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Thread: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

  1. #1
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    Default BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed



    A British Airways pilot who turned up for work after drinking three double vodkas has been jailed.
    Julian Monaghan boarded a plane to Mauritius at Gatwick Airport but was led away in handcuffs after colleagues smelt alcohol and called police.
    He had 86mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood in his system in January - the legal limit for a pilot is 20mg.
    Monaghan, 49, admitted being over the prescribed limit and was jailed for eight months at Lewes Crown Court.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-44451094

    Nick

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    ...the legal limit for a pilot is 20mg.

    Well, you learn something every day.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Is that limit on all airlines, or just BA?
    Or should we start calling it BAC (blood alcohol content)?

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Pretty sure the US FAR limit is .04 BAC and 8 hours between drinking and flying. Airlines can set more stringent standards.
    Tom

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Max 2 beers within 12-20 hours at my airline.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    But I think jail is wrong. Therapy is what's needed.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    But I think jail is wrong. Therapy is what's needed.
    He may get access to therapy in jail.
    Jail is a reminder to other pilots not to go on the p!$$ before flying.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    He didn't fly.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    An old aphorism from a dear friend/pilot. A Yank.

    "Eight hours from bottle to throttle." I suppose it might hinge on the, ahem, size of the bottle?

    I dunno. I think maybe 'zero tolerance' might be a good idea? Different people have different reactions to alcohol. Why any level of impairment tolerated; especially on an airliner?

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    He didn't fly.
    Sheesh David,
    He was due to fly but was escorted off the plane smelling of alcohol.
    What was the point of that post?
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    W
    hat was the point of that post?
    He is pointiung out that the system works.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    I partied hard with a half dozen BA pilots in HK in 2004. As morning came on, four of them took me to a local place that had American style breakfasts...the other two went to their planes!

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by robm View Post
    W

    He is pointiung out that the system works.
    This doesn't seem like a shining example of the system working. Is this the first time he did it, or the first time he got caught?
    Tom

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    But I think jail is wrong. Therapy is what's needed.
    jail and therapy would be better.
    for the pilot to admit that there is a problem, he needs to have a life changing event.
    how many would say that this was the first time the pilot showed up for work under the influence?
    Allan of the Grove
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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Jail has a way of driving the point home.

    Of course, some people don't learn, no way no how, but jail time can give a different perspective to others. I hope they put him to work for his time!
    Last edited by ishmael; 06-12-2018 at 07:05 PM.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Nope. I don't agree.

    Jail had nothing to do with it. The system worked. His fellow employees turned him in because they knew it was the safest thing to do, and the best thing for the flight and for all concerned.

    Jail did not influence him, or his workmates, in the smallest degree. In fact, if I was one of those workmates, the fact that the Captain might end up in jail might actually move me to try to keep it in-house, to not report it that day at the airport.

    The threat of jail will also not stop anyone drinking in the future. Alcoholism is a problem that has other sources, and the threat of jail does not stop someone from drinking.

    Programs exist to deal with alcoholism on the job. They can be quite effective.

    Jail seems to me to be a knee-jerk reaction, useless and pointless. Vindictive and punitive, designed for publicity, and in no way creating a solution.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    an enlightened viewpoint dave
    thank you for posting it
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    ...the legal limit for a pilot is 20mg.

    Well, you learn something every day.

    Well, admittedly it's not Nam.. 0-:



    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post

    ...

    Jail seems to me to be a knee-jerk reaction, useless and pointless. Vindictive and punitive, designed for publicity, and in no way creating a solution.
    Agreed.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Thanks, Paul.

    I don't expect universal agreement of course, but in my experience addiction is rarely influenced by threat of punishment.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    I see both perspectives, as usual, but the threat of jail can act as a deterrent...if you've known what it means.

    Threat of punishment to keep addiction at bay? No, no way. But it can act as a deterrent to doing stupid things while addicted...and high. Ask me how I know.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    Thanks, Paul.

    I don't expect universal agreement of course, but in my experience addiction is rarely influenced by threat of punishment.
    There are two completely different factors here.
    I agree that the threat of punishment will not peemptively influence the addition.
    But our legal system is based on punishment. Get caught breaking the law, get punished. It may not be the most effective way of contolling criminal behaviour, but it is what we have.
    In many cases, a person withan addiction needs some motivation to make the decision to end the addiction (a life changing event for example).
    So , if you feel that the pilot shouldn't do jail time, then every person charged with DUI should also not incur any punishment.
    In an ideal world, no body should be in jail. Every one should get the root cause of the criminal behaviour treated without ant punishment.
    But that ideal view of the world is not reality.

    It would be much cheaper, and more effective, to treat addicts (drugs and alcohol) with rehab, But the bottom line is that most people need a reason to comply with a rehab program.
    The best route (for every one involved) is for the courts to mandate a rehab program, and to expunge the conviction if the person completes thae program and stays clean (manditory testing for a period of time). Don't comply, your ass is in a cell. Still, the arrest should be made, a few nights in jail for the person to consider if rehab is the best path to take.
    Allan of the Grove
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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Drunk Pilots Have Path Back to Cockpit

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB125815793649847831

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    I guess what bugs me is that the driver charged with DUI has actually committed a crime. He or she drove.

    But in this case the pilot is sentenced to jail and may not even have been in the airplane at all. Never turned a wheel. Simply demonstrated intent.

    Again, the system WORKED here. The fellow's workmates turned him in and he didn't fly and was removed from further flight operations by his company. Jail was utterly irrelevant.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    I guess what bugs me is that the driver charged with DUI has actually committed a crime. He or she drove.

    But in this case the pilot is sentenced to jail and may not even have been in the airplane at all. Never turned a wheel. Simply demonstrated intent.

    Again, the system WORKED here. The fellow's workmates turned him in and he didn't fly and was removed from further flight operations by his company. Jail was utterly irrelevant.
    You can be charged with being drunk in charge of a vehicle
    Drunk in Charge of a Motor Vehicle

    Is it ever a good idea to sleep in your car having had too much to drink?

    Most people are fully aware that it is a criminal offence to drive a vehicle after having consumed so much alcohol that they exceed the prescribed limit, but it is also an offence to be in charge of a vehicle whilst drunk or unfit through drugs.
    Motorists who are sleeping, or sitting in their vehicle have found themselves facing serious charges despite the fact that they have not actually driven or attempted to drive a vehicle. Although a Drunk in Charge allegation is not as serious as Drink Driving, if found guilty you will not only be in receipt of a criminal record but it will also cause serious implications on your ability to drive as the court could impose:

    • a mandatory 10 penalty points or a discretionary driving disqualification
    • A fine of up to £2500 and / or a range of sentencing options including community service or a prison sentence of up to 3 months

    How is the offence defined?

    In order to be charged with an offence of “drunk in charge of a vehicle " under the Road Traffic Act 1988 (Sections 5), the defendant must be:

    • over the legal limit for alcohol (in the blood, urine or breath)



    • and in charge of the vehicle;
    • and the motor vehicle must be in a place to which the public has access.

    How is “in charge” defined?

    There is no definition of “in charge” and the courts have been keen to avoid an all-embracing test.
    In determining if a person is in charge the court will consider:

    • Whether he was in the vehicle, if so where, or how far he was from it;
    • What he was doing at the time;
    • Whether he was in possession of the key for the ignition;
    • Whether there was any evidence of an intention to take some form of control of the vehicle;
    • Whether any person was in or near the vehicle and if so the particulars of that person.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Here in NY, you can be charged with DWI if you are behind the wheel and the key is in the ignition. Even if the engine is off. Even if you are sleeping. Even in your own driveway.

    Basically, you get arrested and charged for the potential to do harm. Which is what many DWI's are anyway--arrests without (before) the tragic accident.

    Kevin
    There are two kinds of boaters: those who have run aground, and those who lie about it.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    ^ Same here. A man was charged with DUI when he pulled over to sleep it off.

    I never flew drunk though I had a pilot or copilot in the other seat who was hungover a few times. Matuse will do that.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    you can sleep in a cobra?
    Simpler is better, except when complicated looks really cool.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    ...
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    I flew 18 hours without shutting down during a 24 hr "Christmas truce". We shot well over a thousand rockets defending three fire bases during that fight.

    We'd fly to the refuel pad (takes about five minutes to gas up) then over to the rearm point and roll back to flight idle. During that 15 minutes we'd... get out to pee or wolf down some C rations the rearm crew would bring us or lock the shoulder harness, switch the comm panel to silence the radios and nod off.

    The guys would bang on the canopy to wake us up and we'd be off again.

    You learn to sleep where and when you can. I can still do it to my wife's great frustration.
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    For a DUI charge the driver only has to have the keys to the car in his/her possession while sitting in the car.
    The pilot didn't take control of the aircraft because he was prevented from doing so by others. that shouldn't give him a pass.
    Jail time is utterly irrelevant in most criminal activity. We have a punishment based judicial system, if the pilot should get a pass in this case then so should every other criminal.
    Sure, in this case the system worked, but how many times has an impaired pilot fly while the others turned a blind eye and covered for him?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Hadfield View Post
    I guess what bugs me is that the driver charged with DUI has actually committed a crime. He or she drove.

    But in this case the pilot is sentenced to jail and may not even have been in the airplane at all. Never turned a wheel. Simply demonstrated intent.

    Again, the system WORKED here. The fellow's workmates turned him in and he didn't fly and was removed from further flight operations by his company. Jail was utterly irrelevant.
    Allan of the Grove
    "never send a ferret to do a weasel's job.."

  31. #31
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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Pless View Post
    you can sleep in a cobra?
    Not just in them but on them and around them.

    Nap time.jpg

    The guy on the ammo bay door has the best bed of the whole lot. No bugs.
    Nap time 2.jpg
    The best statement I've seen from this latest carnage came from a student who lived through it -

    "My generation will not allow this to continue!"

    Remember voting age is 18. Read it and weep reds.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by John of Phoenix View Post
    I flew 18 hours without shutting down during a 24 hr "Christmas truce". We shot well over a thousand rockets defending three fire bases during that fight.

    We'd fly to the refuel pad (takes about five minutes to gas up) then over to the rearm point and roll back to flight idle. During that 15 minutes we'd... get out to pee or wolf down some C rations the rearm crew would bring us or lock the shoulder harness, switch the comm panel to silence the radios and nod off.

    The guys would bang on the canopy to wake us up and we'd be off again.

    You learn to sleep where and when you can. I can still do it to my wife's great frustration.

    Some 'truce'.
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    I had heard his defense was he was a pilot on a long international flight and wouldn't be on ' fly ' duty for at least eight hours and that he was at 84mgs 'only just ' over the car driver's limit . Why have a permissible limit, say 20 mgs. there are countries that have NO alcohol in the blood limits, Sweden I think for one. I disagree with the assertions that someone , anyone is an alcoholic by being 'over the limit' in common parlance and in a situation where it doesn't matter by habitual standards. Define alcoholic , not that it's worth it.
    Deny alcoholism too.
    But know this . There are plenty of fatal incidents with stone cold sober pilots, skippers, drivers, cyclists, dog walkers…..
    I had thought pilots couldn't have any detectable blood alcohol levels , effectively meaning they couldn't have a drink at all within maybe 36 hours of flying.

    Don't get me wrong, but should i have the choice of flying with a stone cold sober pilot or one who had a couple of beers a few hours ago, or one who just lost his dog and is having a marriage break up and his kid's just been arrested for graffitting a bus shelter…..
    'C'est la vie' say the old folks it goes to show you never can tell

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    Default Re: BA Gatwick Airport double vodkas pilot jailed

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy View Post
    I had heard his defense was he was a pilot on a long international flight and wouldn't be on ' fly ' duty for at least eight hours and that he was at 84mgs 'only just ' over the car driver's limit . Why have a permissible limit, say 20 mgs. there are countries that have NO alcohol in the blood limits, Sweden I think for one. I disagree with the assertions that someone , anyone is an alcoholic by being 'over the limit' in common parlance and in a situation where it doesn't matter by habitual standards. Define alcoholic , not that it's worth it.
    Deny alcoholism too.
    But know this . There are plenty of fatal incidents with stone cold sober pilots, skippers, drivers, cyclists, dog walkers…..
    I had thought pilots couldn't have any detectable blood alcohol levels , effectively meaning they couldn't have a drink at all within maybe 36 hours of flying.

    Don't get me wrong, but should i have the choice of flying with a stone cold sober pilot or one who had a couple of beers a few hours ago, or one who just lost his dog and is having a marriage break up and his kid's just been arrested for graffitting a bus shelter…..
    IIRC, the "sober-up" time is one standard drink per hour. If he'd had the equivalent of six standard drinks.... he'd have been sober at duty time. Is a shot of vodka equivalent to one standard drink? He'd have done better to have taken a sleeping pill... but then, it may have meant he'd be drowsy at "you're on" time.

    I was breathalysed a couple of weeks back... after about six hours on the motorbike, along with the other 13 riders. The cop doing the testing was annoyed at his colleague for having pulled us over. We all passed.
    "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome and charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime" Mark Twain... so... Carpe the living sh!t out of the Diem

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