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Thread: The baker and the Supreme Court

  1. #36
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    ^ So, a country club can still exclude blacks and Jews? Am I reading that right?

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    My understanding is that the baker would make the cake and sell it to the guys, just not write the message. For purposes of argument, let's assume it so.

    Would you guys write a message "Hate and kill the (X)" because you were in interstate commerce? Build a boat for a customer with that statement on the transom, put there by your hands?
    Last edited by Osborne Russell; 06-11-2018 at 03:12 PM.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    When dealing with private individuals, the Federal civil rights statutes only reach as far as public accommodations. Thus, while it is unlawful to discriminate on the basis of race or national origin in hotels, restaurants, theaters, public transportation and public parks, the Federal civil rights laws do not make it unlawful for bona fide private clubs and religious organizations to discriminate on whatever basis they choose.
    The US of A, the land of the Free (to be bigots)
    The UK does not make any exceptions on discrimination
    The Equality Act 2010 prohibits certain private clubs and associations from discriminating against, harassing and victimising certain classes of persons. The Act also places an obligation on such private clubs and associations to make reasonable adjustments for disabled people.
    What sort of private clubs and associations are covered by the Act?

    The Act applies to private clubs and associations who have 25 or more members and whose membership is controlled by rules involving a selection process.
    A club that is open to all members of the public will be treated under the Act as a “service provider” and will be subject to separate but similar prohibitions and obligations.
    https://www.inbrief.co.uk/discrimina...-associations/
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    ^ So, a country club can still exclude blacks and Jews? Am I reading that right?
    Read the last paragraph. Trump got caught in NYC not renting apartments to blacks he was running for daddy Freddy.
    I'll go one step further. In Palm Beach, Florida, tough community, a brilliant community, a wealthy community, probably the wealthiest community there is in the world, I opened a club, and really got great credit for it.
    No discrimination against African-Americans, against Muslims, against anybody. And it's a tremendously successful club. And I'm so glad I did it. And I have been given great credit for what I did. And I'm very, very proud of it. And that's the way I feel. That is the true way I feel.
    Left out of Trump's victory lap for racial justice: it's illegal in Florida for a club like Mar-a-Lago, a private club with more than 400 members that also hosts public events and functions for non-members, to discriminate against "any individual because of race, color, religion, gender, national origin, handicap, age above the age of 21, or marital status."
    Trump, in other words, is "very, very proud" of himself for following a pretty basic anti-discrimination law.
    Last edited by S.V. Airlie; 06-11-2018 at 03:40 PM.

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    I really don't know what the opinion dealt with. The government is obliged to "not be hostile to religion"? No it isn't. The Commission, or whatever, was hostile to the baker, such that his rights were adjudicated without due process? Hm. A guy is charged with elder abuse and extortion. He goes into court, and the judge hates his A, obviously. Thinks Ms. Judge, "low down POS." The judge is hostile, man, you can see it in her face and hear it in her voice. Does that mean the guy can't get a fair trial?

    The distinction between compelling commerce and compelling art is what I'm talking about. Ask an artist if there's a distinction to be made.

    It was not dealt with. How is kicking this guy (the baker, not Rum Pirate) in the crotch the next best thing?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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  6. #41
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I really don't know what the opinion dealt with. The government is obliged to "not be hostile to religion"? No it isn't. The Commission, or whatever, was hostile to the baker, such that his rights were adjudicated without due process? Hm. A guy is charged with elder abuse and extortion. He goes into court, and the judge hates his A, obviously. Thinks Ms. Judge, "low down POS." The judge is hostile, man, you can see it in her face and hear it in her voice. Does that mean the guy can't get a fair trial?

    The distinction between compelling commerce and compelling art is what I'm talking about. Ask an artist if there's a distinction to be made.

    It was not dealt with. How is kicking this guy (the baker, not Rum Pirate) in the crotch the next best thing?
    My post #17 may shed some light. At least it is a kick off point for research.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    My post #17 may shed some light. At least it is a kick off point for research.
    I've been slogging through the court's opinion for what seems like weeks. Slow going. I know there's a there there, somewhere. Got to be.

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...6-111_j4el.pdf
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
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  8. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    My understanding is that the baker would make the cake and sell it to the guys, just not write the message. For purposes of argument, let's assume it so.

    Would you guys write a message "Hate and kill the (X)" because you were in interstate commerce? Build a boat for a customer with that statement on the transom, put there by your hands?
    There is a difference between supporting an idea that violates the law (as in "Hate and Kill...") and one that celebrates a union that is today entirely lawful.

    You want an example? How about this: a cake that celebrates "Happy So-and-So was executed today!" That would be a problem for me, but would be legal. How about we debate that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    There is a difference between supporting an idea that violates the law (as in "Hate and Kill...") and one that celebrates a union that is today entirely lawful.

    You want an example? How about this: a cake that celebrates "Happy So-and-So was executed today!" That would be a problem for me, but would be legal. How about we debate that?
    OK. My argument would be, the hands that write the words, and the soul that moves them, are mine.

    That has to have a limit, so what will it be?

    Can I get back to you?
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I've been slogging through the court's opinion for what seems like weeks. Slow going. I know there's a there there, somewhere. Got to be.

    https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinion...6-111_j4el.pdf
    It would seem that this is why they found the judgement unsafe.
    The Commission’s hostility was inconsistent with the First Amendment’s guarantee that our laws be applied in a manner that is neutral toward religion. Phillips was entitled to a neutral decision maker who would give full and fair consideration to his religious objection as he sought to assert it in all of the circumstances in which this case was presented, considered, and decided.


    This, to me is BS,
    To Phillips, his claim that using his artistic skills to make an expressive statement, a wedding endorsement in his own voice and of his own creation, has a significant First Amendment speech component and implicates his deep and sincere religious beliefs.

    It is as much art as copying out text longhand, and it s as much his sentiments as if he was asked to write out the opening lines of King Lear.

    Do you consider the sighnwriter who painted this

    To be an artist or a craftsman.
    artist

    noun

    • 1A person who creates paintings or drawings as a profession or hobby.

    1.1 A person who practises or performs any of the creative arts, such as a sculptor, film-maker, actor, or dancer.

    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 06-11-2018 at 04:13 PM.
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  11. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    OK. My argument would be, the hands that write the words, and the soul that moves them, are mine.

    That has to have a limit, so what will it be?

    Can I get back to you?
    I have admitted on other threads that I have mixed feelings about this baker case for exactly this reason. I would rather that the baker's decision cost him business in the community and found his competition growing as a result, but these things tend to grow legs with time. It's a baker today and an employer tomorrow. Where do we draw the line?

    Let me try it this way: The baker does not want to decorate the cake. Can the hall refuse to rent the room for the reception? Can the florist refuse to provide the flowers?

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    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
    Note that the First Amendment does NOT say:

    Congress shall protect the right of religious people to impose their beliefs on others.

    The baker's a Christian? Great. He can be a Christian.

    He is not, however, entitled to discriminate against non-Christians--unless I missed that part of Christianity that says "Thou shalt not bake cakes for gay weddings." According to Christianity's own sacred texts, Jesus performed miracles for nonbelievers all the time. But this guy can't bring himself to bake a cake?

    But that's beside the point, because the entire argument that having to bake a cake for a non-Christian is an infringement of religious freedom is ridiculous. It is merely a prohibition--a crucial one--of the baker's attempt to force his beliefs on others.

    Given the current make-up of the Supreme Court, I am completely unsurprised they got this so wrong.

    It's sad to see a grown man so fearful and homophobic that he would rather embroil himself in a years-long court battle than bake a cake. But again, given the hateful anti-gay messages from most Christian sects, completely unsurprising.

    Tom
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post

    Given the current make-up of the Supreme Court, I am completely unsurprised they got this so wrong.


    Tom
    The SC did not say he can refuse to sell to gays. They said that the original trial was unfair. There is a big difference.
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    The SC did not say he can refuse to sell to gays. They said that the original trial was unfair. There is a big difference.
    Yes, you are correct, and I mis-spoke. They didn't really rule on the question itself, so they haven't gotten it wrong--yet.

    Tom
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    . . .given the hateful anti-gay messages from most Christian sects . . .
    Y'know, this sentence would bother me a lot if I were a Christian. While there is certainly all too much of of this, 'most Christian sects' is factually wrong, unless you mean only conservative Evangelical Christian groups. Although the fundamentalists would love to have people think that 'Christian' means 'bigoted biblical literalists like us', the US Christian population is roughly evenly divided between Evangelical Protestants, mainline Protestants, and Catholics. The mainline Protestants are generally pretty progressive; there's a UCC church near here with a big rainbow flag outside. Even the Catholics have come a very, very long way from 'hateful anti-gay messages.' Plenty of nastiness on the fundamentalist right still, alas.
    Last edited by Keith Wilson; 06-12-2018 at 09:46 AM.
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    Their cake is dry! It taste like sawdust. Their icing is like Elmer's paste!




    Elmer's is a fine product! But doesn't belong on a wedding cake! IMO!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    It is as much art as copying out text longhand, and it s as much his sentiments as if he was asked to write out the opening lines of King Lear.
    If he were being asked he could refuse. He's being told.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Do you consider the sighnwriter who painted this . . . .

    To be an artist or a craftsman.
    Both, but I think that's the wrong way to address the problem. What's needed is a distinction that can be made to work in the legal context. If it doesn't make a damn bit of sense is some other context is a different problem.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    I have admitted on other threads that I have mixed feelings about this baker case for exactly this reason. I would rather that the baker's decision cost him business in the community and found his competition growing as a result, but these things tend to grow legs with time.
    He's making a claim of right under the law. I say he's entitled to an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWSmith View Post
    It's a baker today and an employer tomorrow. Where do we draw the line?

    Let me try it this way: The baker does not want to decorate the cake. Can the hall refuse to rent the room for the reception? Can the florist refuse to provide the flowers?
    Some formulation along the lines of "content and/or expressive conduct?

    You can rent the hall but you can't force the guy (reminder, the fact that you pay him doesn't make it non-compulsory) to stand at the door and say "Welcome gays, I am sure am glad you're here, I wish more people were gay."

    Trouble is, he does that for hetero people. He's discriminating, no getting around it.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    Their cake is dry! It taste like sawdust. Their icing is like Elmer's paste!

    Elmer's is a fine product! But doesn't belong on a wedding cake! IMO!
    Have you actually tasted one of his cakes?

    Is this concocted 'fake news' or actual fact?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rum_Pirate View Post
    Have you actually tasted one of his cakes?

    Is this concocted 'fake news' or actual fact?
    Yes, I have! Prove I haven't!
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    Quote Originally Posted by SKIP KILPATRICK View Post
    Yes, I have! Prove I haven't!
    Wow, what a response.
    Why would I need to prove you haven't?

    I take your word that you say that you have tasted one of his cakes with a bit of icing.

    I certainly don't expect people to blatantly lie on the forum as to what they have or have not done.

    Can the cakes be purchased by post?
    Or did you visit his shop before or after the 'issue' occurred?
    If after, was it as a protest?

    If after, why contribute to his income by (presumably you did) purchasing one?
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    You can rent the hall but you can't force the guy (reminder, the fact that you pay him doesn't make it non-compulsory) to stand at the door and say "Welcome gays, I am sure am glad you're here, I wish more people were gay."

    Trouble is, he does that for hetero people. He's discriminating, no getting around it.
    Maybe I need to go to more weddings, but I don't remember this. I do remember (and I hate) the "For the first time, please welcome Mr. and Mrs..." I'd rather a family member say something more personal.

    I do get the distinction between baking the cake and decorating it to say something the baker finds objectionable. I just wish the baker had a little more compassion for the human beings, recognized that their own sexual orientation is not a threat to him, and wished the newlyweds a happy life.

    I also have enough gay friends and relatives not to take my business to him in the future regardless of the occasion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    . . .given the hateful anti-gay messages from most Christian sects . . .
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Y'know, this sentence would bother me a lot if I were a Christian.
    Yet your discomfort with the statement has nothing to do with whether it is true.

    Looking at various Christian sects in the U.S.:

    SOURCE

    Looking at official church positions, we have Catholics (23.9% of all Christians in the U.S.), Baptists (15.4%), Methodists (4.6%), Pentecostals (4.6%), Missouri Synod Lutherans (1.1%), Adventists (0.6%), Church of the Nazarene (0.8%), Anglican Church in North America (0.3%)--sects that account for 51.3% of all Christians in the U.S.--hostile to gay marriage on doctrinal grounds.

    Throw in at least part of the nondenominational evangelical churches that make up an additional 6.2% of all Christians in the U.S., and you can see that my statement, however much it bothers you or anyone else, is essentially true.

    Your statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    'most Christian sects' is factually wrong, unless you mean only conservative Evangelical Christian groups
    is wishful thinking.

    Tom
    Last edited by WI-Tom; 06-12-2018 at 10:28 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    If he were being asked he could refuse. He's being told.
    You miss my point. The defence claimed "a wedding endorsement in his own voice and of his own creation, " which is bollocks. He is a craftsman adding his skill with a piping bag, he is not a creative artist making the thing up from his imagination. I would expect as a customer to specify the sort of decoration, probably the colours and also any wording on such an important cake. It is apparent from his website that the customer make the choice not Mt Phillips. They were not buying a kids party Halloween cake.

    Both, but I think that's the wrong way to address the problem. What's needed is a distinction that can be made to work in the legal context. If it doesn't make a damn bit of sense is some other context is a different problem.
    Yes, you need clear laws that discrimination is verboten, for any reason.
    Last edited by Peerie Maa; 06-12-2018 at 05:01 PM.
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Thankfully this fascist Left attack on a baker and all of our freedoms here in the USA has been roundly defeated!


    score one for the Good Guys!
    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 06-12-2018 at 06:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    You miss my point. The defence claimed "a wedding endorsement in his own voice and of his own creation, " which is bollocks. He is a craftsman adding his skill with a piping bag, he is not a creative artist making the thing up from his imagination. I would expect as a customer to specify the sort of decoration, probably the colours and also any wording on such an important cake. It is apparent from his website that the customer make the choice not Mt Phillips. They were not buying a kids party Halloween cake.
    I understand your point. It's based on your distinction between craft and art. That distinction is not settled in the world of craft or art, and if it were, wouldn't necessarily be helpful in this context. We're talking about what someone ought to be forced to do.

    The problem, as you say, is that, how much of it is him writing it, when it's the customer who specifies the words? Suppose that is was his practice to compose the message? The total cake concept? Is it right that he should be compelled to compose a message that offends his conscience? Or be forced to give up the part of his trade that composing messages brings? IOW under some set of facts, he will be the composer, the artist. What if the customer wants a depiction of anal sex, but since he can't draw worth a S, he wants the expert cake decorator to do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Yes, you need clear laws that discrimination is verboten, for any reason.
    That has the virtue of simplicity. You can't refuse to do for one customer, based on the customer's membership in a protected class, what you do for another customer, not a member. So start practicing your buggery doodles.

    As for clarity, the clearest law may yet violate an older and higher law, the law of universal human rights.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    As for clarity, the clearest law may yet violate an older and higher law, the law of universal human rights.
    Every law limits individual rights. Why are you not arguing to remove them all?

    Then we could rape, kill, torture, kidnap, steal from, and defraud each other to our hearts' content.

    The world might become an uglier place, but at least everyone's sacred individual rights would be protected.

    Tom
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    I understand your point. It's based on your distinction between craft and art. That distinction is not settled in the world of craft or art, and if it were, wouldn't necessarily be helpful in this context. We're talking about what someone ought to be forced to do.
    He is not forced. If he does not like being a decent un-bigoted shopkeeper, he can either change his job, or employ a decent human being to do the work.
    The problem, as you say, is that, how much of it is him writing it, when it's the customer who specifies the words? Suppose that is was his practice to compose the message? The total cake concept? Is it right that he should be compelled to compose a message that offends his conscience? Or be forced to give up the part of his trade that composing messages brings? IOW under some set of facts, he will be the composer, the artist. What if the customer wants a depiction of anal sex, but since he can't draw worth a S, he wants the expert cake decorator to do it?
    U R Silly

    That has the virtue of simplicity. You can't refuse to do for one customer, based on the customer's membership in a protected class, what you do for another customer, not a member. So start practicing your buggery doodles.

    As for clarity, the clearest law may yet violate an older and higher law, the law of universal human rights.
    Nope
    Universal Values

    The core principles of human rights first set out in the UDHR, such as universality, interdependence and indivisibility, equality and non-discrimination,
    http://www.un.org/en/sections/univer...law/index.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    This controversy has been widely misinterpreted. The SCOTUS decision was targeted at the Colorado Civil Rights Division, because they used a religious test to decide how to handle the issue. Had they NOT done that, the decision might well have gone the other way. Precedent was not set, with this decision, and what might look like a victory for religious interests was anything but.
    Perhaps there was precedent, is the basis any different from this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burwel...by_Stores,_Inc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    Perhaps there was precedent; is the basis any different from this . . .
    Very different. It was based on the specific procedure used in this case by the Colorado Civil Rights Commision. It has no wider application.

    How is the baker's religiously-based bigotry different from the following?

    "I never lynched anybody; I just don't want those n!ggers in my store."
    "I'm not a Nazi or anything; I just don't want to sell to Jews."
    "I'm as fond of the ladies as anyone, but this is a man's job."
    "I'm a reasonable guy, but California's a white man's land, and those Chinese have no place here."
    "I'm not a bigot, but I don't want any Catholics in my neighborhood"
    "I know they've had it hard, but I'm not going to hire any Irish."
    "For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations,
    for nature cannot be fooled."

    Richard Feynman

  31. #66
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Keith Wilson View Post
    Very different. It was based on the specific procedure used in this case by the Colorado Civil Rights Commision. It has no wider application.

    How is the baker's religiously-based bigotry different from the following?

    "I never lynched anybody; I just don't want those n!ggers in my store."
    "I'm not a Nazi or anything; I just don't want to sell to Jews."
    "I'm as fond of the ladies as anyone, but this is a man's job."
    "I'm a reasonable guy, but California's a white man's land, and those Chinese have no place here."
    "I'm not a bigot, but I don't want any Catholics in my neighborhood"
    "I know they've had it hard, but I'm not going to hire any Irish."
    You forgot "Have you stopped beating your wife?"
    Enjoy a good rum on the rocks at sunset.

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by WI-Tom View Post
    Every law limits individual rights. Why are you not arguing to remove them all?
    It is to secure these rights that governments are instituted among men.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    He is not forced. If he does not like being a decent un-bigoted shopkeeper, he can either change his job, or employ a decent human being to do the work.
    Suppose he rejects the choice you're attempting to force on him. Then you'll have to do more than attempt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    U R Silly
    Address the issue if you're able.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peerie Maa View Post
    Nope

    The core principles of human rights first set out in the UDHR, such as universality, interdependence and indivisibility, equality and non-discrimination . . .
    Including discrimination against belief.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

  34. #69
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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by woodpile View Post
    Perhaps there was precedent, is the basis any different from this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burwel...by_Stores,_Inc.
    Totally different. Hobby Lobby is based on a statute that only applies to closely held corporations. The cake case is based on supposed defects in the Commission's handling of some kind of hearing.
    He's a Mexican. -- Donald Trump.
    America cannot survive another four years of Barack Obama. -- Governor Chris Christie (R) New Jersey
    It wasn't racism, it was an attack on Christianity. -- Fox News
    Crying white mothers are ratings gold. -- National Rifle Association

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    Default Re: The baker and the Supreme Court

    Quote Originally Posted by Osborne Russell View Post
    Suppose he rejects the choice you're attempting to force on him. Then you'll have to do more than attempt.
    then if ever the US of A drags its arse into the 21stC he will have to obey the laws that outlaw discrimination or go out of business.


    Address the issue if you're able.
    If you are going to rely on a stupid argument based on putting hard core pornography on a cake then you have lost it. I am thinking Dunning-Kruger lost it.


    Including discrimination against belief.
    No, against Religion, which is where the Commission shot themselves in the foot. However that is not a blank check for discriminating on the basis of gender, or colour, or religion or for any other half baked reason.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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