Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: Classic above and Fast below?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Classic above and Fast below?

    Anyone know of designs that are classic-looking (or inspired) above the waterline yet sporting a go-fast bottom and keel below.

    By "classic" I mean to include "spirit of tradition" type designs.

    Spirit yachts come to mind.

    Chuck Thompson

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    St. Helens, Oregon
    Posts
    952

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Bill Garden's "Toadstool" kinda fell into that category: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...arden-schooner

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    23,989

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Any of the W class boats Here's a 37: http://brooklinboatyard.com/37-w-class-w-37/

    A 46: http://brooklinboatyard.com/46-w-class-w-46/

    Some of the big ones:

    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Now, there's a long story...
    Posts
    1,540

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    There's the 8 meter PLEIONE (USA-38).

    https://sites.google.com/site/8mrpleione/
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Nice suggestions.

    Those W-Boats are very nice. I need to read up more on them. It's unclear to me if they are all related or not. Apparently they come out of Artisan Boatworks. At least some (all?) are based on White designs.
    Last edited by chuckt; 06-13-2018 at 06:12 AM.
    Chuck Thompson

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    23,989

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckt View Post
    Nice suggestions.

    Those W-Boats are very nice. I need to read up more on them. It's unclear to me if they are all related or not. Apparently they come out of Artisan Boatworks. At least some (all?) are based on White designs.
    Actually - a lot of them come out of Brooklin Boatyard - maybe all the big ones? There was one at the WBS - IIRC, the last one at Newport. Mighty purty. Oh yeah - mighty spendy too.

    W Class Bats is a company. They have an unfinished web site & also a facebook page. http://www.w-class.com/

    https://www.facebook.com/wclassracingyachts/
    "If it ain't broke, you're not trying." - Red Green

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,249

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    What size boats are you interested in? The range of that 'spirit of tradition type ' is very wide.
    "It's a pirate's life for me. Savvy??"

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    What size boats are you interested in? The range of that 'spirit of tradition type ' is very wide.
    Small cruiser size. Say 38 to 48. Which is what I have (Concordia yawl) and probably what I keep but if I could trade for anything it would be something with the classic look but capable of a much faster cruising speed.
    Chuck Thompson

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    1,650

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    You want much faster cruising speed on the same waterline? So like 1.5 kts faster on a good day on some points of sail?

    Enjoy the Concordia, if you want to get there fast, take a plane.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Quote Originally Posted by J.Madison View Post
    You want much faster cruising speed on the same waterline? So like 1.5 kts faster on a good day on some points of sail?

    Enjoy the Concordia, if you want to get there fast, take a plane.
    Maybe. A Concordia may be slower than you think. 6-7 knots at best. Those Spirit yachts will add a lot more than 1.5 extra even if you discount their marketing claims.
    Chuck Thompson

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Whangarei, New Zealand
    Posts
    991

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Any Sharpie Style yacht if you dump the center board and internal ballast, then replace it with a bulb on the end of a fin.
    Zq

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    The Netherlands
    Posts
    457

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    timthumb.php.jpg

    Like this? From Andre Hoek Design.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    14,600

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    There is a wee bit of eye rolling at some of the Spirit yachts among some of my peers...just so ya know.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    St. Helens, Oregon
    Posts
    952

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zane Lewis View Post
    Any Sharpie Style yacht if you dump the center board and internal ballast, then replace it with a bulb on the end of a fin.
    Zq
    Or this one from Tom Wiley:
    File0028.jpg

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,249

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Can't imagine trading any Concordia for a 38-48' modern SOT cruiser straight up or anywhere near it. There are an awful lot of Concordias on the market right now. I suspect those who appreciate them may be aging out of ownership.
    "It's a pirate's life for me. Savvy??"

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,553

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Can't add the picture because it's too large - but this may fit your needs, except for the lack of standing headroom forward...

    https://www.ericwsponberg.com/boat-designs/bagatelle/


    Tom wanted a lightweight boat that could plane in under 20 knots of wind, point really well and sail fast upwind, and yet still look like it belongs in good company sitting next to a Concordia yawl—in his words, “a modern classic.” Specific features include: very lightweight construction (Douglas fir veneers over western red cedar strip-planking); chined hullform in the stern sections for planing; lifting keel for easy trailerability; B&R rig (no backstay, triple spreaders) for high lift, large sail area, and high speed; and water ballas
    Sometimes you've gotta leave the kibble out where the slow dogs can get some....
    ... Roy Blount, Jr.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Heres a good one. Joel White 31



    Chuck Thompson

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,021

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Duke View Post
    Can't add the picture because it's too large - but this may fit your needs, except for the lack of standing headroom forward...

    https://www.ericwsponberg.com/boat-designs/bagatelle/
    Like the hull shape. I'd like the cabin more classic-looking.
    Chuck Thompson

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Now, there's a long story...
    Posts
    1,540

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Well, the more details are helpful. The 8mR I posted is at the upper end of that range.

    Speed is such a difficult thing to quantify. "I want a faster boat" can mean different things. Once, a long time ago, I remember discussing the New England PHRF ratings with a friend. We were trying to decide how much faster these "newer, uglier" boats are, and couldn't think of a good way to compare, so we pulled up the PHRF ratings to see what the handicappers decided (Yes, there was also beer involved). Not exactly science, but a good way to compare. We learned some interesting things:

    Concordia Yawl base rating: 168.

    Pre-WWII 8mR: 111.
    Modern 8mR: 72. Curiously, that's the same as a J35.

    Morris M36 Shoal Draft: 120.

    Hinckley Bermuda Yawl: 159.

    Sabre Spirit: 90.

    Alerion Express 38: 111.

    Rustler 33: 120.

    Morris M42: 96.

    OK, so that's just a sample. It doesn't really say how fast each boat is, but it does give an indication how boats would compare if they were all raced on the same day on the same course in typical New England sailing conditions. Assuming a 10 mile course, there's an expectation that a Morris M42 would finish 12 minutes ahed of your Concordia Yawl, and that Sabre Spirit would be a minute ahead of the Morris.

    Considering Jim Taylor designed both the Sabre and the aforementioned 8, I'd touch base there...
    Heute ist so ein schöne Tag...

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    NZ
    Posts
    2,151

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    Lot more to consider that just speed, typically a modern hull shape (read performance oriented, not out and out racer) will be faster. All boats unless planing are limited by wetted surface and waterline, power to weight ratios etc. What a modern design will tend to do is provide a LOT more room, comfort and amenities for a given size.
    whatever rocks your boat

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    2,071

    Default Re: Classic above and Fast below?

    To work out the theoretical average speed using PHRF ratings, add 550 to the PHRF rating. That will tell you how many seconds each boat will take to sail a nautical mile, theoretically*. Divide 3600 (ie the number of seconds in an hour) by that figure to get theoretical average in knots.

    Modern 8m or J/35: 550+72=622= 5.8 knots average
    Concordia: 550+178=718 = 5 knots average
    Incidentally, a J/24 is about 174, so very similar to the Concordia.


    * The calculations come from PHRF and end up with a number close to the IMS/ORCi GPH, which is calculated on a 10 knot wind and assuming the boat was sailing a circle and therefore encountered every wind angle equally during that mile. The "PHRF=550" estimate is normally within about 10/secs a mile of the ORCi/IMS system if I recall correctly.
    Last edited by Chris249; 06-16-2018 at 05:42 PM.
    Has BigFella and SkyBlue on ignore.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •