjoying the good life right now? Oh, come on, yourself.

    Marc Penn, who was Clinton’s lawyer during Whitewater, Hanson, McCarthy, York, Dershowitz, Calabresi, Turley, and many other educated, legal scholars see these matters much the same as i do. On your side, who’ve you got? Schiff, Warner, Madcow, Coldbert, Maher, and Acosta?

    Denigrating people who disagree with you is a puerile sign of inability to support your position. Even if you are a “doctor”.
    Laughable fever firehose!
    Rattling the teacups.

  35. #105
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    afloat with at least 6' of water under me.
    Posts
    55,985

    Default Re: Bail Revoked, Paul Manafort Jailed

    If there were criminal acts, she'd be in jail mdh? As she isn't in jail well, you figure it out.

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